Saga Did TFA make the OT pointless?

You hit the nail on the head yes. I concur. It does just that. I have even more respect for Episodes 1 to 6, which I can watch again and feel thrilled every single time. I think the new movies also feel somewhat pointless. The problem is them making the previous instalments meaningless. But I cannot take them seriously since they not only are not what Lucas wanted to tell (thus they aren't really his story and the continuation from ROTJ), but they don't have any story or meaning to them. Giving them very little emotional resonance other than watching an action movie or two after finishing off the saga. It is supremely ironic that had they actually told a story that continued, and done what Lucas intended, they not only would have done the morally right thing and told an actual story that made sense (and didn't render the past pointless), but they probably would have made far far far more financial gain also. Penny wise, pound foolish.

If I am not mistaken, I believe he was at a point in his life where he wasn't sure he had the energy to do it all. But I wouldn't say Lucas can be blamed at all for the actions of the new writers etc. Lucas sold it and on the basis that they would take his scripts. If I am not mistaken Mark Hamil was under the impression that Lucas' story was going to be produced. I don't think anyone would have thought that they would first throw out his scripts/treatments and then proceed to not have any plan, but hash out this story that doesn't particularly respect the storyline of what happened in the past, or what was to happen. He was deceived by a lie. We all were. GL has made it very clear the direction he wanted to go and what they wanted to do was vastly different and it looks like they essentially unceremoniously booted him out from a consultant role that was meant to happen. And now they have paid the price.

Absolutely I concur with your second point about where the story could have gone. I just wanted to see the actual story that was meant to be, but of all the almost infinite permutations of the future from ROTJ, they chose perhaps the most messy and one of the most uninspired ones. It is certainly not clear. And I do feel TFA lacks the feel of CONTINUING a story, versus just telling its own story completely.

 

Well let's be honest the story that was MEANT TO BE died with ROTJ. The next few movies were supposed to deal with Luke going on a journey and discovering his sister as they take on the Emperor. But ROTJ said screw all that... made Leia into his sister and killed the Emperor.

Another huge obstacle of course is that they waited too long and the big 3 had all gotten too old. I hate to even suggest it but it almost doesn't make sense to continue their story this long after the fact.

 

Exactly. They didn't think it through at all. Imagine if the ST really was that with new designs and a proper story and characters. Then they could sell all those toys for that era, the OT and the PT. The saga would have it's own feel then the retro movies like R1 and Solo could trade off the OT.

Instead they have tons of toys that all look the same that just diminish. I look around and see them still pushing all that unsold TFA merch. Yes they sold a ton but another ton didn't sell.

I look at it this way. R1 is great and essentially Episode 3.5. Solo is a nice light adventure and if they end up doing a good Obi-Wan project of some kind with EM then that is great.

Anything actually set during Lucas' movies that is an addition to them can live in that alive universe while the dead end ST universe is just apocryphal canon.

There was no way he was going to spend a decade and go well into his 70's to make movies that would cost over a billion dollars to make and market. It would just make no sense.

At best he thought about doing that for VII then selling with everything set-up and they would be forced to follow his stories pretty much as he wanted them. Now I wish he had done that but he decided he didn't want that hassle and then he might get sucked in and decide to do them all himself.

What he really wanted to do was that lived action TV series. As he said years ago the problems with movies is that there isn't enough content. If he could have got the TV going to his high standards then maybe he would have mixed movies in and have lots of revenue coming in from those that he could leverage to make movies not so perilous. Lucas does not and never has assumed success. He's not Disney with Solo where he thinks everything is going to be a mega-massive hit.

The ST story was really put together by him it seems more as an exercise to get it out of his system and say he had one as well as something to show to Disney.

Lucas is a great storyteller and he hoped that Disney would actually want to tell the sequel story. They didn't. They just wanted remakes and retro movies.

 

I am going on the basis of what Lucas has said recently and by numerous Mark Hamil interviews over the decades since ROTJ was released. The plan for a sequel trilogy. I also think continuing immediately probably would have been easier. But they could still tell a story with some backstory and explanations, (like TPM and ANH do), but TFA didn't do that. That's where the problem lies. I refer to the story that was meant to be told as per Hamil and Lucas' comments since it was announced there would be sequels. The point was he still wrote a continuation beyond ROTJ and handed this over to them. But they elected not to do it, which seems a bit crazy, when they don't seem to map out an alternative.

The problem is ROTJ ends on such a high, and as a saga Episodes 1 to 6 work as one story, that to continue it beyond that, you need to tie everything together. But that's not what they did. I have a feeling that whatever the "Whills" outlook and possible seeding of Darth Plageuis into the saga was a sign of the final chapters to be told. As Lucas put it, because then the story would have been told and that would be it. But instead they opted to just do "add on" films without any connectivity it would appear. You can still continue the story by actually continuing it. But you can't just ignore the time gap, not explain anything and then not even tell a story. Which is what they seemingly are doing.

