ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in Episode IX

The Skywalker saga was never stated as meaning that the protag of the ST has to be a Skywalker. I remember the Kiri Hart quote about how it just means it has to be about the Skywalkers in some way. It is about them in some way. KK's Costco interview never said the protag has to be a Skywalker, but did say it was a continuation of the previous six films following those characters, which it is. Kylo as next gen Skywalker satisfies the "Skywalker quota." The trilogy is both about the Skywalkers and Rey. It's not one or the other.

I think she could be related, but the point is that the Force doesn't need lineage to do this and as long as these characters are only Skywalkers this idea will persist that it's not "anyone can be president" (i.e. the most Force-special character in the galaxy) but that only Skywalkers can. That's why I can see it being really important to open this up in the ST itself.

And also although I think it's possible that JJA can decide Rey is a Skywalker, it seems rather unlikely at this point. I thought it was 50/50 with TFA, but now it's like 10/90 or 5/95.

Agreed.

I don't think it's crazy. My main point is that there's a lot right now pointing to Rey NOT being a Skywalker and I think it's important not to disregard that. I reject the position that Rey is a Skywalker AND it's not possible for her to be otherwise, especially given how much is now pointing *away* from that.

 

@oncafar

Re: “The trilogy is both about the Skywalkers and Rey. It's not one or the other.”

So I take it that you do not think Kylo was telling the truth when he told Rey that she “has no place in this story”?

 

@JoJoPenelli - What does that even mean? Kylo is speaking to his own perception. His perception is true to him. What is "this story" to Kylo is the more important question to me.

But, Kylo isn't some authority on what the ST is about.

I honestly don't understand what Kylo's statement about "you have no place in this story" has to do with Rey's lineage, other than that Kylo doesn't believe that Rey is related to his "special lineage." Is he being honest that he doesn't think he's related to Rey? I think he definitely is. Rey doesn't think she's related to him either.

Where Kylo's statement is confusing is that Rey's role in the Force is central (and more central than his role most likely). He's not really seeing Rey for exactly what she is, despite Snoke spelling part of it out. Snoke clearly knows Rey has an important role in the Force and he wants her dead so that she can't fulfill it.

It's possible that either Kylo or Rey can be the central Force figure or both. If Kylo were to have killed Rey perhaps he would have become the most central figure in the Force, around which everything revolves. If Rey defeats Kylo, then everything in the Force spins around her. Basically they are both focal points, as I see it.

Snoke strangely didn't see apparently that *he* doesn't have a place in the story (I mean, unless he's deceived us all and is still hanging around).

And actually I think that perhaps Kylo isn't being entirely truthful in the sense that Rey is incredibly significant to him and Snoke has told him that his equal in the light is coming so he must know that figure is important in the Force. Maybe Kylo doesn't really see things in the bigger picture that Snoke focuses on. He's more about his immediate emotional needs, like how he wants vengeance against Luke (not because he cared if Luke was his "equal in the light" but because it's personal). Everything to Kylo is personal it seems.

Like I said before, AD said that Kylo craves respect and therefore finds he has none to give. He can't admit to Rey how important he thinks she is or how important she is to him without beginning things with this "you come from nothing, you're nothing, but not to me" sort of statement. He feels too ego-inferior to do that.

But regardless, neither Kylo nor Rey think Rey is a Skywalker.

 

But do you think his perception is true?

Just because he’s not lying about his perception doesn’t mean it’s objectively true.

In other words: Do you agree with Kylo that Rey has no place in this story?

This is relevant. If you think Kylo is, objectively speaking, *wrong,* might he not be wrong about other “truthes” he percieves?

I’m not making a lineage argument. I’m wondering how one can trust that what Kylo saw is actually the case (vs only partly true due to his faulty perception of reality) unless one trusts that everything else he tells Rey is literally true as well.

One might think Kylo’s words to Rey re her parents are the literal truth and not think everything he tells her is true. But then surely one can’t trust that what Kylo says re Rey’s parents is literally true?

 

@JoJoPenelli You've asked me about this before and I don't understand why you keep asking me about it. It's like asking me to translate my perception into the way you think about things and I can't do that.

You asked if Kylo was telling the truth. That's why I was looking at it from the standpoint of if he's lying or not. If someone says something false but that they believe is the truth, they ARE telling the truth (i.e. not lying).

It doesn't matter if Kylo's perception is true in the sense of Rey's importance. Kylo is not an authority on this. He's just a character.

