Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

This is my only response

Rey is now carrying that torch. Luke himself may not be able to save broomboy, but the Jedi are reborn. Luke's role is not to make the galaxy have hope the he will be there for them, it is to light the spark for them to save themselves. Rey is that spark, and she will burn the FO down

 

We had this story before in the Dark Knight and the Dark Knight Rises. The people of Gotham got a story of heroic Harvey Dent and the people went good for a while. Then what happened? Bane told the people the truth, and it all went wrong.

I'm seeing Kylo read a letter aloud a la Bane, telling the galaxy how Luke abandoned them and ran away, pulled a lightsaber on his student because he had twitchy nerves, and threw away his lightsaber when asked to help. And it's all true. And the galaxy will take it about as well as the people of Gotham took it (not well at all).

The people will turn on Rey the way John Blake/Robin turned on James Gordon once he found out the truth.

Broomboy: Those padawans under your training now, getting killed by the First Order, joined the Jedi based on a lie?

Rey: The galaxy needed a hero...

Broomboy: It needs it now more than ever. You betrayed everything you stood for.

Rey: There's a point, far out there when the structures fail you, and the rules aren't weapons anymore, they're... shackles letting the bad guy get ahead. One day... you may face such a moment of crisis! We gave the galaxy what it needed and it kept my hands clean!

Broomboy: [disgusted] Your hands look plenty filthy to me, Rey.

 

But Luke did not straight up lie to the galaxy. Also Batman left, and Gotham enacted the Dent act hastily which was a mistake. Bane got Gothamites to rebel cause they had legit been betrayed, Batman left them, their hero was a murderer, and the law that now had imprisoned hundreds without parole was based on a lie. That makes sense as to why people would be angry, Luke not being omnipotent does not really strike me as something that would make the people of the GFFA turn on their heroes. Why would they turn on Rey cause Luke made a mistake in the past? Plus who would trust Ben? Heck that's part of what was so dumb with DKR, why trust the guy who snapped someone's neck on live tv? I mean I know Tom Hardy is awesome, but take it with at least a bit of a grain of salt.

Also yeah Luke ran away, they already guessed that, the point is he came back. That's sorta the lesson. Like he tells Leia "no one's ever really gone". Yeah he is partly to blame for Ben becoming Snoke's apprentice, yeah he ran away, yeah he is now dead, but the entire theme of the film is that even if people do not always live up to our legends of them; the legend itself never really dies as long as it matters to people. Luke was not always able to maintain the perfect hero symbol, but Rey still followed that ideal and in doing so saved the Resistance. You idea only works if the franchise throws aside the entire theme of TLJ and frankly ROTJ for that matter

 

You are too focused on the literal friend. My statement was not one of what Luke can actually do, it was what the galaxy perceives him as being able to do. We all know he died, we are the audience. But to the galaxy, he came from nowhere (the Resistance knows there's no other way in) and he returned to nowhere (as all of those First Order soldiers saw), and in between he left the most powerful man in the galaxy looking like a rage-addicted fool. @Vialco no, he did not manifest a lightsaber and kill Kylo Ren. Obi-Wan did not kill Darth Vader in A New Hope, but he still defeated him, because "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." When we are dealing with Jedi, the spiritual battle is more important than the physical. We've seen what happens when the physical battle is prioritized (Anakin versus Dooku in Revenge of the Sith, or Luke versus Vader in Return of the Jedi until the moment he throws his saber down). That is the path to the dark side.

Luke won, and it's my hope that Episode IX demonstrates that in so doing he has opened a path by which Rey can win once and for all.

 

Yeah, I may be literal, but I'm trying to compare Luke's show with the closest thing we have here on Earth (no offense to anyone intended) - Jesus. Some people saw Jesus resurrect and it gave them hope and we have Christianity.

However, without further appearances by Jesus, Christianity fragmented until we have so many sects today. Atheists and others left in droves once they realized Jesus wasn't coming back. Yeah, the Roman Empire fell--centuries after Jesus' claimed resurrection, but one can argue we have just as corrupt if not worse governments around today, 2000 years afterwards, just by reading the news.

If we equate Luke's inspiration to Jesus' resurrection and then Kylo to Tiberius Caesar--well going by the real world history, Kylo doesn't have much to worry about in the immediate future (maybe the FO will fall centuries after he dies, but I doubt he'll care). Especially when the new trend of the Jedi isn't combat readiness but monkhood style contemplation etc. Kylo will just make them all martyrs. And if Rey is equated to Peter, it doesn't look good for her.

