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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Rickleo123, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Because that’s the way some people feel.

    1. Um, evidence? I’m glad you’ve done a comprehensive survey of every woman in the industrialized world to know that none of them feel this way.

    2. It’s not just that she’s infertile, it’s the feeling she is nothing more than a weapon. Her fertility was taken from her during her training as an assassin, she is masterful at destroying life but can never create it. The goal of her training and sterilization was to hollow her out and make her nothing but a weapon to be used against Russia’s enemies. I can see how that might cause a crisis for someone, even if you can’t.
     
  2. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    1. There are common cultural views. Democracy, for instance tends to have a much better reputation in the modern era than in even the 1700s.

    2. If they wanted to highlight the sense that she felt used. . . why not just highlight literally that? Why Fraser the concept around the idea “non-ovulatory females are monsters?” Again, that seems to presume it’s a relatable or natural frame for introducing see other concerns when in fact it’s one of the wierdest assertions of all.
     
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  3. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    David Yates has said that Dumbledore’s sexuality won’t be touched upon in the next Fantastic Beasts film. This despite the fact that the film will reunite Dumbledore and Grindelwald.

    This is why diversity needs to be “forced”, needs people with an “agenda”; because when people don’t “force” these things, don’t demand them, filmmakers pretend that you are invisible.
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I wasn’t happy with that at all, especially given that the Harry Potter fandom generally seems to be pretty accepting of same-sex relationships and we’ve known for years that Dumbledore was in love with Grindelwald.
     
  5. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    *Sigh*

    Popular Catholic Bishop Robert Barron is yet another high profile Conservative blasting the Last Jedi for having feminist qualities in a blockbuster film.

    Anyone who thinks angry Conservatives and men’s rights types and the Alt right haven’t collectively played a fairly significant part in the perception of this film is fooling themselves. How much of the reaction or impact can be attributed to these types will never be know but they are absolutely a portion of the negative reaction alongside others who are strictly upset over more character-driven issues, and more of the issues we discuss here more frequently related to Luke or lineage or exposition than anything political.

    http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/31/star-wars-the-last-jedi-catholic-bishop-barron-review/

    Somewhat related... I find this interesting. Conservatives also pushed back against the second Al Gore documentary that had otherwise strong reviews.
    https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/an_inconvenient_sequel_truth_to_power/

    And Conservatives also propped up the anti-Obama documentary from Dinesh Desuza

    https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/2016_obamas_america/

    These groups target RT more than IMDB where the same Obama audience score is much lower.
    http://m.imdb.com/title/tt2247692/

    And the same al Gore documentary also has a higher audience score there than RT and closer to its Metascore:
    http://m.imdb.com/title/tt6322922/

    The sample sizes for these last 2 films are also much smaller than that of the IMDB Last Jedi score which now exceeds 303,000 people.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  6. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    If they're nixing the Dumbledore/Grindelwald love story part of that history, I'm out of this Fantastic Beasts set of movies. That was the most interesting aspect of Dumbledore's history to me and it's what would give this story drama and heart. More importantly, it was the freaking intent of the author. It shone through crystal clear to me in HP when we learned Dumbledore's history.

    Yeah, this is exactly why Hollywood needs to force these things. This is a perfect example of a story being censored because certain people whine about homosexuality/diversity in film. Ugh now I'm so annoyed.

    Edit ~ I checked, and it seems like they're saying that they may be saying his sexuality and history with Grindelwald might be getting saved for later movies in this series. If it's just sort of hinted on to start, with the idea that it will be expanded on, that's cool I guess.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  7. Joystick Chevron

    Joystick Chevron Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2017
    That is...depressingly predictable of them.
     
  8. Troopa212

    Troopa212 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2016
    Even without seeing the scene I figured number 2 would have been the mostly likely reason she made the statement. I don't see how this gets twisted into some sinister motive by the writer to covertly tell the audience that barren women are lesser.
    Since this is a Star Wars forum I should point out that this is essentially the same the same idea Finn expressed to Rey in TFA when he revealed his past as a stormtrooper. Just like Natasha, he was raised to be a mindless killing machine. Just like with her, he expressed the idea that a lack of a familial connection meant to him at the time that he could never truly be "normal". The fact that he mourns never knowing his parents in contrast to her never knowing her own child doesn't change the fact that the point being made is the same for both characters. In short, they consider themselves monsters because of how they were raised but the lack of familial connections hammers home the point that to themselves, that's all they are or can ever be.

    To say that Natasha's confession is the writer/director's way of saying they believe barren women are lesser is like saying Finn's confession is the writer/director's way of saying black people are always missing at least one parent. Basically, those things are only there if you want to read them into the scenes. I'm fairly certain that those weren't the intentions of any of those writers/directors.
     
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  9. afrojedi

    afrojedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2015
    If Rowling is involved, I'm really hoping that this has more to do with spreading their romance out over several movies and less about minimizing it altogether.
     
  10. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    No need to get conspiratorial here. No doubt there are plenty of alt-right weirdos who hate the film because it has female and POC protagonists, but I don’t think that’s the main reason for the reaction, as Rogue One and TFA were not similarly effected. I’m still more inclined to the “angry fanboys” interpretation.

