ST The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

That was the movie spreading its moral messaging through speaker Rose. What isn't shown or told is what Finn is thinking or feeling or how his mind is changing. Rose is supposed to be his support character, not he her's. So really I think this is more failure to show what's going on because Finn's internal journey is kept rather mysterious just like Rey's internal journey is.

 

It doesn’t really matter why they need to discuss it. We were discussing whether this is an example of show or tell. Why it’s tell means zero to me, but I will say I disagree with you on it.

I agree with @Blastaar on this one. TLJ makes perfect sense of you watch it from a shipper’s perspective. It’s why I fully believe RJ is no different than tumblr shippers that write fanfic. When TLJ is approached with the idea that everything is ultimately about this convoluted “romance,” every decision RJ made becomes clear.

Stories that can be boiled down to shipping are generally trash in my experience. TLJ is dystopian YA romance that is almost always built around a shipping plot. I have read maybe a dozen books from that genre. None of them are superb. None of them are memorable. It’s the same crap repackaged and predictable, but the good ones are at least mindlessly entertaining before the end. TLJ doesn’t reach even that bar.

 

But the doppelgänger power didn’t kill Jedi. So why would the force projection kill Luke?

Edit: so @ Melina, if Jedi can learn force skills by just seeing into another force user’s mind, why didn’t they train all Jedi that way?

 

Definitely lower than R1.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...-shipments-down-sharply-force-awakens-1069479

 

Considering that R1 was supposed to be a throwaway interlude and TLJ the main big thing, this must be considered an enormous failure. Huge!

 

Hasbro said there was a decrease for Star Wars last yet but blamed it on Justice League and Thor: Ragnarok. In case anyone thinks I'm joking about that, I'm not: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/hasbro-reports-fourth-quarter-earnings-2017.html

 

I never liked the character.
And trying to push Klyo as a sympathetic character is a huge turn off for me too.

Klyo Ren isn't a five year old who doesn't know better, taught to do all this stuff.

I do believe parents have a responsibility to raise their kids right, but Klyo Ren is 30 years old and knows what he is doing is wrong.
So even if he wasn't raised right, he has no excuse. He chose evil of his own free will. And for what?!
Don't know what Disney was thinking.

And trashing Luke's character to try and make Klyo more sympathetic is a big no no.

Or since force ghost can interact with the physical and appear when they want, why didn't Yoda, Obi-wan, or any dead jedi appear in Palpatine's bed room
when he was sleeping and set him on fire with force lightning.

 

Looks like Mark Hammil not gonna return to the Ep9. Firstly he mentioned himself as an unemployed actor in the tweet to GotG director, then he tweeted to The Witcher show-runner that he'd like to play one of the characters in that tv series.
Never saw him showing such an activity in the last few years when he was busy with SW. I guess he really is done with it.

 

"Show, don't tell" can be via dialogue too. Summarization of something is not "show, don't tell" and their dialogue wasn't about summarization, it was relevant to the situation and to their POVs. In this case it's more about balance because what they actually saw is significant to the plot and not revealed.

All people for whom TLJ makes sense are shippers? Doubt it.

 

I disagree that a character providing a play-by-play of something they experienced that the viewer didn’t see ever qualifies as showing, not telling. Or maybe someone can come up with an example that would challenge that, there are usually exceptions to all rules, but I don’t see this as an exception. Being relevant obviously doesn’t transform it into showing. Everything in the movie should be relevant. Anything being told is relevant.

I didn’t take it as set up for a mystery box of what they actually saw. That could just be because I don’t actually care at all about what they really saw.

No, I said RJ’s decisions make perfect sense when viewed through that lens. Nobody that I know that liked TLJ saw the romance that he has made clear he intended. (Edit - at least, nobody that I know that liked it and took it seriously saw the romance). They’re also not shippers who spend their time on Tumblr. My sister, who like me has experience with YA, saw Reylo because she’s tuned in to the shipping world. And she hated it.

 

TLJ does not make sense from any perspective, the movie or RJ clearly makes the case that Kylo and Rey will not be a thing... but ship on if you must

 

I don't think TLJ even does make perfect sense from a shipping perspective.

