Lit The EU Apocrypha - Using New Material to Expand the Expanded Universe

When I was a kid, there were a few things I wanted out of the Star Wars universe - a historical background, a big map, and stories beyond ROTJ. When Lucas seemed more interested in telling stories about Ewoks, I left for a while. That is, until the SW Expanded Universe came along.
That isn't to say I jumped back in right away. I was aware of the Star Wars RPG at the time (being, and still, an avid tabletop RPG gamer), and Zahn novels, but I wasn't interested in reading some meaningless 'continuation' that would be ignored by the next author to come along, like most secondary franchise tie-in material. But I grew to love the X-Wing game and its 'historical' approach to the Galactic Civil War... and was introduced to the post-Endor X-Wing series, featuring my favorite character from Star Wars - Wedge Antilles (yes, he's actually my favorite). I started keeping track of things, as is my hobby - locations, starships, timelines.
Fast forward to the future, and I managed to check off all my remaining items on my Star Wars wish list, and while it couldn't last forever, the Expanded Universe stopped expanding - even if it had a legacy of decades of material, all of which I haven't even gotten to right now. But it was done.
The new material came in, and I gave it a try - I really did. As much as I enjoyed Rogue One and thought The Force Awakens was a decent sci-fi movie, I never felt the connection to NewCanon like I did with the OT or the EU. I had even thought about getting some of the new books that were set in the OT era, but the whole pushing of "This is Canon, That isn't Canon" got tiresome.
Once the new Rebel Files came out, I found myself wanting to get it, as I love the series of cool little 'guides' with physical attributes and interesting containers. But I thought "Well, it isn't EU, and I don't care for the NewCanon".
And then a little voice said, "You want it, right? Why the **** do you care about what's officially canon?"
And the answer is: I don't. And I bought it and added to my collection of the Imperial Handbook, The Jedi Path, etc.
So I'm taking the concept further - I'm going back in and reading the new novels and new guides and such and I'm adapting material from NewCanon to use in the Expanded Universe. Yeah, I'm aware that it won't be 'canon' - read up a few lines again about my feelings about that if you've forgotten. That's why I'm using the term Apocrypha here - some heretical texts that are decidedly not canon.

So the premise is as follows: the Expanded Universe and the New Canon Universe are two separate SW universes that are essentially the same up to the Battle of Endor (or closely parallel), and then diverge. However, there are echoes in one that are repeated in the other - Jacen/Kylo being the obvious example. There is only the former, though, not the latter (for instance). Events in the EU stay the same; if there's a contradiction, then the EU material stands, but every effort would be made to fit details in somehow.

There's a number of points that make it rather easy:
They use the same galactic map.
The NewCanon borrows liberally from the EU with characters, races, planets, and other details
They both use the OT as their core (and the PT as well)
EU authors returning to write new stories in the NewCanon universe.

I expect a good deal of overlap with Sinrebirth's project, although he has the much harder task - by far.

First up will be Aftermath.

 

I do applaud Sinrebirth's attempts to harmonize and unify both the EU and the DisnEU. Those are commendable and worthy of the time put into them. It might really be possible to reconcile both, and the chance must be taken.

I have to say that this thread's proposed methodology is much closer to mine, as "Legends" will always take precedence over ANY of the newer material for me. I'm not entirely against the reboot material, though- if something from Canon fits perfectly well into the Legends Universe, I have no objection to incorporating it into my own Canon. Most that has been FFG lore tidbits, but there's room for newer things, too.

There's two good, quick reads on the matter, that were actually written some time ago, back when the Prequel materials were starting to come out and cause a few contradictions between established lore. On Methodology and On Polylingualism should be read by anyone interested, and can be here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110722011326/http://www.domuspublica.net/on_methodology.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20110709080027/http://www.domuspublica.net/on_polylingualism.html

...the concept of polylingualism by itself can help reconcile a great many seeming contradictions, even between the EU and the post-reboot materials.

 

I assume places of relative importance never had the events there take place. Lothal never had an economic downturn and never invited the Empire in, or because of different circumstances way back "at least 3,245 years before Sheev Palpatine's rise to the position of Supreme Chancellor", which would be... at one point in BBY? were either never settled or settled differently. Meanwhile Jakku still exists as a junkers planet but there was never the site of a massive battle between NR and Empire. Here it would be interesting if the calamity that turned it into a desert planet never happened in Legends, so its still a forests and oceans world.