That's just it! I had imagined the ST was going to essentially be like a galaxy trying to redo the PT era, but learn from the mistakes. Or else the sequels would tell the story about how a fractured galaxy is reunited (e.g. the Empire and legitimate government has partially collapsed and the galaxy splintered. Tell us the story of the reformation of a unified Republic), and the reestablishment of the new and improved Jedi Order by Luke Skywalker, heir to the legacy of the Jedi and trained by Yoda and Obi Wan. Have Force ghosts appear.

They could literally have had legacy characters, had a massive diverse cast of diverse Jedi Knights, a fledgling Jedi Order showcasing the galaxy and its worlds. They could have showed us new vehicles. Sold as many toys as they wanted for that. They could have had world building. Above all they could have had an actual STORY. The whole point was CONTINUE and conclude the saga which is what it seemed Lucas wanted to do. Instead they opted to rehash ideas in films that don't really continue, much less explain what just happened to the galaxy before we see it. World building is limited, and vehicles all the same.

I actually feel R1 did the job far far better. It told a story. It fit into the saga's events. It showed us old vehicles. It showed us new vehicles! But R1 was set in that era and makes sense. The ST is meant to be decades after the OT. Technology and the galaxy has moved forward. Yet we don't see anything. Look at the PT and what we have. So much more. Look at the OT, so much more. The ST is just X-wings and Tie fighters again and again and again. But without a story to actually support them.

I loved R1 because indeed it was episode 3.5. Or perhaps 3.8 because it's closer to ANH. In fact I would love to see Rise of Darth Vader as a kinda Episode 3.1 if that makes sense. And Labrynth of Evil as an Episode 2.8.

The ST sadly doesn't really make much sense when taken in the context of being a supposed continuation. They don't seem to get that basic concept. It isn't meant to be an action movie in TFA. It's meant to be Episode 7. Not Episode 4 (Version 2) with bonus features.

I would have preferred Shadow of the Force as Episode 7 with the emergence publicly of Darth Plageuis who still had to be defeated and the Jedi discovering the secrets of the Force and perhaps immortality. TFA does in a way render the entire saga pointless, not just the OT, because character progression, learning the Force, having a political backdrop to give meaning to events, explaining the backstory and motivations of characters, making it hard to take over the galaxy and pull off incredible flying, wielding a lightsaber, all of this becomes meaningless in TFA. Not to mention the lack of any flow to the story from ROTJ.

 

Sure R1 is 3.9. I'd take a group of 3 point movies with Obi-Wan, Vader and others.

If they want to make movies outside that era that people really care about at some point great but the current group has no interest in that from what I see.

 

Yes I think R1 is 3.9. Obi Wan films could be 0.1, 0.5 and 0.75 perhaps. Or Obi Wan could be included in a film version of Labrynth of Evil which would be a Episode 2.8.

Yes I think from TFA, it seems a great shame and waste. To think what could have been. They had a storyline left by Lucas, so I find it somewhat bizarre that they opted to not tell that story that everyone was interested in. Instead they came up with this which isn't even preplanned and mapped out. The current writing team don't appear to want to continue the story and make the PT/OT even more meaningful. And form one saga. They seem as intent as possible to do the opposite. This was meant to be the Skywalker saga, not a showing of a small local conflict in an unexplained galaxy with random characters which frankly don't relate to the OT/PT and don't really feel relatable either.

 

He wouldn't have had to take such a hands on approach. He could have just written the basic outline of the story and entrusted the production of the films to someone else... like he did with Kathleen Kennedy.

 

I don't see how. Lucasfilm as a very small independent company with Lucas as the sole owner doesn't have that kind of cash flow.

He couldn't be that hands off because if it goes wrong then he's screwed and it's his fault for not paying attention.

As he said he thought about doing VII for May 2015 then handing off ( I wish that had happened because then there be at least one more great saga movie) but sometime in 2012 I guess he had to decide whether to do that or sell.

 

I totally agree with you guys on this page the ST is just X wings and Tie fighters with zero story.

There is no depth and the closer you look at these movies the more they fall apart.

Rogue One was a nice surprise.

The Force Awakens The Last Jedi and Solo are not part of the Star Wars saga as far as I am concerned and I can think of 3 movies in another franchise of a similar standard.

 

You wanted nothing be undone by the ST, yet you wanted Darth Plagueis, despite the fact that one of the main plot points of the Saga is Anakin destroying the Sith?

 

Did attack of the clones make the victory in tpm pointless? Did revenge of the sith make attack of the clones and the entire clone wars pointless? Did empire strikes back make ANH and its victory pointless?