I think it makes sense from a Star Wars perspective in which one knows that Anakin and Vader are not the same (Star Wars psyche model/redemption model) and the light side emphasizes compassion.

RJ applies these "principles."

 

Have you read much dystopian YA? Because Reylo could be lifted straight out of those stories. The whole premise of TLJ could be lifted straight out of those stories.

That Reylo isn’t going to get a happily ever after doesn’t undercut that. YA shipping is not about two characters getting to know each other, becoming attracted to each other, and then getting together.

 

Personally, I'm glad. Having him as a Force Ghost in IX wouldn't have changed what Rian did to the character and it would have just felt like a half-hearted attempt to "redeem" the trilogy or to get people back in the theater.

I'm not looking forward to any new content that includes Luke. What's the point when his story ends in the nihilistic "genius" that is his "arc" in TLJ,

 

I didn't buy anything leading up to TLJ because I waited for the prices to drop. After seeing TLJ, I'm not touching anything Star Wars-related ever again. Thank you, Disney.

 

I don't read dystopian anything, let alone YA dystopian

 

There are a lot shippers who are clearly don't think RJ's "decisions" make perfect sense and vice versa - a lot of not-shippers (and people who really don't know about "shipping") think that everything in TLJ makes perfect sense.

 

Why would he come back after RJ took such a giant dump on his character? Can you imagine spending YEARS of your life preparing to play the character that made you famous over 30 years ago only to

1) Be in one movie for 1 scene with no lines.

2) Have some director/writer decide to just destroy your entire character in movie #2 in the name of being "subversive"?

It was obvious from his comment at the Oscars that he is pissed as hell about the whole thing. As he should be. Luke remains the most popular character in Star Wars history. And he was treated like crap.

It would be like in Indy 5 if Indiana Jones was fat, useless, and a neo-Nazi. What a twist!

 

I’m not talking about the audience. When I look at RJ’s choices, they make picture perfect sense to me when I interpret them as though his focus was primarily on shipping Reylo. His decisions were about that ship. Like I already said, a person doesn’t need to be a shipper to like it. I’m starting to think, based on the novels, that his ship was edited back to be ambiguous in the movie intentionally. It’s like someone late in the process recognized they were producing Twilight trash. Based on people I know who like it, that was a good decision, if it happened. The one person I know that got super into Reylo from the movie didn’t take it seriously and more hate-loved it.

 

Precisely! Instead of thinking about it, people seem to attack those who question anything ad hominem.

Jyn Erso was a superb character. You felt her role in the story, related to the character right from the start as she grew, suffered, succeeded etc. Not so with Rey in my opinion. I personally loved Padme, Princess Leia and other female characters. I don't know people assume that you have to have an invincible character with no flaws, who is arrogant and beats everyone else up and say that is an awesome character?!

Also, can we do away with this 'we didn't know anything about the Emperor so it's okay we don't know anything about Snoke.' The Emperor works in Jedi because at that point there hadn't been 7 movies before it, we had minimal information about what had happened pre Episode 4. The question of who the Emperor was and how he came to power is there but it's not a very big question, an Empire exists and therefore it has to have an Emperor.


With Snoke it's different. We know from the previous movies the Emperor supposedly wiped out almost all the Jedi and was seemingly the most powerful Force User in the galaxy. So with the new movies we have this huge disconnect between what happened when we last saw this universe and what is happening now. This naturally raises questions... like where was this ultra powerful force user 30 years ago and why is he only now showing his face?


It's totally different because in the OT there is no frame of reference for what has come before so you don't need an explanation of where people come from to the same extent. Of course if you consider the 'sequel' trilogy more of a soft reboot than a true continuation then it might make sense. But it isn’t. Which is why it doesn’t. Bottom line is that these good films could have been made into Star Wars films. And GREAT films. A story with one flowing epic arc and GL’s touch was what made Star Wars what it was.

If anything it showed the utter disdain and contempt this so called Resistance has for its own people. Holdo spoke of Rose as if she were nothing more than dirt.

Precisely. In fact it is my understanding that George Lucas (the person who invented Star Wars which many sadly seem to have forgotten) wrote the scripts for a sequel arc that had a STORY and also connected all 9 films together.