 

Fantastically put. Plus if we are gonna be using retired incarnations of Batman, I think what Luke did can be compared to Batman Reborn. The Bruce Wayne Batman is dead (not really but for all intents and purposes he is) but only his closest friends no this. The public suspects he is dead or gone and that Dick's Batman is a new guy, but no one is sure. So technically the OG Batman is dead and this new guy clearly is not him, but that does not undo the fact that people are still afraid of both the Dick Knight and of the myth of the original Batman.

So people may begin to think Luke is gone, but no one is certain. Having Rey around might just enhance the legend of the Jedi

 

see my previous post, I moved on comparing Luke to another franchise from instead comparing his show to reality to see how well his movement would fare against Kylo. Going by my analysis, it doesn't look good for Rey, if 9 follows real life.

 

Yeah but that metaphor falls apart when you take into account that there is now a second Jesus with Jesus powers running around. It's futile to try and find a one to one comparison for TLJ and our history and try and use it for your argument. After all these stories are kinda sorta written....by people.......who can make the sequence of events however they want. That and even going by his

Ok...........SW is fictional.......It sucks and that fact makes life all the more painful, but yeah it does not have to follow real life. I mean sure SW has taken inspiration from history at times, but last I checked Nixon could not shoot lighting from his finger tips........that we know of

edit: there is a criminal lack of photoshoped images of Nioxn as Palpatine

 

You should not make that comparison! It is not a good one!

If you want to talk about "the closest thing we have on Earth" you cannot then take the resurrection story as literal. If Yeshua the Nazarene was a real man (and I believe he was based on the evidence, but I am open to the fact that this is arguable!), if he was a single man (and not an amalgam of multiple prophets), his strength was in his message. The resurrection story wasn't written until 200 years after he died, after all, but Christianity existed before that. It started as multiple sects, individualized groups writing their own stories about him. Not all of them believed in the resurrection, not all of them believed in the apostles that came after him, they often believed in radically different paths to salvation. That's why the epistles exist in the first place; they are parts of a conversation that we are missing more than half of (the letters from the congregations) because the congregations argued with the people who tried to establish themselves as authorities on these matters (like Paul, who wasn't even there). The resurrection story becomes more important to Christianity as a whole after Rome starts making martyrs of them (a phenomenon that has been a little exaggerated in its scope, also).

I'm sorry if the way I'm stating this is controversial, I just think, like, if you want to talk the secular history of Christianity, lets do that, we can compare why those stories exist to why the Star Wars story exists, the lessons each of them are driving at, the reasons various phenomenon appear in the narrative. If you (or anyone reading this) wants to talk about the Christ story as literal? Don't compare it to Star Wars cuz Star Wars is fiction.

EDIT: And I'm way off topic again, sorry! I think this conversation is happening across a couple different threads and I keep losing track of which one I'm in.

 

Yeah I guess this probably belongs in the Jedi thread "Unlearn what you have learned".

In any case, the state of the galaxy: it's just chaos. Many people will die. At this point, we should probably just play a game of which systems (EU or canon) will side with FO or NR. Which systems will be inspired by Luke?

The problem is, are any of these systems willing to take the risk of becoming a Hosnian or Alderaan?

On that alone I think Taris will go FO. You could just see their senator quaking in RO at the very mention of a Death Star.

 

Despite thing all being somewhat off topic, I think this has been the most interesting version of this discourse on the boards thus far

I am tempted to take votes on what systems will choose which side. $20 says Commenor goes Centrist

 

If I were Kylo, I would grant amnesty to any world that has a citizen who is a Knight of Ren. So if the 6 KOR are from 6 worlds, those worlds get amnesty. People would be BEGGING to join the Knights of Ren to save their homeworld.

This would shift the balance of power in the state of the galaxy real quick.

What does Rey have to offer in comparison?

 

Astropolitics??

 

Forget 9 the movie, just release it as a Rebellion game. Multiplayer would be great. One person plays Rey, the other Kylo. You use every tactic available to recruit worlds to your cause and whoever gets the most worlds and wipes out the capital of the other side wins.

 

Not living under a regime of baby faced fascists, possibly getting to hang out with Oscar Isaacs, and not having to wear a stupid hat

 

Thanks, I do my best.