And I've pointed out numerous times that I don't consider Kylo the authority on Rey's origins. It's Rey and her responses I'm looking at as well as the overall picture of what the story is presenting. I've said before when discussing this that I think there could be more to Rey's origin story that Kylo doesn't see/know, isn't saying, or even misperceived. However, that doesn't change Rey's acknowledgement (that also matches her conversation with Maz) or what the overall story is saying thus far. Rey is more an authority AFAIC than Kylo on *Rey's* origins. This isn't about Kylo.

Another thing I'd point out though is that even though Kylo has this warped perception that goes along with being on the dark side, that doesn't mean he doesn't perceive things that are true. That doesn't mean that everything he says isn't the case. So, for instance, Kylo could have seen Rey's biological parents, that they were drunkards, that they exchanged her to Unkar for money. He may have seen them dead and buried in the desert. From Rey's own mind in TFA he may have gathered that she had been abandoned by her parents but retained this hope for their return, hence why she was so afraid to leave (as he noted). From Rey's mind he saw that she looks for them everywhere, sees them in Han Solo, and is able to intuit that she searches for them in Luke as well.

One area in which I might doubt Kylo's perception especially is that he seems to perceive Rey's parents as these scum who threw her away like garbage. Just as he doesn't seem to have much sympathy for his own parents who he resents for "throwing him away" he would have none for Rey's. If there was more to their reasons, he likely wouldn't see it in favor of perceiving them in the most negative light possible. He will see the coldest and hardest version of the truth.

 

There is something more to Rey for sure. Keep in mind that every bit of dialogue in the film is there for a reason. Something I remembered recently. Snoke tells Rey that he always told Kylo that as his power grew that his equal in the light would also rise to meet it. Snoke says: "Skywalker, I assumed incorrectly" So Snoke had the thought that Luke would rise to meet Kylo as he grew stronger. But is wasn't Luke that did, it was Rey that did. In the context of TLJ, a new "chosen one" so to speak. A nobody that rises to meet Kylo's darkness. However, Snoke was convinced it was Skywalker that would rise. Rey could still be a Skywalker and this could still make sense form Snokes' perspective.

Also, now that Luke has passed into to netherworld, he will now know the entire truth about Rey. So, in 9 he can tell her her parents are nobodies etc. . . or his passing into the nether, could show both he and she that they have a deeper connection that neither of them was aware of in life. There are some interesting possibilities here. JJ can go back to making Rey a Skywlaker and use Luke's passing and coming back as a FG as a way for Luke to now have all the information that he didn't in life. Or, Luke will know the identities of her parents if she is indeed a nobody and the second coming. Either way his passing allows this to be wrapped up neatly. So in this context, RJ's quote that Luke had to die like he did makes even more sense.

 

Snoke is obsessed with Skywalkers and wants Kylo to be another Vader, *his* Vader. Snoke's assumption relies on his own bias. And when he discovers he assumed wrongly and that this unrelated person is Kylo's "equal in the light," he's not thinking this is impossible. He apparently knows the Force works like this.

In any case, I do think that if Luke were Rey's father, he simply didn't know because he didn't know he even was a father.

 

I think that what Kylo sees he believes to be the truth. I think that if Rian was writing IX it would be literally true. What will JJ do is the question. It is so much fun speculating.

 

Quick question for all of you that are convinced that Rey is a random. What do you make of the fact that Rian Johnson never explicitly says that Rey is not a Skywalker? Yes I've seen the long string of quotes from him in reference to Rey's "no one" status and I agree that on the face of it it does sound like he is saying in those interviews that Rey is not related to Luke and yet he never straight up says that she's definitely not Luke's daughter. Do you all chalk that up to him being respectful to J.J. Abrams?

 

RJ has explained that this was open for him and his creative choices when he made TLJ. He's not making IX, JJA is. It's not his place to speak for JJA.

RJ talks about this at the end of the article I posted earlier, and there are other quotes of him saying similar things.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/adambvary/rey-the-last-jedi?utm_term=.eeEEWPL2v#.xcoeYA674

Let's say (for the sake of argument) even that RJ and JJA had discussed this at some point and were in agreement about Rey "Random." If I put myself in RJ's shoes I wouldn't confirm that "Rey isn't a Skywalker" since it's JJA's movie and the creative process is free to JJA to do whatever he likes, including change his mind. I wouldn't actually know for certain what he will do in the future or what story he will pitch, etc. so it would be factually inaccurate to make any statement closing off possibilities (as they are not closed off).

As RJ said, "I was never given a card with 'This is the answer' written on it and slid over to me. It was presented to me as something that was still open... There was nothing like 'We need this to happen.' There was none of that."