    Also, I don’t like the twisting of Bishop Barron’s opinion. Barron felt the film portrayed women as being superior to men, he wasn’t angry about the presence of female protagonists. I don’t agree that the movie makes men look like idiots, but that’s not the same as saying that “the film is bad because there are strong women”.
     
  11. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    "Angry fanboys" is no less conspiratorial than blaming alt-righters for people not liking this movie. People aren't en masse angry or "fanboys" just for not liking this movie. Whatever "fanboy" actually means, I'd say the term applies pretty accurately to plenty of people that love this movie.
     
  12. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    On the topic of identification with the characters on-screen, as it relates to one Natasha Romanov: For ages, the superhero genre has been largely male-dominated. Imagine then, a young girl seeing Black Widow kickin’ hinies alongside the boys. This young girl begins to identify with her onscreen heroine. Then, as has been observed previously, this heroine, this dare I say role model, equates her inability to have children as being as monstrous as someone who left unchecked can destroy entire cities...

    Now in and of itself this is not enough to mess with an impressionable young mind, but imagine being constantly told in pretty much every form of media that a woman’s worth is defined by her desirability to a man and her capacity to give him teh baybehs...over and over and over and over and over and over and over...years and decades on end...
     
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  13. Eeyore freak

    Eeyore freak Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2016
    Yeah, I didn’t agree with Barron’s take on the movie, but he wasn’t complaining about strong women. Also, he’s not part of the alt-right. In fact, most of the hard core conservative crowd here doesn’t like him because they think he’s too liberal. (Which isn’t accurate either. I would say he’s just slightly right of center.)
     
  14. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    honestly, how do you do a movie where both dumbledore and grindlewald are to interact, yet dumbledore's sexual orientation is off the table? When they revealed that he was gay, i was slightly annoyed as I'd never imagined a sexual person in dumbledore (or macgonnagal) and didn't see the point of such info given his place in the harry potter story. Fantastic beasts is a completely different situation however. Thats......they need to explain why they're avoiding such an obvious dramatic point between two central characters. Dumbledore's infatuation was a huge part of their "rivalry/relationship". I can't imagine seeing that story play out while dumbledore's orientation is ignored.
     
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  15. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Lee_

    Lee_ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Please. You would have to be really insecure to interpret it that way.

    Did he react in a similar way to the mass of movies out there that truly made men look superior to women? There are a few billion movies that do that, and I don't hear him protesting those.
     
  17. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Or, people who don’t think anyone cares what the alt right says about anything remember how these same people hated TFA and R1. TLJ is mostly about two white guys - Kylo Ren and Luke. Neither TFA nor R1 had that going for them, so logically, there was even more reason for these people to hate those movies, which they did, and everyone ignored them.
     
  18. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    If people keep at it long enough things start to build momentum. It certainly feels like the media covered more aspects of this. Rotten Tomatoes is already preparing for the same organized movement seeking to troll Black Panther.
    http://comicbook.com/2018/02/01/rotten-tomatoes-statement-plot-sabotage-black-panthers-audience-/

    We also had the new low of that 46 minute edit and I don't recall Conservative bishops chiming in on the other films like this or the Drudge Report, Daily Caller, etc (among other right wing outlets). The anger against Lucasfilm for SJW messaging has reached a fever pitch from the looks of it.
     
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  19. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Momentum, or, they’re latching onto the complaints non-alt-righters have and claiming success because they’re pathetic and delusional. I’m going with the latter, because people today don’t care more about what the alt-right thinks than they did one and two years ago.
     
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  20. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    I mean, I doubt you listen much to Father Barron anyway, so I don’t know why you would.
     
  21. Lee_

    Lee_ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Oh, OK, then enlighten me. Link me to his female-supportive quotes regarding movies.
     
  22. NHB0M

    NHB0M Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2016
    From Vulture:
    Maybe Star Wars Should Go Easy on the British Brunettes

     
  23. Miriedis

    Miriedis Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 23, 2015
    Kathleen Kennedy KIIIIND of has a problem with that. Apparently, she wanted Bel Powley for Rose, and Rian Johnson had to intervene to get a non-white actress into the role (he originally wanted Gina Rodriguez). Also, Emilia Clarke was pretty much the only white woman on the shortlist for Qi'ra, while MANY other, oftentimes stronger actresses of color were passed over, such as Tessa Thompson, Zoe Kravitz, and Jessica Henwick.
     
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  24. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Or just the white brunettes... Seriously...
     
  25. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 27, 2017
    Wait, don't forget that Maz is portrayed by a black woman!
     
  26. Miriedis

    Miriedis Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 23, 2015
    Yeah, but she's CGI. Not her natural self. Michael K. Williams was going to be a half-human, half-alien in Solo, but had to back out because his scheduling conflicts wouldn't allow him to do Solo reshoots. Then, Paul Bettany replaced Michael K. Williams, and suddenly, the character was now fully human the moment a white man got the position. So there's not just Lucasfilm issues with Kathleen Kennedy's "white, British, brunette" self-insert problem. There also seems to be an issue with putting big-name nonwhite actors and actresses under makeup/CGI, but allowing the big-name white folks to stay human.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018