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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Did TFA make the OT pointless?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Weavile, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Yes and No. As I said at the time of it's release I felt that it was trying to emulate ANH so much down to being a "stand-alone" like ANH in the sense that it's in part framed as being something where you don't have to know what came before. Things did happen before (like things happened before ANH). It did that but only in part. The other aspect of it was they it wanted you to be intrigued about what came after whereas ANH effectively "finished". Even though more could happen after if that was the end then the story is virtually over because the Death Star is destroyed and the Imperial system will fall apart with no Death Star and no Senate.

    I think they wanted it both ways. Much like I-III, V and VI frame Star Wars into Ep IV:ANH so VIII and IX with frame TFA's story connection to I-VI beyond it being supporting backstory.

    I don't know what "evidence" has to do with anything. There is no support for anything said by anyone. All we really know for absolute sure is from Lucas himself. There were grand-children. There is only one grand-child in the ST.

    A few other things that seem likely is that as per the novels the other grand-child was Leia and Han's daughter. It could be that concept was taken and she was transformed into Rey.

    Now it could be that other than being a young girl that has Force powers that is all the crossover.

    I don't know what "evidence" has to do with anything. There is no support for anything said by anyone. All we really know for absolute sure is from Lucas himself. There were grand-children. There is only one grand-child in the ST.

    A few other things that seem likely is that as per the novels the other grand-child was Leia and Han's daughter. It could be that concept was taken and she was transformed into Rey.

    Now it could be that other than being a young girl that has Force powers that is all the crossover.
     
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  2. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Cool, that's the first double post I've seen in a single post... ;)
     
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  3. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Except there is evidence, from the TFA art book and from other others involved. If you want to continue to ignore these things just so that you can continue to proclaim that "Lucas would never do this or that" then please have the honesty to admit it's just your wishful thinking and bias, rather than say it with such definitive tone.
     
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  4. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I feel that "What would George have done?" is a different topic.

    As for the actual topic of the thread, I feel that no part of the Saga has been rendered pointless. What this third trilogy seems to do so far is show us that fighting the good fight is never as easy as just taking out the bad guys and then living happily ever after. There is always more work to be done to maintain peace and justice, because evil will always come back in one form or another.
    The new Republic thought they had things under control, that they were safe, so they just left the First Order alone.
    Luke thought that he had things under control and repeated Obi-Wan's mistake ("I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.").
    History repeated itself because, just like in real life, people didn't really learn their lessons, even when they thought they did.

    That seems to be one of the main themes of the trilogy and I happen to like it. It's like the fairy tale is forced to face reality.
     
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  5. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Yup, winning a war is not the same as keeping the peace. It's chaos after a dictatorship falls. Just look at Irak.
     
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  6. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    ANH *can* stand alone, but it is not a stand alone film in the same way an Indy film is, which is to say, by virtue of other films which connect to it. If "Raiders 2" had been about the attempt to get the ark out of the hands of the corrupt "top men" then Raiders would no longer have been a stand alone film, even though it could be viewed comprehensively that way.

    My point was that TFA was already connected narratively to the six other Star Wars movies, so it's inappropriate to judge it by the same basis one judges a stand-alone movie. Personally, as an individual movie, I found it entertaining. But when put alongside the six other movies, the absence of the next two is the only thing that stands out to me.

    I'm hopeful that Rian takes the story in an entirely new direction.



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  7. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    I get the similarities to ANH, but IMO the overall film is different (and good) enough to provide a kind of saving grace for this "rehash" idea. I personally loved it, and the only gripe I had re: similarities to ANH was Starkiller Base. But honestly, even Han kind of makes fun of the idea when he says "Okay...so, it's BIG." That made me laugh out loud and pretty much quelled any disappointment I had about it, since it was almost like they were saying "yeah, we KNOW this is just like the Death Star, but just try and enjoy it!" instead of trying to fool us into thinking it's something it's not. But the underlying storyline, including the way it ended really kind of show they are going in a much different direction.

    What I think will happen is that after seeing the entire ST completed, it will cause us to see TFA in a whole different way-as part of a whole, rather than its own thing, where it's all we have to go on (like right now).

    As far as making the OT pointless? I suppose I can see the logic in that idea. I don't really feel that myself though. Cos first of all this is 30 years later-which is a long time. Secondly, they reference how things got this way in the ever-growing library of material that takes place between ROTJ and TFA. The aftermath series in particular helps a lot with this sentiment. Makes it crystal clear how just because the Emperor and Death Star are destroyed, that doesn't mean the empire as a collective throws their weapons down and hands up, and things immediately turn to peace. Bloodline even further portrays how even a new government can still have trouble forming when people disagree as to how to handle it.

    Besides, the ST wouldn't be very interesting at all if everything was peaceful and the Rebel Alliance undisputedly won with the events or ROTJ and the new Jedi order is built, etc. I think the ST put the galaxy in a logical state for things, considering how everything in the PT AND the OT went down. Having no real threat or antagonist storyline would make for a pretty boring trilogy IMO.
     
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  8. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Another point is that the Star Wars saga is not *about* the state of the GFFA, that's just the setting. It's *about* the people and their relationships. So to say that TFA renders the OT pointless because there's still war going on is actually to miss the point of the OT.


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  9. Pacified_llama

    Pacified_llama Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Yes, quite. But the problem then becomes one of that which is seen and unseen. ANH had a linear and uncomplicated plot, but was based off deep running mythological and spiritual themes that have a rich heritage in literature and the human experience. You have to dig beneath the surface to find them - but they are distinctly there, and have widely been recognized as being there, not just by fans, but by academics and critics as well.