And from what I understood, all OT characters would reunite. An explanation of what happened between ROTJ and Episode 7 would be told/shown. All 9 films (PT/OT/ST) would form one tale centering on the Skywalkers. And it would involve Vader/Anakin's grandchildren. Revolving around Luke's daughter and Solo's children. With one of the latter turning bad.

I believe one of the Solos was to be like Han. The other the one who turned dark/seduced by a dark Hand on behalf of a mysterious dark sider. And I don't think it's an accident that Lucas seeded the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis as to who this was going to be. And Luke's daughter was the one to focus the fight of the Light and be trained by him in Episode 7?

Yes oh what could have been. Pretty sure his trilogy and one cohesive saga would have been truly epic! But in the words of Obi Wan Kenobi, they were seduced by the dark side and really are lost!

I think Episode 7 could have been like what Batman Begins is. Flashbacks and exposition to set up the story. And then actually having a story. TFA failed us. And on those shaky foundations, TLJ didn't even continue or answer those questions, but went off on a tangent!

These films are enjoyable as just films. But as stories? Meh. As Star Wars? Meh. As part of the main saga? Make no sense.

There's a great video of Mark Hamil answering questions after TFA. He mentioned how the creators weren't judging the success of it on a good story, but on the money it made. The problem is Star Wars will always bring in people to see it. They stupidly decided not to write or continue the story to make it truly epic. They should have just produced George's scripts!

I believe he and others have also said this isn't George's story.

So sad that they seem delusional and only deal in absolutes. Anyone who questions the lack of story or feels disappointed is declared an enemy of the Republic.

Yes I personally think GL would be best to run the story side of things. It's his magic and story making that is missing here. As to who's bright idea it was to not use his scripts, they must be insane!

Don't think KK gets it. JJ also doesn't seem at this point bothered with story. He doesn't get that he's meant to be continuing a story, not telling a random one.

My concern with FIloni is that yes, he might make it more about the cartoon characters. I personally consider the movies canon above all else. And I detest that whole "Chip" nonsense about Order 66. The movies make perfect sense on their own. I.e. with an executive order and clone troopers obeying orders without question. So I wouldn't want the movies to be made too populist and child like for a television show. I also concur on the plot armour problem. Ahsoka is a cool character though. Personally I thought he went too off the track with Clone Wars. I wanted to see more of the war, not the stuff about witches and Maul (who should have been shown before TPM, not after). As in more Jedi, more CIS victories etc.

I personally think the director of Rogue One appeared to have struck the right balance. Give him Lucas' scripts and let him direct the sequels. But the damage is done for 2 out of 3, and it's not looking great. Episode IX is our last hope. Yes there is no other.


QUOTE="SaintKenobi1322, post: 54936961, member: 1379156"]

There’s no re-watch value. Even the oft-maligned PT had its moments. What scene in TLJ would people possibly want to see over and over again?

Yoda’s return would the only scene I can think of, because of the nostalgia of seeing ‘crazy’ Yoda from ESB again.

When these gushers go back and watch the Crait showdown again and again, they are going to realize that once you understand that Luke isn’t there and is never in any danger, the scene loses its tension and it becomes a giant build up to nothing.

Kind of like the whole film. People have said it is a movie about failure; I think it actually is a movie about disappointment.[/QUOTE]

I think seeing Coruscant in the ST would have been better. Showing us galactic exposition of the status quo like in the PT AND the OT would have been better.

The PT had a story with an arc. And characters like Padme you saw fall, succeed and could relate to. Rogue One too had a good story, a female character you can relate to in Jyn. And they fit into the story. The OT also has Princess Leia who fits into the story. The audience connects. We also connect with Han, Luke, Lando etc. R2D2, you will that little guy on.

With BB8 I'm all for him. Rose's sister Paige? All for her, except they killed her.

But Finn, Rey, Poe? I feel nothing. Rey is more irritating if anything because they appear not to give her a backstory or any semblance of being realistic or having a role in the story.

Snoke too, what are they doing not showing us who he is? It's like Episode I to VI never happened and I'm watching some other franchise. This was meant to CONTINUE the franchise and main saga story, not destroy it??


