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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Marvel Cinematic Universe’s impact on new Star Wars films

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Ender_and_Bean, May 14, 2018.

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  1. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    Then to tell you the truth I'm not even sure why you're on the Sequel Trilogy forum then.

    If all you like from Star Wars is only the OT, and you dismiss everything beyond it.

    *shrugs*
     
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  2. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    [​IMG]

    1918 newspaper.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Sergeant Alvin York is one of the most decorated soldiers in US history.

    20 years after the First World War, and the medals were handed out, and the men came home with any number of issues, World War II began.

    World War II didn’t negate the significance or heroism of the 2 decades of peace those brave men fought for. The First Order doesn’t negate the heroism of the OT either. Peace is temporary and should be cherished as a result.

    3 decades of galactic peace with weaponry like this around is significant and can never be taken away. Those decades happened and my guess is that IX will show that people miss those days and will fight back in IX to reclaim the glory years that the OT3 helped deliver.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  3. ImpreciseStormtrooper

    ImpreciseStormtrooper Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    I don't want SW to simply be another MCU.

    How they build and layer characters over multiple movies is interesting, though.

    The nature of comic book movies is that they start with a character, work heavily on a backstory, then throw them into peril.

    The intersting thing is once this formulaic process is dispensed with it is THEN that the characters become interesting.

    Personally, I found Captains America to be a fairly vanilla and uninteresting hero. What amazes me is how he has grown into one of the most complex and intersting heroes in the MCU.

    I think a lesson for SW is to never tread water. Never get satisfied that enough has been done. Build, build and build the characters. Because if you get satisfied you get stagnant, and ultinately the characters are all that matter in the end.

    Watching how the ST have handled the droids, Chewie, ancillary characters from the preceding OT, even Yoda, you get the sense they think they've done enough. They just need these characters to appear on screen in costumes as a box ticked now.

    Chewie's grief for Han could have been a movie itself. Never happened. Why?
     
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  4. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    RO added to IV.
    From the sounds of it Solo will add to IV, V, VI, VIII, TPM, and the animated series at a minimum.

    So, it does seem like they are looking to connect and world build and fill in backstory more and more.
     
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  5. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In the Eu, The Jedi Order has returned and flourished. The galaxy is also more United than it has been since before the Clone wars. It’s a big galaxy. Give us other stuff besides the Empire and Sith.
    When Chewie died in the EU, Han’s grief was amazing to follow. The monologue at the end of VP, the Chewbacca memorial comic, Agents of Chaos, the ending of TUF. Handled so much better than Han’ Canon death.
     
  6. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    I agree as to what the OBVIOUS intent of the filmmaker was. I just don't buy it. It's preschool logic. The moral victory is worthless when the actual, factual outcome is the entire galaxy falling into fascism. Kylo didn't lose if we use any real definition of the word "lose."
     
  7. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    Aside from the singular quality of Kevin Feige's foresight, Star Wars would be wise to ignore the MCU entirely. I grew up on Marvel comics and Star Wars; I love them both. Hell, these are the only two franchises to which I pay any attention. I definitely do not want them to emulate each other... at all.

    In order to maintain the quality and integrity of each franchise (one of which has recently suffered a significant amount of damage), it is of the utmost importance each is allowed its space and is cultivated such that they remain as distinct as possible. For the MCU, that just means keep on, keeping on. For Star Wars that means they need to show some restraint. Star Wars is currently a trend chaser. Star Wars at its best is a trend setter.

    The points regarding humor/force/legacy/etc have been argued ad nauseum. If those who think TLJ was an excellent Star Wars movie, but also think that Star Wars needs to learn from the MCU were going to swayed by those of us that simply crave the Lucas approach and just want to dive deeper (much, much deeper), that would have happened already...
     
  8. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    The Marvel Cinematic Universe is a testimony that a studio can become rich and powerful through the unlikeliest factors:

    1) Having different IPs (and IPs that were in the B-list range rather than A-list) with completely different tones and styles operate within one universe (and not simply be VS movies).
    2) Creating dozens and dozens of sequels without relying on the trilogy format that ironically Star Wars set the standard for back in 1983.

    The last factor is the biggest strength and weakness of the MCU. By ridding itself of the trilogy format (aside from each IP getting three movies dedicated to one character), it allows more time and development for the characters, story and world building, creating a deeper and richer world without trapping audiences in the theater for 3 hours or being forced to cut out some of that stuff for time constraint. It is also its biggest weakness because to truly appreciate something as grand and epic as Infinity War is to watch every single Marvel movie beforehand to get an idea of who the characters are or why certain events happened. If you just watched The Avengers movies, you will be missing key information in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Captain America: Civil War, Thor: Ragnorak, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. These films, while acting as their own movie for their respective characters, are essentially sequels to Avengers building up to the next Avengers movie.