 

Yes and yes from an in-universe perspective. From a story-telling perspective, no. We, the viewers, understood all along that the heroes were just rats running around in Palpatine's maze and that they were fighting a phantom menace while the real menace cackled in plain view. The real protagonist was Palpatine and each movie represented a progression in his master plan.

(And even with that, the prequels did suffer a hit in popularity as a result - the putative good guys having so little real agency throughout do make the movies less aspirational. I was always watching them for Palpatine. But he gets so little screen time.)

If you look at it only in military terms, a partial yes (if Lucas knew there were going to be sequels, he'd likely have saved the Death Star for the final movie.) If you look at it in terms of character and story progression, no. The heroes didn't unlearn lessons or revert character growth from the previous movie. And the new struggles were of a very different nature from the first movie. ESB wasn't about destroying another big weapon, it was about meeting your imagined hero and conquering your own inner fears and anger.

And the OT was at heart a coming of age story, not a war documentary. So the important progression was maintained.

That's the difference between AotC/ROTS/ESB and TFA/TLJ. The Lucas movies didn't throw away the progress and character arcs from the prior movies just to rehash the exact same conflict.

 

One of the reasons the ST strikes so many people as undermining the OT is because of the way the new conflict seems to arise simply by writers' fiat. If things had unfolded in a more logical and progressive way, I don't think as many people would have a problem. People react negatively because the erasure of the old victories doesn't feel earned. The OT heroes went through a whole three movies' worth of toil and effort to defeat the Empire, and then it's all erased instantly with nothing but a handwave and an apathetic shrug of the shoulders. The ST status quo is transparently all about recreating a commercial aspect of the OT, and has little if anything to do with naturally extending the story of ROTJ. Any narrative justifications for the status quo have been arrived at backwards from that original cynical starting point. That rubs people the wrong way.

 

The sequel trilogy to me represents among other things the notion that a happy ending is never eternal. I grew up with the ROTJ as the official ending of the saga and even the EU novels and comics that took place afterwards were hard to accept because the ending of ROTJ felt so satisfying and beautiful. The more I contemplate it though, the more I begin to realize and accept that with the advent of the PT and the SW story becoming more and more grounded in the alternate reality of its own fictional universe and the more the archetypical characters are fleshed out to the point that they resemble characters instead of icons the more it seems inevitable that return of the Jedi would not simply end all conflict in the galaxy.

I think we as first and second generation fans tend to glorify the original movies to the point of legend and it’s difficult for us to remember the flaws of our heroes. Luke didn’t just have a pure heart and no conflict. Even by the end of Jedi he is susspectable to anger and would have killed the Emperor in anger had Vader not stopped him. This reckless young man who broke all the rules was left with the monementous task of restarting the Jedi from scratch with no living guidance. Then you have his newphew who would be extremely strong in the Force and entitled and spoiled and you can see the issues in the sequel trilogy may be more organic than it seems at first.

Sure you kinda need the novels to fill in a lot of blanks about the intervening years but Star Wars has always been this way. Every single Star Wars movie is shockingly short on details. ANH doesn’t even name the planet Tatooine! A lot of what we remember is from other material. Star Wars was always very much like a documentary or like the Bible where we are given bits and pieces and never every little detail. Ever since I saw empire strikes back and it didn’t begin with the rebels evacuating Yavin but jumping years ahead where the rebels had a whole new base already and Han had an encounter with a “bounty hunter on ord mantel” I realized the movies were only a small fraction of a greater story and that made it feel ever more epic. Even the time jump from episode 1 to 2 is a bit jarring. So much changed in between.

If you look at the saga as it is now 1-8 you can see that it all flows in the same way.

 

But would Luke really have killed the Emperor? He threw his light saber down. That showed his growth. The inversion of this growth in TLJ is what bothered me so much. Not that Luke had setbacks. How he dealt with those setbacks. And I thought the Yoda lesson was something he had already learned. I understand the argument against, but this is Luke we are talking about.

 

But Luke didn’t kill Kylo. He just had that moment of anger but it passed.

 

No. Because the story progresses naturally. TPM focuses on one planet and the purpose is demonstrated that political changes happen. AOTC shows significant galactic machinations going on. ROTS is the result of AOTC and the Clone Wars the begin. It follows and continues the story. Rogue One also continue from there (set many years later). And ties neatly into ANH. ESB doesn't negate ANH. The Empire is galactic. They lost their super weapon, but hunt the Rebels down who are now in hiding. The Rebels flee. The Empire was still in control.