I liked the Luke - R2D2 moment. Don't know what happened to R2 after that?
Yes I liked Yoda. Why didn't we even see him in TFA?
And as for Obi Wan, Anakin etc why aren't we seeing them??

Yes was that Maz scene even necessary? At least have Maz as some part of the story. It feels pointless. And when is she going to tell us the story of the lightsaber. That seems more important than the Labor union and the Kanji club's finances in TFA.

Agreed!

The SKB attack had no meaning. It was a random scene. Unlike the attack on Naboo, we have no connection with a planet we have never seen before. Unlike Alderaan, we have no connection having no character speak of this planet at all. Unlike the PT and OT, we have no connection or any exposition/background of the state of affairs. The Death Star/Droid Army is the focus of the plot in the afforementioned films. In the ST, in TFA, we hadn't even seen SKB or heard about it. The focus was supposed to be Skywalker. And then this random scene of a random weapon firing on a random planet we have never heard of, seen or will ever see again. No emotional impact and not really adding anything to the story. No explanation of SKB either. And the film diverts to it as the focus. And somehow a handful of X-wings take on a weapon bigger than probably both Death Stars combined and they are more outnumbered than any fight we have seen in all previous 6 films. And no Jedi are present. And they apparently win. Okay then I guess??

They have introduced Time Travel to Star Wars Master Yoda...

Dangerous and disturbing is this move. Allow this introduction lightly the movie watchers will not

That seems like a step too far?!

And that is the problem. No one seems to mind the lack of story. Lack of backstory on Snoke. This isn't like the OT, you need an explanation. These are SEQUELS.

The map, the lightsaber regarding Luke in TFA. Needs resolving.

"Luke went to search for the First Jedi Temple" -> Luke is depressed and didn't want anyone to come???

And Rey being the protagonist in a Skywalker saga needs to be a Skywalker. People seem to be blinded by their lack of vision!!!!

Agreed! I sincerely hope this is some twisted by the dark side way of writing a sequels. It's messy, but hopefully resolves properly.

I cannot believe they are doing this. Rey has to be a Skywalker in a Skywalker saga. And Ren, we still have no explanation of his turn, what happened at the Jedi Temple. Who Snoke is. What happened after ROTJ. No linking this all with the PT and OT.

It's crazy! Also who is your avatar? Damn wouldn't mind seeing her in Star Wars!

What is upsetting is that the new creators don't recognise the meaning and talents of the old heroes and the galactic status quo. They don't explain anything at all. Where is the Empire? The Jedi etc?

And has seriously none of them heard of using Lucas's scripts or the Tragedy of Darth Plagues the Wise??

AGREED. The Sequels don't seem to acknowledge training. The Jedi Order. The Empire. TPM, AOTC, ROTS, ANH, ESB, ROTJ. They think they are a myth. But let me tell them this, it's real. All of it.

What are they doing? Their incompetence and lack of faith is disturbing!

I cannot believe they just threw out Lucas' scripts, apparently didn't watch Star Wars Episode I to VI and continue the story at all. They just wrote a random story which makes no sense around fixed characters they wanted and then put the OT cast in and Star Wars label on it. This could have been the most epic trilogy of all time with modern day film making equipment. What a waste.

Rey is just beyond ridiculous and quite arrogant at times. I liked Jyn Erso, Padme, Leia, much more. Luke and Anakin had a role and failed and succeeded.

Even poor little R2D2, where is his role anymore?
C3PO, the poor guy has been replaced by a Rey who can speak 6 billion forms of communication. It wouldn't surprise me if he once journeyed to Jakku and was beaten up by her, thus the red arm.

The writers appear not to have seen or understood Star Wars. To be fair, Rogue One's director seemed to get it. And I wish he directed using George's ideas. Mark Hamil also should have directed.

The Force is strong with you!

I concur on all of your points to be honest!

They didn't continue the story. They didn't acknowledge anything from the OT or PT. They didn't make this one complete 9 film saga as Lucas I am sure intended when he handed over 3 scripts for 3 sequels.

They created mysteries such as the status quo and what in the Force happened after ROTJ. Which they never answer..

They created mysterious characters with no backstory... they never answer anything

They created questions which they either never answer or create most pointless answer to which makes no sense

Then they ignore all the rules of the universe and just make everything up as they go along.