    The Star Wars Saga can't really operate on that thanks to the numerical system it employed. The Episode Number and Title imply to the audience that these are the essential movies to watch to understand the entire story of the Skywalker Saga, and you don't have to watch movies like Rogue One. This is why Dave Filoni had to kill off Darth Maul in Rebels because TPM showed Maul being sliced in half by Obi-Wan and Maul was never seen again for the rest of the saga. It's an unofficial rule that Film Canon overrides the rest of the franchise canon even though SG would argue otherwise. And it's a rule that even Marvel has to adhere to with Agent Coulson not appearing in Marvel movies post-Avengers despite being alive and well in the TV series. The character was considered deceased in the films and unless they explain it in the movie, would cause confusion for the audience watching only the movies.

    Star Wars has it a bit worse since the Episode labels gives audiences who do not want to watch all the Star Wars films an easy list of Star Wars films to watch. They'll ignore Anthologies like Solo or Rogue One if they don't have time or money to every last Star Wars film whereas with MCU, they'll be asking their friends and family which movies do they need to watch and which movies can they skip. It's actually a clever way to make the audience pay more because they can never be too sure which movies are necessary to watch for the future Avengers movie. Star Wars should not do that because in theory, the Episode Titles have everything you need to understand the story without resorting to EU materials.
     
  9. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 7, 2018
    No. Because my cynicism is AT THE END OF TLJ - it's for three people, two of whom have no particular reason to fight, being stuck in a fight with about 18 others, that they have no chance to win. Also, I'm not a Jedi Master, who had a chance to fix things, who knew what had gone wrong but apparently tells no one before he hightails it to Fortress, sorry, Island of Solitude to brood on what he did wrong, for reasons that don't make any sense.

    You keep bringing up World War I and twenty years of peace. The seeds of World War II were sewn World War I, not by the soldiers, but by the people who made the peace. There are problems we still have in the world that stem from the Treaty of Versailles and the associated treaties. Also, there was a Great Depression during that 20 years, the Spanish civil war, conflicts in Asia, the Spanish flu epidemic and so on. It wasn't all sweetness and light.

    And it wasn't a STORY. Real life is not the fairy tale Star Wars is supposed to be. The victory in ROTJ was supposed to be the start of better things and the OT3 went through arcs that changed them as people from ANH to ROTJ. But I'm not going to go through it one more time, because you're fine with how the characters were treated.

    Because I'm unhappy about the direction they're going and I enjoy discussing it in the Sanctuary and commenting in other threads. I wasn't aware that I had to evidence a love for the ST to discuss it.

    I just don't see a point in Disney's deconstruction and remix and reboot of the OT when they bought an entire universe to play in. To me, pretty much every decision they've made it to make the SW universe smaller and less magical. Our mileage varies.
     
  10. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    The efforts and sacrifice of those heroic soldiers can’t fend off disease or consumer confidence but your points on quality of life between the Wars and the lingering effects of each war are nevertheless worthy of mention. So, thank you for doing so.

    I do believe your points serve my larger point though, which is to say that the ST works for so many in part because we’ve seen war return sooner after the heroic efforts of others in shorter periods than what the OT characters achieved and that the OT’s period of peace was significant.

    The OT3 weren’t infallible. They were united around a common enemy, around friendship and in the case of Han and Leia... attraction. But when that common enemy becomes a son and a nephew and Luke experiences what it really means to make a horrible choice and contribute to catastrophe than the OT3 is suddenly out of their element and running low on the youthful idealism that typically fuels war. And it brought out the worst in them briefly and I can absolutely understand why so many wouldn’t want to see that or experience that. It’s painful for many of you. It’s another chapter of life lessons from the OT3 to me and others though and though I’m sad they’re gone I’m glad to have been able to spend more time with each of them and see Han and Leia unite one last time and see Luke atone to family and become one with the Light after a crisis of faith. These events added depth to the Skywalker saga for me and many others.

