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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Rickleo123, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    No, spoilers for upcoming movies are not allowed here. We have whole forums dedicated to spoiler discussions though, I suggest you seek them out.
     
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  2. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    @TCF-1138
    Sorry

    PS: Anyway, no matter what spoiler is (and if it is real or just a rumor), I don't think there's a reason to make a movie with less poc.
     
  3. dragonchic

    dragonchic Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Variety: Black Panther's Box Office Success Has Theater Owners Asking for More Diverse Superhero Movies
    Hopefully we can extend that to more diverse Star Wars movies as well. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  4. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Honestly, Black Panther has revealed just how much of a "myth" this is to the extent that I am not sure "myth" is the right word when considering Hollywood's skittishness in diverging from the mostly white (or white-centric) model for the characters. "Excuse" is a better word.

    This has been overdue. The Fast & Furious movies already showed a lot regarding this.

    I did really enjoy in Black Panther how the white CIA (or whatever he was) guy has his side plot of remote flying a ship. Since this is the kind of thing often reserved for POC characters in movies.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  5. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    There's always been a market for it. Studios just tend to be the last people to realize stuff like that unfortunately.
     
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  6. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I wonder if it's more that some people did realize it and deliberately held it back. It's like how the Republicans (in particular) waited to back off gay marriage until people were so vocal about it they had no choice. Many had to have known this was inevitable, but they wanted to stall it as long as possible.
     
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  7. RandomGreyJ

    RandomGreyJ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2016
  8. leopardhk47

    leopardhk47 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2016
    I was really excited for Finn when he was first advertised in the TFA promos but after two movies of him playing the funny black sidekick, first to Rey and then to Rose, I'm really disappointed with his Disney decided to handle his portrayal, especially given how much care they put into Rey's character. Looking at how nuanced and varied (I'm not asking for characters who are perfect) black people were portrayed in Black Panther, I can only shake my head at Finn.
     
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    It's not your usual "sidekick" that devises and volunteers for dangerous and important missions independently of what others are prepared to do.
     
  10. CosmicDust

    CosmicDust Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2017
    This happens all the time and it drives me crazy.
     
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  11. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    I feel the same way. I was not feeling it, but after BP, i'm really not having the nonsense with finn. I feel the same way about how they've handled their female characters. WW and BP put star wars to shame.
     
  12. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    So it's "lead character or nothing". Okay...
     
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  13. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    EDIT:
    So its "ignore points and assume whatever". Okay.........
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Completely disagree. At least in terms of recent SW. I won't defend some of the stuff we saw in certain prior episodes. Regarding the ST, Finn seems like a very positive, albeit imperfect character. He's one in a long line of recent good characters of color we've seen in movies. Let's look at it closer. He's brave. Conscientious, ie he could not go through with the murder of innocent people despite being ordered to. He'd rather risk his life & desert. He's smart, strong, funny, attractive, charismatic, loyal to those close to him. He was even able to overcome years of conditioning from childhood in order to be a better person. I can't see how he's anything but a positive characterization. If you want to get meta there's even the angle of a character played by an Anglo-African, who in the story throws off his "chains" & fights against the oppression of his masters. In the end he defeats his evil former "owner".

    As for Black Panther, it was a reasonably entertaining comic book movie. Surely though you're not holding that up as a positive example of colored roles & characters? That's a line that ignorant non-colored people are beating right now. Many colored folk don't quite share that enthusiasm. Read this article as just one example, by Chris Lebron, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Johns Hopkins University and author of The Making Of Black Lives: http://bostonreview.net/race/christopher-lebron-black-panther

    That's the African-American perspective. There's also a lot of complaints from Africans about appropriation of their culture. The movie features a clumsy hodge-podge of different African themes, symbols & motifs. From a variety of very different cultures just to look "Hollywood African". It uses a South African language even though it's supposed to be a central African nation. It suggests that if only Africans were gifted some magical substance from outer space they could prosper. An unobtainable & unrelatable fantasy. It features the obscene idea of a super wealthy African country that pretends to be poor, while not helping its surrounding nations as their people live in poverty, die of AIDS etc.

    So yeah, not a great example to use to supposedly "shame" Star Wars.
     
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  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Chris LeBron’s perspective is not “the African American perspective.” There is no singular “African American perspective” because African Americans are not a monolith.

    There are many, many African American people who really appreciated Black Panther, as well as many, many African American people who took a lot of issue with Finn’s portrayal.

    IIRC Blastaar is African American himself, and as a white person, I am not about to tell him that he is “wrong” to take issue with Finn’s portrayal or to appreciate Black Panther.
     
  16. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Of course. That's just picking up on the fact the I should've written "an African-American perspective" instead of "the". Merely a typo. I said earlier in the post that "many", not "all" AA's have issues with the movie. From what I can see it's attracting even more criticism from African people themselves. Another cheap Hollywood version of their culture, in the vein of Coming to America. Yet this time preaching about how their problems can be solved. All of the other points I raised stand. Opinion on it is naturally subjective, but offensively (to some) conflating multiple African cultures etc are facts.
    People of any color are entitled to their opinion. I'd be very interested in Blastaar's or anyone else's view on the article I posted, or this one. Perhaps in the JCC Black Panther thread, rather than sidetrack this one too much.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  17. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Black Panther is merely the stepping stone to expand diversity within Hollywood itself. Before Wakanda, there was little public awareness of African cultures, let alone the unique variations between each country and tribe. Now, thanks to Black Panther, the floodgates have been opened and there is a lot more interest in African cultures than there were before. It's the same as Wonder Woman.

    The fact that critics are criticizing the mishmash of different African cultures in Wakanda instead of Black Panther failing to live up its initial promises should be seen as a good thing since it means the film has succeeded expectations and now opens a new room of criticisms for Hollywood to improve their representations and diversity.