    While I don't doubt that people level criticism at TFA for being thematically devoid (which is false, as you correctly note), my criticism is not about that. Indeed, my criticism is restrained for the moment because I cannot make any reasonable comparison to the OT until the ST is fully complete and released. If there is one criticism I make now, let it be that TFA is too ostentatious, and leaves too little to the imagination. I would also stress on strong terms that the themes of legacy, and family, to which I have referred, are inherently caught up in traditional storytelling in the OT (and indeed the PT as well). TFA - and TLJ so it seems - try to defy traditional roles - this is the distinguishing point. I would argue that the end result for TFA is a series of complex, difficult-to-follow character motivations, which makes for good surface detail excitement, but a lack of cohesion, and capacity for deeper symbolism - therefore the Star Wars element of a cohesive Saga is lost, and as a result TFA depends on brand and visual stylistics to reaffirm its place in the SW franchise.

    This, of course, is an overview - one cannot summarize everything nor account for all exceptions - which do exist, and I welcome them.

    On other matters - the Indiana Jones reference was a broad analogy, and is of course reductive.
    The point is the authorial intent - call Lucas irrelevant if you must, but his vision for SW was never one of a stand-alone franchise. The idea of a SW reboot was altogether rather alien to him.
     
  10. ObieLuNobi

    ObieLuNobi Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2017
    I figured TFA was going to be two hours of everyone in galaxy hugging and giving peace signs. Of course things went bad and I’m glad they did, now I get more Star Wars movies. It doesn’t make anything pointless for me it’s all one big story. Everything connects and happened for a reason and the PT,OT,ST all play their parts.


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  11. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    After all, the series isn't called "Star Hugs"


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  12. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    TFA didn't make the OT pointless... But it did make ROTJ and especially the victories that were achieved by Anakin/Luke/Rebellion fairly pointless... Which was always the intrinsic problem with doing a ST and why I always thought it was a bad idea...
     
  13. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    The real victory for Luke was returning Anakin to the Jedi and through that destroying the Sith and bringing the Force back into balance.
     
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  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Would you say that all of the VE Day celebrations at the end of WWII were "pointless" due to the wars & unrest that followed? Ie the Cold War including the Korean War & Vietnam War, and the upheaval in the Middle East etc? All of that began happening just a few short years after WWII, yet I don't think anyone would label those celebrations as pointless. In contrast, post RotJ there was over 30 years of relative peace!
     
  15. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    The point of "Return of the Jedi" was the return of Anakin Skywalker to the Light Side. Not only does TFA *not* render this pointless, but it's still possible for the very fact of Anakin's return to figure into the story in a major way going forward. His return made a highly significant impression on the man who Rey is now asking to train her.
     
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  16. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Was the victory of the allies pointless during WWI, because WWII started two decades later?
     
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  17. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 20, 2015
    This is exactly why it fails, especially as a supposed sequel to the Lucas saga. It's almost every bit as much a reboot as the Abrams Star Treks. They should have just treated it as an alternate timeline, and they pretty much did, as it ignores almost all other continuity except ANH and TESB.
     
  18. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Disagree. It's not exactly why it *fails*, it's exactly why *judgement should be suspended*. Continuity is as much about the fact that there are two more chapters as it is about the fact that there are six previous ones. It's not unusual to remind the audience what the stakes are around the 2/3 point of a drama. TFA said "yes, the Empire was destroyed, but without good keepers of the Force, evil can easily take over again." It remains to be seen what solutions, if any, will be presented to permanently prevent more empires. The FO is not an empire, it is a terrorist organization.
     
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  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Without any credible reason why it was necessary for the continuance not to resemble what TFA is, then people can only assume that it fails to provide the continuance that other people wanted or presumed would be in TFA.
     
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  20. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    WWII does at least make WWI feel like it had a lot less of a point, and especially that the Allies leadership were ineffectual and squandered the sacrifices of the troops.
     
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    I should add that this, in now way, prevents anyone from holding an opinion.

    But it did happen. I think when people describe ROTJ as rendered pointless they are talking about a presumed necessity for the fictional, idealised story not to have any similarity with that real world cataclysmic series of Wars.
     
  22. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    This does however assume, it's possible to predict the future. It's always easy with hindsight to argue things should have been done differently.
     
  23. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    I think a better comparison of Empire:FO is Nazi Germany: Al Queda. The war of 2003 onward is more like the ST and WWII, the OT. The PT is WWI
     
  24. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    It's possible to introduce conflict back into the series without undermining the victories and personal growth of the original three characters. There's no reason Episode VII needed to make Han a deadbeat dad whose emotional negligence played a role in his son's fall to the dark side, or to relegate Leia into the rather boring role of general to a bunch of Rebel wannabes (she was already a Rebel leader in the old movies, it isn't really a step up), or to have Luke fail even harder than Yoda and Obi-Wan did as a teacher and as a leader of a Jedi Order. These are not fundamental prerequisites for introducing conflict into the story. These are cynical story beats created by writers who didn't really think too hard about the integrity of the original saga's story when they were writing theirs. They exist purely as the result of a lack of creativity and a looming production deadline. There were problems to solve--how to create a story where the original three characters have logical reasons for not driving the action and won't overwhelm the new principals--and there was not enough time, creativity, or conscientiousness at hand to solve them satisfactorily.
     
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  25. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Fascinating. What was it like being a first hand witness to all the story group meetings? When do you expect your tell-all book to be published?


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