Cantonica, I think, could still exist fine as a casino planet, one out of many in the Corporate Sector. And I've always considered Hosnian Prime to just be a renamed Denon.

 

My belief is that, unless proven otherwise, characters that exist in Legends also exist in Canon, and vice versa. The exceptions are the Solo offspring, but almost anyone else is fair game.

Now, their fates may (and in some cases are) be different. For example, let's say Gallius Rax died earlier in Legends and was never around to implement part of the Contingency. No Battle of Jakku, no quick dissolution of the Empire, forcing a more drawn out campaign; or if the Yuuzhan Vong never invade after encountering Zonoma Sekot (or the coup that establishes Shimrra never happens).

 

Or maybe Quoreal decided to invade another galaxy and Shimmra's coup was defeated, or the Vong collapsed into civil war and basically died out as a result of Shimmrra's coup.

That's about the only way I can figure the abscence of the Vong in Canon.

 

Brendol Hux I could see as a post-Endor warlord, and maybe Armitage grows up as a smarter and more nuanced officer in the Remnant? If you've seen Star Trek TOS, Nu-Canon Armitage would be Mirror Kirk, angry, overzealous, makes stupid moves, whereas Legends Armitage would be... prime Kirk? Man imagine Hux as a womanizer..

 

I feel that Legends tells a very complete story without canon. In fact, after the finale of Rebels, 7 and 8, and the filler Marvel comics, I'm wondering what does new canon add?

Rogue One was the only new canon work I liked, but its story is already told (multiple times) in Legends.

We all agree the new Solo film is just retreading area filled by Crispin, Daley, etc.

In a lot of ways, new canon is filler. That's why a lot of Legends fans like myself, going in with open minds, are dissatisfied. Even the ST only adds the outstanding characters of Rey, Finn, and Poe, who would make fine additions to Legends (Imagine Poe in the X-Wing novels, or Rey in the NJO books, with Finn in there somewhere). But we can pretend these guys exist in Legends without canonizing their films--other than this, the ST is filler--new galactic conflict and a checklist on which of the Big 3 is going to die in this film.

Ahsoka, Rex and Ventress got fine sendoffs in TCW (which is also in the Legends universe) that just got mucked up by the canon stuff that came afterwards. Literally the only Legends hanging thread is what happened to Maul.

I thought at first that 'Twin Suns' alone could be brought into Legends, to explain that Maul was killed by Kenobi. But then this would open up plotholes like what happened to Ezra and Kanan in Legends and that would necessitate (Rebels spoilers)

Spoiler

the whole time travel business of canon that I DON'T want to see in Legends

It also would bring the Ahsoka novel into Legends, which is a bit silly in its premise. Despite not mentioning Maul at all in ROTS, canon has it that the Jedi sent half-trained Ahsoka to Mandalore with a clone army to deal with Maul circa ROTS. Instead of, you know, a Jedi Master. That's all sorts of implausible. And supposedly Anakin never mentions this in ROTS. Ok.

So after thinking on it, I'm not sure it is worth it to bring 'Twin Suns' into Legends and drag all the other canon stuff along with it (Ahsoka on Mandalore, what happened to Ezra and Kanan, and other bizarre canon Rebels stuff).

Why don't the Jedi discuss Maul in ROTS? Simple, Palpatine along with the corrupt Mandalorian government, faked Maul's death. Savage's body was left for the Jedi to find. Palpatine obtained Feral Opress' body, chopped off the bottom half, and burned it and put it next to Savage's body to fool the Jedi that it was Maul's body. The Jedi don't have Maul's DNA. But they confirm Savage's body and see that the body next to Savage is Savage's brother. Since the Jedi don't know about Feral, they assume this is Maul and the Mandalorian government give a fake story on how Savage and Maul turned on each other and killed each other. Case closed.

Maul is exiled to Wayland to become the Guardian of Mount Tantiss. Sometime later, Joruus C'baoth kills Maul and becomes the new Guardian. There, Maul cliffhanger in Legends resolved, without bringing in the extraneous Rebels stuff.

 

Ahsoka in legends really sticks out as she is a clone wars character not a legends character and it's hard to fit her in the timeline.

The best I can say if we don't throw out the last season the clone wars entirely is that she was either killed by Vader or lived and died in exile.

But she never became a Jedi knight much less a master.