    The reason why TLJ gets the backlash and criticisms regarding its own progressive stance is because many like @Blastaar believe that characters like Finn have regressed in that department, going from main leads to comedic sidekicks. Regression can undo any goodwill that the previous film made. Rey, for example, has lost a good number of fans thanks to TLJ's portrayal and many cannot even enjoy watching TFA anymore knowing where Rey's character is going to be taken. It's that type of regression that had Padme lose a good chunk of her fans come Revenge of the Sith after being an awesome action woman in previous two Prequels.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  18. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    I would also add that as a woman, the female characters in both BP and WW felt more relatable, developed and inspiring than the female characters in TLJ.

    But of all the criticism leveled at Black Panther, this is the one that I don’t get:
    You mean like every other superhero movie where white American heroes are artificially propped up and made into wish fulfillment world saviors? Unless you think Spiderman, Captain America, Superman, Batman, the Jedi, etc., are all obtainable fantasies for a white American man.

    I mean, it’s a Marvel movie. The difference is that it focus this time on an African fantasy instead of an white American fantasy. Not sure what you mean with "unrelatable fantasy" - relatability comes from the way the characters are represented and develped, not the setting. Otherwise none of us would be able to relate to Star Wars characters.

    But personally, I saw Wakanda as the potential of what an African nation could have been – as in, just as prosperous as the US, if not more advanced - had it not been colonized and their resources stripped from them to serve Western nations as they prospered on the back of black slaves and stolen resources. And while the king had magical powers and Vibranium was a superior metal, they were not the sole reason of why Wakanda prospered – its people being allowed to freely achieve their full potential and its gender-equal beliefs, were. And I thought that was the most powerful message of the movie.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  19. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    That's being very generous. Imagine if they depicted a fictional East Asian country, but used a mish-mash of cultural elements from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand etc. All completely distinct & proud cultures in their own right. Yet many of their cherished cultural facets are lumped together with those other foreign elements & called "Asian". That would be highly offensive to a lot of viewers from those individual Asian countries. Giving the studio the out that this ignorant portrayal will "draw attention" to Africa, & "hopefully" lead people to discover the actual facts & debunk the nonsense in the movie is a funny way of looking at it.
    More of an issue than that however is that like I said, the movie seems to convey the (false) message that African society would be screwed if it weren't for Wakanda & their magical rocks from space. Problem is when the movie ends people, esp Africans know that Wakanda & their magical rocks are a made up fantasy. So what is the only message that remains?
    Surely there's a distinction between the character & the role. Finn's role may've been marginalized, slightly compared to TFA. That relates more to opportunities for actors of color in movies. Which is separate to the issue of positive characterizations on screen. Finn as a character did not regress. He progressed. By the end of the movie he fully embraces a righteous cause. In TFA he had far less conviction. He wanted to run. In TLJ he became truly selfless & was willing to sacrifice himself. This time not just for an individual person who he cared about. To take a stand against evil.
    A very poor comparison. White American men haven't been enslaved & oppressed over the past few centuries. Their country doesn't face the despair of Sub-Saharan Africa. The movie clearly implies that the only "civilized" Africans are the fictional made up Africans. The Americans are violent thugs who need saving. The "real" Africans are excluded & are to be avoided. What's more the good (fictional) Africans must hide behind magic walls from the "real" Africans surrounding them. What's more they must pretend that they're also poor & impoverished, in case those outsiders may try to take what they have. And even these affluent privileged Africans didn't achieve their status through their ingenuity, hard work & natural development, like many other societies in the world. They only got to where they are through luck. Magic rocks fell on their land from space. If it weren't for that they'd be like all of the other down & out Africans.
    Maybe it is best that we look at the film as a silly comic book movie & not take it seriously. If you do otherwise it's all very on the nose, to say the least.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  20. leopardhk47

    leopardhk47 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2016
    But it is your usual sidekick who's given the C-plot and is shown to be hilariously incompetent compared to the main character.

    That's a bull**** response and you know it. No one's asking for "lead character or bust", people are just asking that POC characters be treated with dignity afforded white characters. I've no issue with Rey being the lead, I take issue with how Finn serves as a blatant sidekick so that the audience in no way starts thinking that he and Rey are equals. Compare Finn and Rey to how Steve Trevor and Diana interact (and she's a goddess!) or Jyn and Cassian. Imo, the latter two pairings are portrayed as complementary and equal while the first pairing is that of unequals.
     
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Well even if the first part is even remotely true sometimes, the second part is definitely not applicable to Finn. Unless every non-white actor who isn't cast as a Jedi is automatically "hilariously incompetent".
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  22. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    A reduction in screen time for one movie does not rob the character of dignity. Not IMO anyway.
    How was he a sidekick? Who's sidekick was he? In fact he had his own sidekick. His character still underwent important development & he'll likely be more prominent in IX. We can bet that Abrams will team him up with Rey again.
     
  23. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    No, he underwent zero development. He had the same freaking arc that he had in TFA (and no, I do not buy that suddenly he learned something here that he didn't learn there). Also he accomplished absolutely freaking nothing in the movie (even less than in TFA), and he was once again the butt of jokes/treated like a clueless child constantly.

    He was basically Rose's sidekick since she drove a lot o the action. So no, I do NOT trust them to do right by him in IX, they've had two movies to do so and failed both times.
     
  24. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    Please tell why anyone should take anything thing you say seriously given you clumsily used the term "colored people" a few posts back?

    As a black american man, please do not try to school me on why you think the black panther movie is problematic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  25. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    LOL at our resident gushers whitesplaining to POC what acceptable cutural representation is.

    2 films of mop jokes, having life explained to him by white and Asian girls and multiple attempts to run away clearly should satisfy our black community.