It's the same for JJA basically. It seems from all of this that JJA is not beginning IX with any requirement about what Rey is. And because of that, there is no definitive statement. All one can do is follow the story, and consider RJ's intent at least in looking at TLJ alone.

One can't make (valid) definitive statements about what hasn't happened yet, or about a story that hasn't been written yet. It's like saying what something is that doesn't exist yet. It doesn't make sense.

 

Imo they had to at least know if Rey was a Skywalker or not from the beginning. Whether she is or not fundamentally changes what the ST - and, frankly, the Saga - is about.

They also sketched out most of the backstory very early on. If Rey is a Skywalker, she’d be part of that.

As KK said - Rey’s parentage is “integral” to the story going forward (TLJ + 9). Which is why it was “a central question early on.” Again - this just means that a Rey Random ST is a different story than a Rey Skywalker ST.

If they could wait until 9 to *decide* If Rey is a Skywalker or not, then it simply isn’t integral to the story.

 

I think we can be sure that for now this is their strategy for most things. Since TFA there were only 3-5 things which were "explicitly stated" by creators.

Nobody asked him exactly about "Rey Skywalker." And Rey being not Luke's daughter isn't a controversial topic. People are talking more about Luke's death, Luke's arc, Rey's training and "plot holes." Some people are mad that she is "nobody," but Rey Skywalker isn't a hot topic.

But Matt did liked tweet "Thank God (or something like this) Rey Skywalker is dead."

 

Rey's parentage IS integral to the story regardless of what it is. But I'm not going to go with "RJ is lying!"

Luke's parentage was integral to the story in ANH before Darth Vader was his father. That wasn't decided until ESB.

I think that Rey's parentage is likely what it is in TLJ (i.e. not a Skywalker). DR has known it from some point in filming TFA onward and it apparently hadn't changed.

Basically it's that JJA can change it if he wants, and it will still be "integral to the story" if he does. It's integral to the story as is in TLJ as well.

There isn't only one way for the main character's parentage to be "integral to the story."

 

I think RJ gave the definitive answer for himself. But it could still be very easily retconned into "oh, yeah, those drunkards who sold you? not your biological parents, they just found you as a baby bla bla..." Rey obviously wouldn`t have conducted a DNA test and thus would truly believe those were her parents. In that vein, it is still kept vague.

I agree but IMO changing what the saga is all about is not a problem for KK and Lucasfilm. They have more of a vested interest in "their" saga and their characters. If the Skywalkers are unceremoniously dunzo, they might think that`s not such a big deal.

 

If it can be changed last minute without major issues arising then it is by definition not integral - it’s peripheral.

 

@JoJoPenelli - by your definition of integral perhaps. It's integral if it is so in the finished product, IMO. And regardless, let's say that Luke is Rey's biological father but he doesn't know it. Instead Rey is raised by Skymom for a while but she dies and these two adoptive parents (the junk traders) raise her. Rey's memory begins around age 4 or 5 so all she knows of her parents is they are the junk traders. That is still actually part of Rey's parentage because when these adoptive parents abandoned her, it affected her entire life and the sort of person she became. Her issues she is working through in TLJ stem directly from it. It's already integral, IOW. The story has already flowed around it and out of it.

And the other interesting thing is that Rey and Kylo sharing this abandonment thing (one reason he relates to her in the first place) begins in TFA, not TLJ.

Family is SO important to Rey because her family left her. She's been all alone. What other's might take for granted is invaluable to Rey. It's the most important thing to her, in her heart. It's behind why she angrily yells at Kylo about how could he kill his own father--he had a father who loved him and Rey would give anything for that. It's behind her helping BB-8, not selling him for food, even accompanying him off world despite her great fear of leaving. It's there in why she connects with Kylo in TLJ.

To say this isn't already integral, makes no sense to me.

If JJA suddenly made Rey Luke's daughter for IX, he would make that story flow around that and it would connect to the adoptive parents as well--it would still be integral. The story would simply be different.

 

You seem to be assuming zero setup for Rey Random particularly or Rey Skywalker particularly, and that the story is being made up as it goes along.

It’s not. RJ is finally admitting that TLJ and the ST has been a “highly collaborative” process. Sorta like what everyone else involved has been indicating for years.

 

I think anyone still hanging on to hope of Rey Skywalker at this point, 2/3rds of the way into this trilogy, are setting themselves up for disappointment.