 

I think the solution for Rebels is very simple. Lothal is never settled in the Old Republic, the Empire never goes to it. There's an old Jedi Temple in there which COULD factor into the whole Mortis and Abeloth search in FOTJ. It doesn't need to be used as a time travel device to bring, I don't know, Anakin Solo back from the dead. It'd just be used as a plot device for a book in Luke Skywalker and the Dagger of Mortis trilogy, written by Troy Denning.

 

Actually the Ahsoka novel puts her up with Bail Organa at the ending. Even though this novel is canon, if one wants it can be brought back into Legends and just say Ahsoka died on Alderaan.

In fact, Obi-Wan may have known this in Legends and was planning to bring Luke to Alderaan so that he and Ahsoka can train Luke together.

This does leave the cliffhanger of what happened to Maul after Mandalore though. I still think my idea of him becoming Guardian of Mt Tantiss is better than dragging in the Rebels stuff, as far as Legends is concerned.

TCW is officially part of Legends canon, even the Lost Missions. But Rebels is not part of Legends at all. And the less Rebels one brings into Legends, the better. It mucks up with too much.

 

As far as I'm concerned-Maul died on Naboo. Bringing him back was TCW's dumbest decision.

 

I know, but it's Legends canon decreed by Lucas himself. Multiple Legends comics also featured TCW Maul, it's not our place to just wipe them and all Maul episodes out of Legends.

 

If Rebels was the isolated case of Rebels going against the Empire then it could've fit in flawlessly. Unfortunately, it wasn't, so its really impossible to fit it into Legends except in the way I said. That said, you could still have the characters unrelated to Lothal itself. Hera and Kanan could be members of a rebel cell on Ryloth, Zeb could end up leading his still-alive people on his homeworld since they were never genocided in Legends.

 

If you want to add to Legends from canon, you could say the upcoming Solo film is one of the many Han Solo holofilms that Luke practically groaned over in 'Shadows of Mindor'.

This explains Han and Lando's different looks. Chewie wanted easy money and starred as himself. He even added in jokes growling "This movie is ridiculous" that only fluent wookiee speakers understood.

 

So on Alderaan before the Battle of Yavin we would have Ahsoka, Ferus Olin and Ylenic It'kla hanging around. And Bail knew Rahm Kota and Starkiller. And he knew where Obi-Wan was. He probably knew of other Jedi I'm forgetting. Plus Kanan and Ezra if we're including them. Bail had a secret Jedi order and he wasted it.

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I don't have as much time to post tonight as I had planned, so I'll go with one element pulled from the Aftermath trilogy (or about half of it, which is as far as I've gotten with exploring the novels): the Executors.

