CT Why was Yoda so weak?

Also, I find myself amused by the puritan nature of many Star Wars fans regarding this subject. Even if Luke was shown being taught how to use a lightsaber to a more effective degree in The Empire Strikes Back, that doesn't suddenly nullify everything that Yoda taught him. He still taught him when to show mercy. Hell, a part of the EU even placed further emphasis on this. Relate this to how Luke acted towards Vader when he defeated him in the throne room.

Considered honorable among Lightsiders, it allowed for a victory by causing minimal physical damage. - Wookiepedia entry on the technique of Cho Mai

And what did Luke do? Once Vader was incapacitated and unable to fight, he yielded and denied wrath and retribution in place for calm and mercy. He was taught when to not take a life in the heat of combat. A predicament many Jedi find themselves in due to the nature of their role in the galaxy.

 

They also don't seem to understand how Jedi aren't total pacifist monks, they don't consider themselves warriors but they are trained for defensive combat and martial skills as established the moment we are introduced to the concept of a lightsaber as the weapon of a Jedi Knight in ANH.

You can be spiritual and anti-war and yet believe in self defense and the defense of others and honing physical attributes in order to achieve it.

 

Kuro I'm going to be up front with you about your argument considering Yoda and the possibility of his views being calcified. While I see your point, given Yoda's circumstances and subsequent isolation/exile on Dagobah, I think he's had an incredible amount of time to ponder upon his mistakes and how tradition might have hindered the core philosophy he shares with Luke when he arrived. I believe, that as a wise individual, he wouldn't be entirely against it. In many ways, the Sith's return to power made him a greater Jedi than he already was (mentally) and allowed him to teach Jedi who would use his teachings to exceed him (which, after all, is the goal of a master/mentor). I think this quote summarizes my viewpoint quite well.

“Wisdom…. comes not from age, but from education and learning."

 

Exactly. On Degobah, what use did he really have of a lightsaber? It was more about surviving day to day and staying sane.

 

Especially when his life's work fell apart before his very eyes.

 

Kuro why the hell would you say "the real Yoda."

Have you ever thought that maybe Yoda learned from his mistakes in the prequels. It was only until his exile on Dagobah that he learned the error in the logic of the original Jedi Order. Of course Yoda is different in the OT. Nobody goes through a traumatic experience like he did in the PT without learning, changing, and growing as a person.

 

I'm tired of this snobby attitude towards the prequels. Whether you like it or not, they exist and are forever canon and an important part of the SW saga. It's all equally "real".

 

That was also my impression. By the time of TESB, Yoda realized how mistaken the Jedi had been and how dearly they paid for those mistakes. That's why he seemed so different.

Maybe some of the problem is it may not have been entirely clear (in the the PT movies) just how out of touch the Jedi had become during the PT era. Especially with how rushed Anakin's fall was. Who knows...

 

I think Lucas wanted to make this more clear hence why he reversed a few shots in the blu-ray version of Attack of the Clones. Notice now immediately after Yoda chooses to save his friends instead of stopping Dooku, Lucas edits in the shots of Yoda looking sad and remorseful and like he failed. I think Lucas wants us to see that it is at this moment that Yoda realizes putting your friends above duty is always wrong, explaining his attitude in ESB.

I think Yoda did learn from the events and failures of the PT and is a big part of what grants him his wisdom in the OT.

 

They used the Lightsaber because as Dooku said, "This contest cannot be settled by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a Lightsaber." Yoda was there to kill Sidious and Sidious needed to defend himself and kill Yoda. Simply using the Force wouldn't get the job done. Yoda chose to retreat because he couldn't be Palpatine and because he needed to survive in order to train the new Jedi that would one day rise.

The PT didn't make Obi-wan a liar. TESB and ROTJ did. Saying that doesn't make him a pathological liar. Saying that is only a lie. Telling him that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker is not a lie either, since even Vader admits that he is not Anakin and that he killed him.

And that's a lie how? Yoda taught Obi-wan as we learn in the PT. Obi-wan was just as reckless when Yoda taught him, as Luke was.

How is that a lie? What, because he doesn't say it out loud that somehow makes it a lie?

Correct. That was the point of the duels between Anakin vs Dooku and Luke vs Vader.





They both wanted to kill their enemy and had used their emotions to defeat them, but whereas Anakin killed Dooku because he wanted to, Luke spares Vader because he doesn't want to kill his own father. Anakin cannot forgive Dooku for all the things that he's done for the last dozen years, but Luke can forgive his father for the last two dozen years. Besides, Luke shows us that he still considers the Lightsaber to be a weapon of the Jedi. Since, he know, bothered to pick it back up and put it on his belt.



But then, what do I know.

Nothing about Yoda is different in the OT because of the PT. His comments about wars not making you great, does not take away from the idea that he was a warrior himself and had taught others to be warriors. Hell, he still taught Jedi to be warriors in the first place when you think about it. Yoda's point to Luke was that he came there looking to learn how to fight evil and be a great warrior, but Yoda points out a truth that fighting in wars does not make you anything other than a war monger. He doesn't have a Lightsaber because he's not intending to leave Dagobah to fight anymore. He can still train Luke without needing a saber himself, which we see in AOTC when he's teaching the Younglings with a remote. Yoda didn't teach advanced combat, that was reserved for other Jedi like Cin Drallig who taught various Jedi how to fight with a living opponent.



Yoda's job was to teach the Force to the Younglings. Part of the training was with seeker remotes the same as what we see Obi-wan do with Luke. A training method designed to help one to use the Force and connect to it. Lucas remained consistent with that part of the story.