    For you, it sounds like Star Wars is the OT3 and the happy ending and you wanted that indefinitely for them. For me, the magic of the OT3 was the same as the magic of history’s greatest mythological characters. It’s more what they taught me about life and that includes hardship. The potential for storytelling in the GFFA is immense. Luke, Han and Leia all taught us as kids and they continued to with us now parents of our own and them all senior citizens. The ST added new challenges and depth to all 3 through their end of life arcs. Solo, Luke and Leia anthology films may add even more to their earlier lives (if they deliver those stories) but beyond that their function in this myth is largely through and now new characters will teach new audiences about life again from their own perspectives and character traits. If not in this ST than in future Star Wars movies. Indeed, our mileage varies.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
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  11. Strategize

    Strategize Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 18, 2017
    The only thing they need to learn from marvel is to move forward. These "A Star Wars Story" prequel films feel like inconsequential and pointless filler. Regardless of quality.

    They should be moving forward and expanding the universe and it's characters. Only do prequels if it's like 1000 years earlier. There's really is no reason why IX should be the end if they really wanna keep SW going for decades.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  12. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014
    It's the message of Hope. It's pretty much been Star Wars' message since 1977. And since the First Order will be destroyed by the spark that survived, I'm not sure how that will be seen as a "victory" in the long run.

    But you be you...
     
  13. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    I will thanks. I’m sure that message of hope resonates real well on the surface of all the major systems of the galaxy as the FO cruisers fly into orbit blocking out the sun.

    If you can’t grant that it’s a defeat on the day the galaxy falls to evil, then you’ve eliminated all stakes in this story. Either the defeats matter, or nothing matters. But yeah, you do you.

    While you’re doing you, though, I don’t see the point in tripling down on arguing that Kylo lost when your point boils down to, “he won but it doesn’t matter because hope!” Hope and defeat are two entirely different concepts.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  14. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Yes it does. Because the only lessons I see in the ST are that ageism is fine and dandy, that old heroes can be treated like throwaway garbage, no matter that Luke, Han and Leia carried this franchise on their backs and the whole point of ROTJ is that they break the old way, repair what happened before and start a new course.

    Well, no they didn't. Because the "creatives" can't come up with anything but Rebels v. Empire one more time, Luke, Han and Leia get ripped apart and turned into the reason that everything went to hell. The movies could have told virtually the same story without tearing Luke, Han and Leia apart, ignoring their love and friendship, and throwing it out because...well, I would have said Rey, Finn and Poe have to be the best ever, but that's not true after TLJ. It's because Rey has to be the bestest Jedi evah in ten minutes but, more essentially, because Kylo Ren has to be bad and then good and then redeemed over Han and Luke's dead bodies because he had such a bad childhood raised in privilege that he had to go join the Space Fascists because of reasons! That we're never shown or told, except Luke, Han and Leia are blamed for it.

    So, no, I don't get it and I never will because they seem fine with still selling the OT 3 even as they trash them. If they had left Luke, Han and Leia out of it, given them an exit that kept them together and heroes - I might have gone along with the ST. As it is, though, the ST is schizophrenic - we're supposed to care about Rey, Finn and Poe's journeys, but that's given short shrift, while at the same time, care about Luke, Han and Leia, but there's so much omitted and changed, it doesn't make sense either.

    To drag this all back to Marvel vs. LFL - in Marvel, the past stories are either the focus (Captain America First Avenger) or worked into the plot with enough information to make it affect the new plot (Winter Soldier or Black Panther). TFA and TLJ throw in the past in fleeting bits of hamfisted exposition or flashbacks and expect us to just take at face value that Luke ran off like a coward, or Han went back to smuggling for no reason at all except some mumble about "didn't want to see me," but hey, don't forget we have Death Star 3.0!

    The difference is I don't know Howard Stark from a fencepost but I get the jist of the story from the movie. I KNOW Luke, Han and Leia and three minutes of exposition or Ford and Hamill carrying it all through their acting isn't enough to explain how we got from ROTJ to TFA/TLJ. They want to keep selling books and animated series and comics and who knows what else to explain it - no. That's a cheat and a crutch. They want us to care about the new characters and the old but they don't do enough in either direction.
     
  15. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014
    Well, you at least admit the narrative structure intended by the film makers. I mean, sure, the FO achieved a tactical victory, but they failed to close the deal. Now they pay the price. And sure, the defeats are important. Of course they are, especially in the middle chapter of the trilogy. That's the narrative structure, right? But as with ESB, we see the seeds of ultimate victory for the good guys, and the bad guys know they haven't dominated. Like Vader looking off into the stars, knowing he failed to turn or kill his son, Kylo knows that the survival of the Resistance and the fact that he failed to corrupt Rey robs him of true victory. You can not be convinced by that, I suppose, but you individual reception is separate from the narrative message that Johnson clearly intended. And the narrative structure is what I believe is at issue. If you're just complaining that it didn't work for you, that's a separate issue.
     