Giving concrete numbers for - well, anything - in Star Wars tended to have people up in arms, especially when it came to SW military numbers... and super especially to the Super Star Destroyers (with the exception that there were four in existence by the Battle of Hoth). So, it came as a surprise that NewCanon just came out and said 'thirteen in existence at the Battle of Endor'... so let's run with that number in the Apocrypha as well. We also have the details that by book two, 6 of them had been destroyed in battle, 2 surrendered to the NR, 1 captured by pirates, one destroyed in a hyperspace accident, and one vanished (in the NewCanon universe)
1. Executor - The OT, the EU and NewCanon all deal pretty much the same with it the same way. Destroyed at the Battle of Endor.
2. Aggressor - One of the original four. Post-Endor, under Admiral Roek, in turn under Grand Admiral Grunger. Destroyed in the Battle of Tralus by rival Imperial forces around 1 ABE.
3. The Brawl/Iron Fist - One of the first four. Command ship of Admiral Zsinj, and his flagship. Destroyed at the Battle of Dathomir around 4 ABE.
4. Reaper - Last of the first four ships. Flagship of Grand Moff Kaine and Scourge Squadron, and head of the Pentastar Alignment fleet. Lost at the Battle of Celanon in 9 ABE.
5. Annihilator - Name used in both the EU and the NewCanon; this was the ship that was 'captured by pirates'; fortunately for the EU, its fate was already determined; destroyed at the Battle of Kuat by the mercenary fleet of crime lord Tyber Zann, shortly ABE. (The fate of Tyber Zann and his forces is something that can be drawn from information in the 2nd book, which I'll talk about later)
6. Arbitrator - Destroyed in a 'bad hyperspace calculation' in NewCanon. Here's the thing... in the EU, Black Sword Command was said to have three Dreadnaughts, presumed by most to be Executors, but only the Intimidator shows up. There is also mention of a mysterious destruction of what the Imperials thought was the entirety of the Black Sword Fleet at Cal-Seti... and that the NR apparently knew nothing about other than thinking all the Black Sword ships were destroyed. Somehow, it seemed unlikely that it was a coincidence that ships that had been worked on by the Yevethans - sly xenophobes that were more technologically savvy that the Imperials knew - suffer some mysterious catastrophe. We also know that the main Black Sword shipyards were not in the Koornacht Cluster. I surmise that they were at Cal-Seti, and that the Arbitrator was sabotaged to smash into the shipyards and cause a catastrophic explosion that wiped out all the ships in the area, including a second (unnamed) SSD.
7. Eclipse - The Emperor's personal SSD. While it would be easiest probably to just make it the Eclipse from Dark Empire, I like that there's an Executor-class with the same name that was also the Emperor's ship. We know from the two Executors that he was fond of hiding projects even from his own people, using ships with the same name; the construction of the Eclipse could've been hidden by it being marked for his smaller SSD, with the discrepancies attributed to cost overrun, embezzlement, and the Emperor's extravagant whims. The Executor-class Eclipse would've also ended up in the hidden Dark Empire in the Deep Core.
8. Guardian - The flagship of the rogue Admiral Drommel; around 1 ABE, the NR forces heavily damaged it at the Battle of Tantive V, and he fled; it was eventually captured by the NR in 12 ABE.
9. Ravager - The flagship for Fleet Admiral Gallius Rax; most likely for one of the original Oversectors (Golden Nyss, perhaps). Destroyed at the Battle of Jakku (EUA edition).
10. Whelm - Flagship of Azure Hammer Command. Destroyed during the Imperial Mutiny.
11. Unnamed SSD destroyed at Cal-Seti

Which still leaves two other Executor-class ships from prior to the Battle of Endor - which either were destroyed in battle or also captured by the NR.

Note that the Terror and Vengeance, while built prior to Endor, were also destroyed by the Battle of Endor; Luskanya/Executor II was unknown even to most Imperial forces; and the Intimidator, Knight Hammer, and Razor's Kiss were built after Endor, and would not be part of the thirteen.

 

Don't forget about the Enforcer. I've always assumed that the whole "second fleet" bit referred to there having been a several Numbered Imperial Starfleets (First Fleet/First Starfleet, Second Starfleet, etc), and we do know that there was a "First Fleet" that had an unidentified large ship as its flagship. Admiral Kohrin would therefore be the commander of the Second Starfleet. These would be the same pan-Empire central Naval strategic forces that were not assigned to any Sector Groups.

That's a novel explanation of the Cal-Seti mystery, and I can't believe that I'd never drawn a connection between the Yevethan skill at sabotage and the mysterious loss of the Black Fleet.

There having been an earlier ship named Eclipse serving as the Emperor's flagship could be something that would work, and I do like the idea of there having been name-reuse with the intention of causing confusion among Rebel asset trackers.

There's also a line from the proposal of then Moff Tarkin that was printed in several WEG books where he explicitly confirms the existence of "His Majesty's command ship", but never names it. The idea of the Emperor having his own personal flagship has existed since 1989. The early (in-Universe) date of Tarkin's proposal would necessitate the Emperor having had a flagship since the formation of the Empire.

 

I missed the Enforcer - I guess pulling up the old Challenge Magazines (which I have copies of 'em all, natch) will be on the list of material to add to the EUA. (Although being destroyed prior to Endor, it won't count towards the 13).

Good find! I never noticed this. No doubt that it was whatever was the top-of-the-line at any given moment. (The Mega-class concept seems to be the ultimate destination of Palpatine's designs - a mobile throneworld)

 

Some thoughts on ships. The Raddus could easily be a Mediator-class Battlecruiser. The T-70 can be a bridging design between the regular T-65 and the XJ line. The First Order TIEs can be the TIE/LNs we read being in the service of the Confederation. The TIE Silencer can be the TIE Blur that Caedus flies, they'd even both be flown by a dark side member of the Sky-Solo family.

 

Wasn't the Mediator basically a downscaled Viscount anyway? Mass produced version of the prototype, essentially. Also the Profundity could fit well, but not with its Rebel origins. I'd put it with the Scythe line in Legacy.

