Lit Darth Caedus & Kylo Ren - A thematic comparison

Eh, she was already a trained and talented melee fighter on a world which is halfway between Pandora and Fallout 3.

I just was making a joke.

 

I'm pretty sure Caedus would channel his alternative universe father and say: That's not how the Force works!

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Even so he would thrash her with relative ease.

The main difference out of universe speaking between Jacen and Kylo is that their are dozens of novels with or about Jacen-we see his story and thus he is a far more developed complex character by default.

This may change at some point but I suspect it won't be for a while yet.

And personally I prefer Jacen and Caedus my problems with LOTF aside-Jacen is the character of the old eu I relate to the most.

A major thematic difference I think between them is then concept of sacrifice-Kylo is very much interested in his own satisfaction, Caedus forgoes his.

 

It may not happen for a very long time if ever.

The problem is, they wrote themselves into a corner with Luke's other students. Developing Ben would mean developing the other students. And these are all students who were easily killable or corruptible per 8. This is already very hard to believe as it is, but fleshing these guys out to be anything remotely resembling realistic characters will be hard when they are so obviously written as cardboard cutouts for Kylo to corrupt or kill in 7 and 8. There's a reason no one is talking about the Knights of Ren--no one knows how to even handle or write them, and there's no way all half a dozen of them can be fleshed out in 9 now within a 2 hour movie.

If they have not written an intriguing background for Snoke of all people by now, then they almost definitely have no backgrounds for Luke's students.

 

Your right and yeah this will be a major problem in developing an EU around the ST-as the ST has shot itself in the foot over this.

 

Also, call Kylo a manchild all you want, its true but he never accused his ****ing cape of betraying him now has he? Can't say the same for Caedus lol.

 

Well there was some context-the Jedi did place a tracking device on it and people anthropomorphize inanimate objects all the time.

 

Why did they bother developing the prequel Jedi when most of them were easily killed by Vader, Palpatine, and the clones in ROTS?


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I'm not saying it can't be done. But what you just cited shows why a lot of people feel the PT is a rehash. Also, there were movies to anchor the prequel Jedi depiction. The new EU will be going it alone, unless we are getting Luke Jedi Academy spinoff prequel movies.

 

No but he went on a petulant rage on his helmet, pretty much worse.

 

I think the real question is what would Darth Caedus think of the helmet? Will he think it looks ridiculous, or say hey I should be wearing this! I think more likely he will wonder "Why are you cosplaying as Darth Revan?"

 

Darth Caedus would see it as a sign of Kylo's immaturity and lack of serious devotion.

A mere child imitating his grandfather or revan without thought or reflection.

 

Kylo Ren would probably give a decent retort that Caedus is blinded by the past in his own way and unable to break free of the chains of his parents.

Hypocritical as that may be.

 

Helmet rage is symbolizing beating himself up and destroying the most prominent visage of his old self. Angry at a cape is angry at a cape.

 

Caedus endeavored to kill his parents without hesitation(or arrest them) and did not hesitate to either fire on the millennium falcon or declare them terrorists when they supported the confederation.

If Kylo speaks of Allana-Caedus would burn with rage.

Allana was his weakness and one his motivations and one I don't think he ever viewed as either a burden or liability-after all in invincible he considered it a victory when he saw Allana sitting on the white throne of balance.

 

So, he decided that the whole galaxy are bunch of hypocrites because his uncle had a moment of weakness where he didn't even fight back.

That's only makes him look more like a sociopath.

The new republic wasn't perfect and faced some problems, but it wasn't in any way chaotic for Kylo to decide to go full dark side to bring "order".

You want an example of "chaotic galaxy"? Just look at the time of clones war where the republic was corrupted, the system was falling and millions of people lost their lives. No one can claim that it was the same situation before FO take over.

 

Editted

 

Well, Sacrifice actually ends with Jacen putting on a helmet (which is not described in appearance) before he proclaims himself to be Darth Caedus, but the following three books never mention the helmet, and it came out of nowhere in the first place. So I don't know how to feel about that; it's always been one of the weirder small moments of LOTF, to me.

 

Maybe he was preparing for a special off screen GAG raid or something?

 

Yeah, but I don't recall Bloodline or Sacrifice ever mentioning him (or Ben, for that matter) wearing a helmet in other GAG raids. And the way it was phrased in Sacrifice made it seem significant that he was putting it on.

 

Maybe Traviss wanted to emphasize the Vader parallel-or most likely that was it.

Though Caedus doesn't use a helmet as you say at any real time in LOTF-no Inferno, Invincible, Revelation or elsewhere.

 

Very legitimate question - but so far, we still haven't gotten enough backstory on Ren to make comparisons easy.

Caedus takes the "more information on his fall" prize, just because of all the novels - but his process of falling is full of .

Sure, he cares for Allana, but he goes about trying to protect her in convoluted, and ultimately self-defeating ways. It doesn't help that prequelitis stalks Legends from DNT onward; the "tempted Skywalker" trope is bad enough, but with Jacen, it's just worse.

He's a flawed individual who should never have been a Knight in the first place - Jedi zoologist? Archivist? Sure.

But Jacen's tendency to view the galaxy, and more dangerously his relationships, through the lens of the Force makes him susceptible to manipulation. He doesn't self-analyze well, and when he does try ... it usually lands him in the wrong place.

Jacen IS an empath, this is true. But his ability to understand what he's sensing - to understand other sentients who LACK Force sensitivity - is paltry, at best, for much of his life.