 

Millions are living under regimes run by baby faced fascists, and forced to wear hats on dictator-promotion parades now in 2018. The FO has a Starfleet while the NR as of yet may really have been wiped out at Hosnian, or are otherwise so incapacitated or demoralized they couldn't answer Leia. And if people do answer Leia after Luke's show, not sure these are the guys you want... If that's what it took for them to show up, who knows if they'll run again the moment morale declines?

 

We must have different definitions of defeat. Because to me, Luke lost. He hasn't defeated Kylo Ren any more than Obi-Wan defeated Vader. The Dark Lords are still walking around, killing, oppressing, enslaving. They haven't been defeated, not yet.

Moral victories are worth nothing when the enemy has killed you and is overrunning your base. We saw no evidence that the First Order forces consider Kylo a joke. If anything, they obey him without question.

The First Order and their Supreme Leader will fall, but not at the hands of the deceased Luke Skywalker. Rey and the Resistance will be the ones who take down Ren. What did Luke Skywalker teach Rey anyways aside from a single meditation technique?

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This is very well articulated. And even if the galaxy considers Kylo a joke, so what? We have world leaders today who are considered a joke and do even more ridiculous things than Kylo does, and their power and abuse of it still affects everyone.

Saying Crait was a Rebel victory because they escaped is like saying Hoth was a Rebel victory because they escaped. Yet Hoth is consistently portrayed as a Rebel defeat in tie in media.

 

And yet I did not say Crait was a Rebel victory. I said it was a victory for Luke.

AND STAR WARS IS A FAERIE TALE. I don't know why you keep coming back to the real world, yes there are parallels, but the story is still going to work off faerie tale logic rather than real world logic.

That's why a "moral victory" means so much. Even in the real world a moral victory can be something inspiring, something revolutionary; in a faerie tale it is everything. That's why Luke's story in Return of the Jedi ends with him throwing away his weapon. Because that is the only thing that can save him, his father, and the galaxy. In the real world, that's where Luke dies, his friends never learn what happen to him because they die too, and the galaxy learns to accept Imperial rule. Good thing Star Wars is better than that.

 

To turn the discussion back to the wider Galaxy, I find it interesting that there literally no allies willing to come to Leia's aid.

We know Inferno Squad was down to two members and off on another mission along with Snap Wexley and a few others.

I suspect that the revelation of Leia's true parentage cost her a lot of support. Imagine if you've been an close ally and friend of the Princess for decades. You share a grievance against the Empire and tyranny because Darth Vader killed your family and also made your friend watch her own planet be destroyed.

Of course, Leia shares nothing with Vader aside from DNA, but the rest of the Galaxy doesn't know that. I imagine Leia lost a lot of supporters when it was revealed that her biological father was Darth Vader.


She was forced to resign in disgrace and many of her former allies wouldn't even speak to her. Maybe that's why some of the people she contacted from Crait didn't respond.

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I don't really begrudge people for not showing up. What would even another MC85 have done? I mean I guess it could buy time maybe get some transports down and those could get away, on the whole they are not really cowards for not showing up there. Plus a lot of the NR forces are right now scattered among several worlds, many would not be in communication with Leia and the Resistance. The heroes do have the chance of a fleet being built up soon. Also just cause people IRL have to live under fascists and/or authoritarians does not mean people would be unwilling to fight if given the chance. French Resistance anyone? Tiananmen Square? The Bolsheviks? Serbia in WWI? Any of those apply

 

It is pretty insane, isn't it.

Kylo Ren defeated the Last Jedi, overthrew his master, and conquered the galaxy.

He really has one upped his idol at every turn.

Then again, I wonder if this was what Rian Johnson intended or if it's just a misreading of how the audience would see it.

 

I think for sure it was intended. I think what Rian wanted for Ben in that ending was for him to get everything he wanted, and yet to be more fractured than ever.

 

A fair argument could be made that an author's intention that's not clear in the work itself isn't canon. A work has to stand on its own.

For example, take Dumbledore from Harry Potter's dating choices. These aren't in any of the books or movies themselves, only in interviews with Rowling. Hundreds of years from now, obscure interviews with Rowling might not be available to tell us what Dumbledore's dating choices are.

If an author's intention isn't in the work, is it canon? It's an ongoing question. This is especially relevant when some authors change their minds all the time, i.e. Lucas himself for instance.