 

Finishing up Life Debt, but some of the material is shaping up re: the EUA. Some preliminary notes:

Coruscant - An interesting tidbit came up in Life Debt that the ISB was in charge of defense of that world and it was their ships guarding the planet. The obvious connection is that it's child play to link that directly to Isard; but it also goes a long way to explaining the NR's strategy in Wedge's Gamble - the relatively meager defense of the world consisted of ships under the direct control of Imperial Intelligence, and relied mainly on the Imperial Navy forces guarding the worlds adjacent to Coruscant (especially the route through the Azure Sector). By getting through a 'back door', they bypassed the Imperial Navy forces, which were less inclined to help the non-Naval forces at Coruscant, especially since it could've been a feint to draw them out of their strongholds.
That people were already revolting on the world makes sense, and also would speed the NR occupation of the world.
Grand Vizier Mas Amedda - Pestage is the Grand Vizier until 1 ABE, but it would make sense that Isard - whom we know retained only the title of "Director of Intelligence" - would put a figurehead forth. Mas Amedda would be the perfect choice, a toothless 'ruler' that probably was the one to formally surrender 'the Empire' when Coruscant fell. The IRC, already relocated, would've denounced the 'surrender' as illegitimate and a political stunt, which (in all honesty) it would have been. He then would drift off into obscurity just like in NewCanon.
The Capital of the New Republic - Chandrila is definitively under Imperial control if we take the timeframe of Aftermath to be the same - in fact, it is specifically blockaded by the Imperials in response to the seizing of Brentaal. So, where is the capital of the New Republic?
The early capital appears to be Mon Calamari. EGW states that the 'fledgling government' was being protected there, and in the NJO era, the provisional government moved to Mon Calamari after the fall of Coruscant.
However, with the declaration of the New Republic, its legitimacy would be in question as long as it was based on a remote Rim world (however, significant it was to the Rebellion). This would make the NR going to take Brentaal have more urgency; not only as a significant location but also as a place to establish their first 'real' capital.
Wedge Antilles - Keeping with the timeframe, Wedge is leading Rogue Squadron, so the mission at Akiva would be a Rogue Squadron mission. Norra would probably be there in an official capacity rather than a personal return home (although still with the intent to rescue her son) because (a) she knows the planet and (b) she's a pilot that flew alongside Wedge at the Battle of Endor.
The Liberation of Kashyyyk - 8 months ABE in the EU, and a much grander spectacle. Grand Admiral Syn is defeated by Admiral Ackbar there, with his flagship, the Silooth, vaporized. It sounds like an epic battle - called 'a one-on-one test of tactics'. General Solo is also said to have spearheaded the liberation of Kashyyyk. Rear Admiral Urian Orlan can be added to the EUA as leading the trio of ISDs normally stationed there. As the taking of Kashyyyk happened about a month before the Battle of Brentaal - and was used as the staging point for that battle - the difference between NewCanon and the EUA is that the NR didn't possess most of the Core and was interested in taking key worlds in the Outer and Mid Rim as they worked their way inward; therefore, instead of a one month gap between taking the prison and liberating the world, it would've happened at the same time. Leia and Han would've been visiting Chewbacca and the Kashyyyk government instead.

 

You know how I dealt with this? I followed Eddie 1969 approach. Yes, the Eddie from the Star Wars Timeline. He has to be the most positive star wars fan I have ever known. Thankz to his site, I collect almost everything with the exception of the Panini magazines. Those are hard to collect (German) because they don't ship to the US. But, I never cancelled the legends stuff from star wars. To me they still exists and everything is valid. I could read TFUII novel tonight and tomorrow pick up TLJ novel. It is all star wars and the stories are all exciting. In fact, if half the posters on the Sanctuary did the same thing, they wouldn't be so many negative posters on that thread. Legends is special because I grew up on that. It was my pass time, it got me through some very tough times in life, and just picking up a Vong series novel would make me feel good. I can never get rid of the novels that came before or the comic books. They were the true EU and kept us going while we only got the occasional movie. You see, the micro series was really the only true animation we had that was good. Droids and Ewoks was way too kiddie for me so this was kinda it. In 2008, we started getting TCW series and thought that was pretty good, but deep down inside, I knew that series would be a game changer for canon and when star wars was sold back on 10-2012 to Disney and the EU was decommissioned, I was not surprised to hear that TCW survived the purge into new canon.