 

As a kid watching ROTJ i always mistakenly thought Luke's lightsaber fell down one of the endless shafts when he threw it but I've sicne realized it just lands on the floor somewhere in the throne room allowing him to take it back after the Emperor is killed.

 

He no longer had access to the Jedi Temple's gym and extensive set of free weights and machines, and the food on Endor was sub-optimal.

You stop lifting, you stop eating, you get weak, bro.

 

I wouldn't say Yoda was 'weak'. In the prequels, he used the force to augment his speed and strength during battle. There was no need to do this in the OT.

However, I do see what you mean. We may have to accept it as another prequel issue.

He lost to Sidious because he was outclassed in every way.

 

Probably because someone turned him into a Muppet. Muppets aren't known for their strength.

 

Simply put he was weak because he was old and also the special affects weren't there

 

Darn straight. Fascinating discussion overall.

 

He fancies himself a connoisseur of great cinema and a "true" Star Wars fan. He's picking and choosing the things in SW that are "cool" and "acceptable" to like. How could you appear as a highbrow film enthusiast if you liked that CGI abomination in the prequels. Or the puppet in TPM. Which isn't real Yoda either even though it is practical, because... he says so. I mean, look at his avatar. It's black and white AND it's from Akira Kurosawa's Yojimbo, a certified classic. Killed two birds with one stone there. This guy clearly knows his stuff. He is practically the reincarnation of Roger Ebert. His word on movies is the LAW.

 

Haha okay now, let's not get carried away. However much he may dislike the prequels, Kuro is still a Star Wars fan like us. I think, given time, he may warm up a little to the prequels, or not, I don't really know. Either way, let's not get a thread locked by making this personal.

I would like to reiterate what CT1138 said, that he may have gained strength. It always seemed so near effortless when he lifted that X-wing. I think he is much calmer on Dagobah, but not weaker. He has simply grown as a person and realized his past mistakes. Still strong as ever though.

 

He's not really doubting whether or not Kuro is a Star Wars fan (I mean, why else would he be on a Star Wars forum?), he's just mocking his annoying tendency of lording his opinion over everybody else, ignoring evidence that refute his own points, implying that those who like the prequels are lesser than him when it comes to "cinematic taste", and throwing a bitch fit whenever anyone implies that Yoda can "gasp" ACTUALLY DEVELOP.

 

Oh believe me, I know. I'm just trying to keep it positive. If this thread descends into mocking people, it will get locked, and nobody will ever know why Yoda was so weak!

Also, the response to negativity should never be more negativity, that's just counterproductive.

 

One of my favorite movies is CALIGULA. I also posted a thread geeking out when I discovered that one of the stars of BLOOD SUCKING FREAKS was in a STAR WARS film. You can’t get much more lowbrow than BLOOD SUCKING FREAKS.

Disliking the prequels has nothing to do with being highbrow. It has to do with being a real person (who really only posts on this forum thanks to chronic insomnia).The fact is that I’ve never met a person in real life who likes these movies. Not my buddy I get weed from. Not my co-worker I carpool with. Not even random people I chat up at bars. I have literally never met a single person in real life who likes the STAR WARS prequels. Hell, during a job interview once, I mentioned that one of my hobbies involved writing about movies. The interviewer asked me what some of my favorite movies were. When I mentioned STAR WARS, the interviewer said, “I hope you only mean the first three and not those awful prequels.” From his tone of voice, I could tell he would’ve immediately rejected anyone who liked the prequels (I ended up getting the job).

And I say this as someons who has met people with strange taste in movies. While I was vacationing in Canada at the end of August, I met a guy who considers CALIGULA to be the greatest movie ever made. About a year ago, I tried hitting on a woman who considers FREDDY GOT FINGERED to be one of the funniest movies she’s ever seen. About 5 years ago, I dated a woman who named I SPIT ON YOUR GRAVE as one of the all-time great movies (she liked the fact that Jennifer Hills “gets back at ’em!”). A friend of mine once told me, “You know, I was talking to my fiancée’s mom, and she told me I’d really like IRRÉVERSIBLE. What kind of person does woman think I am?” (Even though his fiancée’s mom was actually right- he does like IRRÉVERSIBLE.)

Yet I’ve still yet to meet a person who likes the prequels. Let’s face it. Most people despise these movies. I have literally met more people who like BLOOD SUCKING FREAKS, I SPIT ON YOUR GRAVE, FREDDY GOT FINGERED, and/or CALIGULA than who like the prequels. I’ve met people who will claim that THE STAR WARS HOLIDAY SPECIAL was better than the prequels (“at least THE HOLIDAY SPECIAL has Bea Arthur in it”). Yet not a single person who likes the prequels. I’ve met people who will claim that BATTLEFIELD EARTH was better than the prequels.

 

If you need a reason in order to preserve immersion or "suspension of disbelief"...you can write it down like this:

We really don't know much about Yodas species, the biology of his species. We dont know how his body ages. Perhaps within his species, there is a sharp drop in cell replication and telomere preservation at the very end of his life span, so that as an organism, he is able to keep reasonably energetic and healthy up until advanced age, and then declines sharply/quickly when at the end of his lifespan.

Kind of like a bee.. buzzes around laboriously, until, one day, it just drops from the sky dead...

 

anakinfan edit: Nope. Referencing drug use is not allowed.

Oh I forgot to mention that almost my entire church years ago had a screening of the PT and OT. Guess which was loved more....