He has difficulty connecting with Han as far back as the Corellian Trilogy (and, in an echo of Anakin Solo's later over-use of the Force, talks about "just reaching for objects with the Force," instead of healthy exercise). He seeks to be a hero, yet stumbles over his own foibles until he recognizes that he's got to master his skills before he can stand alone.

Even after he grows out of this immaturity, Jacen deludes himself that he's set aside his desire to be the star of not only his own narrative, but that of others. He tries to preach his view of the Force over that of others, most often venting his frustrations in duels with his younger brother.

And trying to quit the Force cold turkey, whether voluntarily or not, just confuses Jacen. He gains a greater appreciation for other life-forms after Traitor, but taking a stand against genocide isn't necessarily greater empathy - it's just decency (not that Jacen was a homicidal maniac before Traitor).

Overdosing on the Force in TUF doesn't do anything to improve his outlook. Jacen basically spends the next 5 years IU doing what he'd spent his later adolescence doing - seeking knowledge, but not necessarily understanding himself well enough to properly apply it.

And yet ... we see shards of what could've been. A caring mentor to a younger cousin, a loving husband and father ... but there's also flashes of frightful violence, and excuses made in the course of those acts.

There are far better ways to deal with a half-Joined child (even a Force-strong one) than risking choking him - Jacen puts Ben at risk by grabbing him by the throat in TUQ, instead of just Force-stunning him. Later in the same fight, Jacen calls on his negative emotions to fuel his Force use, and doesn't immediately understand Tenel Ka's concern about the bruises on Ben's neck.

Plus, whether it's ego or desperation, Jacen's fall started with sheer ineptitude on his part in Betrayal.

Letting a crazed victim of Sith mind games detonate their Y-Wing, then walking into an unknown situation with a devotee of dark-side lore (and siding with her, IN a dark-side nexus of a Sith Lord known for remote illusions) - and then trusting his Force visions when they might well be manipulated by Lumiya? No, Jacen did not start his Sith career well at all.

It's telling, and tragic, that Jacen Solo was his most human - most in tune with the people who truly mattered in his life - during his fall.

He seemed to truly want the best for Ben as his apprentice - a surrogate son? - but went about it horribly. And, when Ben could no longer justify standing with Jacen, the nascent Sith Lord kept sinking into excuse-laden horrors, delving into depravity in his manipulations of Tahiri.

But, despite the stupidity and failures to communicate that led to the needless tragedy of Invincible, Jacen did reach out, with honest compassion for the two most important people in his life at his life's end.

As far as "success," though ... Darth Caedus only succeeded in uniting most of the galaxy against himself, and killing a lot of innocents.

As for Kylo ... he very much comes off as a spoiled brat. Until we get more on his later formative years, I can't really say he impresses, beyond being cunning and having a few additional Force-tricks.

 

You have a lot of insight but I have to strongly contest your use of the word "overdosing" in TUF. What Jacen experienced should not be considered a drug high-it should be viewed as an incredibly important and cosmically groundbreaking event-Jacen achieved something incredible-through his empathy and humility he became in essence an avatar of the light side and the unifying force(or cosmic force).

 

Darth Caedus: AT LAST, MY PORTAL TO ANOTHER WORLD HAS OPENED.

*has entered Kylo Ren's room*

Kylo Ren: Who are you?

Darth Caedus: I am Darth Caedus, grandson of Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith.

Kylo Ren: The Sith must end like the Jedi.

Darth Caedus: Who are you?

Kylo Ren: I am Kylo Ren, grandsom of Darth Vader.

Darth Caedus: Weird. Nice outfit, though.

Kylo Ren: Thank you. I am ruler of the galaxy and leader of the First Order.

Darth Caedus: I am leader of the Galactic Alliance.

Kylo Ren: Sweet, how did you swing that?

Darth Caedus: Rider on a bill in the Senate.

Kylo Ren: Huh...that's a bit less dramatic than mine.

Darth Caedus: How did you do that?

Kylo Ren: Killed my master with a girl I liked.

Darth Caedus: Was she your cousin or sister?

Kylo Ren: What? no!

Darth Caedus: Well, I killed my aunt!

Kylo Ren: That's not terribly dramatic. I killed my father.

Darth Caedus: Really, Han's dead?

Kylo Ren: Also, Luke, but I can't take credit for that.

Darth Caedus: Awesome! No one will oppose you now.

Kylo Ren: Eh, said girl. Also mom.

Darth Caedus: Does she have a special force bloodline?

Kylo Ren: Nope, just kind of wicked strong.

Darth Caedus: So why are you doing this?

Kylo Ren: Uncle Luke waved a lightsaber at me and I was corrupted by my master. You?

Darth Caedus: Tassles. Also, something about my daughter turning evil and needing to stop it.

Kylo Ren: Huh. Did anyone try to redeem you?

Darth Caedus: Nope. You?

Kylo Ren: The girl and dad. Honestly, I was kind of disappointed in my uncle.

Darth Caedus: Huh, it seems like yours cared more.

Kylo Ren: Yes. However, at least I don't feel my cape betrayed me.

Darth Caedus: What was that goofy mask? Where did you get that, a Revan cosplayers club?

Kylo Ren: *ignites lightersaber*

Darth Caedus: Beware, I have FLOW WALKING! It's like time travel but you can't change anything.

*Ezra's force ghost snorts in one corner*

Kylo Ren: I can catch energy blasts!

Darth Caedus: Yes, well I have like 30 novels about me. Try and beat that!

Kylo Ren: Movies trump novels!

*clash of light*

 

I did not read LotF - would someone mind terribly explaining all this "Caedus betrayed by his cape" business?