These aren't the Sequels you're looking for...

Star Wars was so much more and these could have been so much more. I feel like if Mark Hamil, Gareth Edwards (director of Rogue One) directed using GL's original scripts, we would have had the sequels we were looking for.

Luke's legacy is shattered and not explained. Why is he at the First Jedi Temple. What is with the blue milk? Rey beats up everyone. I believe C3PO also lost his arm to her after she told him she could speak 6 billion languages versus his 6 million. R2D2 also disappeared.

Han is told how to fly his own ship. Chewie indeed is treated like a walking carpet by Rey. Luke is beaten up with a stick. A girl with no training outdoes every Jedi and Sith in the history of the galaxy. Doing in 24-48 hours what a skilled Force user with a high affinity with the Force and having trained for perhaps a lifetime can't even do.

The former struggles, lessons of the PT/OT are ignored. Belittled and forgotten. The galaxy feels smaller and makes no sense.

So this is how Epic stories of Star Wars die... with thunderous applause.

I feel like the suns just set.

Because that is not the Jedi way. And the evil creators knew that. Those Rebel scum.

Mark frankly demonstrates not only his humour and wit, but a total love for the franchise he became part of. He clearly gets it. So does Lucas, Samuel L Jackson who's comments clearly said it all.

THIS

I also thought that Rey was possibly Luke's daughter (heavily hinted in TFA). Put into hiding on Jakku to protect her. Perhaps Luke suppressed her memories to conceal her identity and protect her identity. She would be his "Hope". And maybe the lightsaber awoke those memories. Or else maybe they should have just had her be with the old chap who was killed by Ren at the start. He could have been her guardian entrusted by Luke to safekeep her. She could have been out of the village gathering whatever and come back to find the place in flames. Discovering BB8 not by coincidence but on her way home. And thus having a reason to join the fight.

I personally think such a strong affinity to the Force would have to be a Skywalker. At this point. Unless we had other hidden Jedi like say Poe, Finn etc. Which would at least explain their unnatural abilities.

Perhaps Ben is even so angry because he disagreed with the Republic's apathetic ways. And in his temporary anger and lashing at his fellow Jedi forced by a student and egged on by Plageuis, he thought he had killed his baby cousin. And thus when he reunites now, sensing her, he is conflicted but also wants her to join him. Something. Anything with some story better than this. Pretty sure GL would have had a proper plan in the scripts he gave them. Which they ignored. That says it all for their intelligence really. If GL, the man who created Star Wars, and wrote the entire arc from 1 to 6, gave you a script. Are you seriously going to ignore that?????

Like the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis the Wise and what happened between ROTJ and TFA would be super helpful. And seems rather important to continue the story. Otherwise this 'anything can happen' bam mode means that we could switch from a scene of Luke to a random scene of Mufasa the Hutt raiding various planets to add to his new Coruscanti Empire. Because you know. Totally makes sense apparently according to the way they write the sequels.

 

There are other ways to interpret what RJ did...

(This comment applies before star destroyer sized post above)

 

Fair play to him if he doesn't want to get involved in IX because of how absolutely awful TLJ was and how it was a disgrace to the legacy of Luke Skywalker... but i can't help but think he's been chastised by Kathy and the Mouse House for being honest with himself and to the fans, and has now been left out in the cold.

 

What do you mean?

 

Why would Luke be in Episode 9 anyway? He didn't have any real connection with Rey. Leia is gone due to Carrie's passing. What would be his purpose in the movie?

 

I actually always tbought she learmed the Jedi mind trick from Kylo in their little mind battle in TFA.

I've never had a problem with Rey Nobody. In fact to me it's a great idea. However, I always thought the real mystery was who dropped her on Jakku and why she was so strong in the Force.

It would have been very easy to have someone interesting involved in her young life - even if that person was not a blood relation. That person(s) could have been integral in explaining her Force abilities and memory loss.

It's the mystery box of why she doesn't know who she is and why she's so powerful that was interesting. It was never just about who her parents were.

RJ wasn't interested, though. So we got a couple of nameless junkers and no further insught into what is now her clear Mary Sueness.

I hope JJ revisits this. It would be satisfying if her "place in all of this" was more than just what we've been given.