We have Rey herself admitting they were nobodies on screen - it doesn't matter what Kylo says in that instance; Rey is admitting the truth out loud herself. It's a large part of her character arc in TLJ that JJ Abrams would be throwing away if he were to change it. And from what we know, he's VERY unlikely to change it, as it's been stated that he and Rian were on the same page from when JJ was filming and Rian was writing. JJ's statement of Rey's parents not being in TFA (his walkback always seemed like a PR move than anything), Maz's lines to Rey about the belonging being ahead rather than behind, all fit with the answer we got in TLJ.

That's not even going into the nature of Kylo and Rey's relationship and how it has developed from TFA and TLJ and how NOT set up to be cousins they are. You don't write cousins the way they've been written, especially in TLJ, and you don't shoot scenes and have actors acting the way they did in those scenes.

I think there's wiggle room in her parents reasons for selling her, as Kylo could assume the worst given his feelings for his own parents. There's also wiggle room for a grandparent connection, I suppose, but I also think that would be pointless at best, at this juncture of Rey's personal arc.

When it comes to Rey's personal arc and 9, I don't see much of a reason for JJ to revisit the subject of her parents. Her denial about her family has held her back all her life. That's her personal arc, the one she has to overcome to move forward. Her saying it out loud, acknowledging it, is a very big deal for her and her journey in moving beyond it. And it fits perfectly in with JJ's TFA, with Maz's lines to her. She'll never have a future by holding on to the past in the way she was. Her belonging in the future, will be the path and family she makes for herself.

I was a Rey Kenobi fan for a time, even though I believed in "random" the most from the very moment I watched TFA for the first time. I wasn't following anything of the rumors/spec/news/interviews prior to seeing it and held no preconceived notions on who Rey was or wasn't. I liked the Kenobi option because of the thematic, full circle nature of it when this is looked at as a 9 part saga. But as we got closer and closer to TLJ, I stepped away from that tiny hope because the more they talked of Rey and Kylo's dynamic, the more yin/yang it seemed to me, and the more certain I became that her parents were nobody special.

I don't see any reason for JJ to change it, especially to Rey Skywalker; it doesn't work with the story they're telling.

If the reverse had happened with TLJ- Rey and Kylo's dynamic had played differently, and Rey discovered the people who left her weren't her parents and there were hints Luke had loved and lost a family, I wouldn't be doubling down on "random". I would be preparing for a related reveal, even though I never personally wanted Rey Skywalker (or Rey Solo). I would be preparing to accept that, even if it ultimately made me lose some interest in the ST.

 

@JoJoPenelli - Nothing RJ said before contradicted it being a highly collaborative process. Colin Trevorrow said it was highly collaborative too, if I recall.

RJ's's been kind of saying the same things in different words for a while.

The story probably even has been considered for all three movies in a really broad brush kind of way. That wouldn't mean things must be fixed in stone though. I think there probably is a vision behind it even. None of this contradicts things RJ has said though.

 

He had described it as a “baton pass” - “Here’s the script - what’s next?” “No interference,” etc etc.

So yes, he has contradicted himself.

ETA: @TheEvilQueen

Absolutely nothing shown between Rey and Kylo in TFA or TLJ shows that they can’t be related. No embraces, no kisses, no cheek-stroking, no words of endearment...absolutely nothing unambiguously romantic. Heck - Luke/Leia had something closer to romance in TLJ than Rey/Kylo did.

And John Williams thought they were cousins, for goodness’ sake. You’d think the guy in charge of capturing the emotional subtext of every scene would catch on if there was anything hinting at romance, eh?

 

Only if you take things in this really literal bit logic sort of way only perceiving concrete details and not the abstract levels.

How is it not a baton pass?

 

Thing is, we're all taking what he says very literally. So while, maybe it was a 'baton pass, what's next' situation, where he was basically writing the story from scratch continuing where TFA left off, that doesn't mean that it can't also be a highly collaborative process. I expect that there was a lot of back and forth discussion between RJ, the story group, KK, and JJ as soon as Rian started writing the script.

 

RJ even said he hung out with the story group for a while. And I would be surprised if he, JJA and KK didn't collaborate. But still he was the one creating TLJ, the lead creator for TLJ.

He collaborated even with actors like DG - e.g. how DG was the one who suggested some moment like Hux's intention to kill Kylo while he was unconscious.

 

Yeah, Rian has spoken highly of the story group multiple times. Pablo, specifically. So there's no doubt in my mind there was a lot of collaboration between the SG and him.

 

Rey's parentage is integral in the way that the message conveyed is greatness is not a birthright but rather what you do and the choices you make. Ben Solo feel for the trappings of his birthright hook, line and sinker. And he is not great.

Rey has a minimalist narrative to her nothing parents (which I love because it is a minimalist approach) is such a wonderful juxtaposition to six films focused on bloodlines and lineage.