  16. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    No they closed the deal. They took over the galaxy. This to me is like arguing that the Emperor lost at the end of RotS because the twins were born. No. The Emperor won that day. He lost 20 years later when Vader threw him down a shaft.

    In ESB, our heroes didn’t lose their fleet or the war. The Empire was already in charge of everything. At the point in the story, keeping the fleet alive was a victory. The Rebels successfully evacuated Hoth, fleet intact. Luke suffered defeat. Han and Leia suffered defeat. Lando suffered defeat. The Rebels didn’t. There is no comparable “ultimate victory” for the Resistance unless you consider mass slaughter and an eliminated fleet as the galaxy falls to evil, where it hadn’t been ruled by evil before, a victory. Which... just by definition, it’s not.

    If Kylo doesn’t see ruling the galaxy as a true victory, he’s a moron... so yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised if that is how he sees it.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  17. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014

    LOL... Okay. I guess you'll be hugely surprised in IX when the good guys win. It'll be amazing! "Nobody could have seen THAT coming."
     
  18. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Completely OT, but this post reminds me of one of my favorite Childish Gambino lines: "Don't be mad because I'm doing me better than you're doing you." ;)
     
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  19. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Oh I believe that the good guys would win. I just don't believe it'll be as great as you make it out to be.
     
  20. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    No, no one could see that 20 people in the Falcon versus an Empire of millions of Stormtroopers would win because unless they come up with the Deus Ex Machina of all time or Rey miraculously turns into Lawrence of Arabia and brings her 20 fighters out of the space equivalent of the Nefud desert to find Anthony Quinn and his fighters to join them, there's no way to win. They've already said that no one has come to Leia's call. There's 20 beings in a ship, give or take some porgs, and Leia will be dead by 9, unless they recast. There's no fleet. Kylo is the Emperor and he's still got all his ships except one and a base that he allegedly didn't want or whatever nonsense they want to sell us to make us try and believe that Kylo will be good from now on.

    Contrast the end of Empire. Luke's got a new hand, he and Leia and the droids are reunited, Lando and Chewie are off to get Han, and we pull back to see the Rebellion fleet and it's still pretty large. We've got a mission to start ROTJ and a way forward. With TLJ, we've got people on one ship who, if they were thinking at all should find something else to do, with a leader who'll die, one who they spent the whole movie telling us was too hotheaded something something, Finn who they diverted into a B plot, a Jedi who trained for ten minutes, and the only child of the previous heroes is the Emperor. So yay?

    I'm with @Shadao above on this one. They'll win...until they don't and in ten years time, they'll bring back Ridley, Boyega and Isaac to have their characters shredded so we can have Rebels v. Empire Round 3.
     
  21. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014
    :rolleyes:

    So edgy.
     
  22. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 18, 2017
    That I would be totally onboard with, though. A "TLJ" for the new characters (in the roles of the OT characters now) would totally work for me. That`s why them predictably winning in ep 9 holds no entertainment value for me.

    The current Marvel characters, neither old nor new, don`t have anyone on the hero side I would cheer to see getting curb-stomped so I`d have to give the nod to the MCU.

    In terms of what Star Wars could learn for Marvel: they are different franchises which should use different approaches to storybuilding. However, what any major franchise should IMO leanr from current Marvel is to have a strong creative head overseeing it. Not just a producer, a creative. At least give Filoni a test drive, LFL.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  23. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    What's edgy about it? Disney's building a whole Star Wars Land based on Resistance vs. First Order. They'll just update the land and rebrand everything in ten years when they get around to making ep 10.

    Why is anyone who finds the ST not to their liking called "edgy" anyway?
     
  24. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014
    It's okay to not like the ST. Fair enough. It's the constant need to express that opinion, even in threads where it's not the subject at hand. IOver, and over, and over again. It's like there is a void in some folks that needs filling.

    Discussion has degenerated into snark and unfulfilled entitlement.
     
  25. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    If we had a moment like this in the movie
    Star By Star from the EU.

    Obviously change the references, but show Leia making a speech like this, show more people across the galaxy rising up and I can realistically believe that the galaxy will rise up and beat the FO. We pretty much know that the good guys are going to win, but honestly? I don't care at the moment and I don't get the feeling that this peace will last all that long.
     
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