Yes it is a shame. It does render the story a little mute as the title of the thread suggests. I agree, Rogue One was superb and actually tells a story and links up nicely with the previous and next film chronologically. It continues and sets up neatly. I see your point about TFA and TLJ, and yes I don't feel they blend in and continue the story as well as Rogue One, which ironically was an anthology film.

For me ROTJ was a beautiful ending. You mistake what I said. I am saying, in order to continue the story beyond ROTJ and maintain the concept of ONE SAGA, then you can't have random new villains. The Darth Plageuis angle seeded in at ROTS, would allow a storyline that maintains the concept of ridding the galaxy of the dark siders. Plageuis could have survived. We know Palpatine is overconfident in his old age in ROTJ. Hypothesising (and it could have been shown or told as such) that he killed his Master using Lightning, instead of a lightsaber. Or he thought he killed him. The Sith are about the Rule of Two. But if one is defeated, they are no longer Sith. Usually they are killed I am guessing. In this case, the Master could have hidden.

It is just a suggested story that would make more sense than random villain who is immensely powerful in the dark side, without any explanation whatsoever. The whole point is, that TFA/TLJ render the previous films meaningless if the struggles of both sides (the good and bad guys) are non existent. Palpatine's rise to power seems like overkill and the Rebels struggle to defeat the Empire again pointless and way too complicated.

Even if you went with a story where Windu survived ROTS, and maybe deems the Republic ineffective government and through paranoia, or whatever, sets up a Force user League of Shadows entity. Anything that would actually explain that there is trouble or those using the Force threatening the galaxy. Some story that actually connects and bridges all the films. Otherwise, continuing beyond the happy ending of ROTJ seems just like you're stretching out the story for no reason. Again, from Mark Hamil's words and Lucas' statements, it appears that there was indeed a story, perhaps focusing on the Whills and Luke's new Jedi Order that CONTINUED the story and finished it off. I doubt that Lucas would just make further episodes in the saga that weren't related to the Skywalker saga, and didn't have any plot.

And I never said "nothing be undone by the ST," I said a story that should logically flow and make sense. Much like all the other films do. And as a few others on here opined, as does Rogue One, which fits into the storyline. The point is TFA is meant to be Episode SEVEN. Not Episode 1. Episode SEVEN. Thus it is by default meant to continue the story. And this meant to be one saga. Not a side story of unrelated events after the victory. It's a bit like a Harry Potter film which magically has some random super villain after the last movie, with zero explanation of who this person is, zero explanation of the characters etc. You can't just stick "Star Wars Episode ..." onto a film and say this is what happened after. It has to make some sense.

You put it brilliantly. This the entire point. It undermines the OT (and indeed the PT) to a great extent, because no logic, no backstory, and no natural progression is shown or explained, or hinted at. This is the crux of the problem. Furthermore, because this is Episode 7 (and 8 and 9), by default they are meant to continue the story. This isn't Episode 1. I agree on the commercial aspect rather than the narrative/story aspect of the ST, that you mention. Sadly what could have been a great story that links and bridges this together does not appear to have come to pass.

 

Yet you chose the option which would be a contradiction. There are other options to make the villain connected without it being Plagueis.

 

The villain is connected though...Kylo Ren. He is the negative embodiment of the legacy of Darth Vader.

Snoke is the new random villain that is as much a Star Wars tradition as the gold letters in the opening crawl.

Sidious comes out of nowhere, Maul comes out of nowhere, Dooku, Grievous, Tarkin, Piett, etc

Darth Vader is the only villain who gets an arc before becoming who he is and that’s only when watched 1-6. Watching the original trilogy, Boba comes out of nowhere too.

 

But we know who Maul, Dooku, Grievous, Tarkin, Piett, and Boba Fett are. We get a solid handle on all their characters commensurate with their individual importance to the story. We don't really need to know anything more about any of them than what the films tell us. It isn't that important.

Snoke, on the other hand, is the mastermind who managed to unravel the happy ending achieved after the end of six films by destroying the Republic, resurrecting the Empire, corrupting the last Skywalker scion, outplaying Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, and plunging the galaxy into an unprecedented era of darkness. Yet we know nothing about his motivations, how he achieved any of this, or really what even makes him unique as a character. Based on his importance to the story and the pivotal role he plays in utterly redefining the fundamental arc of the entire Star Wars saga, we should know all these things. And the answers should be good.

 

Firstly, I would dispute that it's unprecedented darkness. The galaxy has been at war for, what, a week?

I definitely can understand why it seems unearned going from ROTJ to TFA, but just like I don't think Anakin's arc can be fully appriciated without TCW, I'm sure it'll be filled in to flesh out the story.

 

So the conflict in the ST is minor and insignificant, and that's why we don't need to know anything about Snoke? Is that the counter you're going with?

TCW isn't remotely necessary to understand Anakin's arc. TCW doesn't tell us anything about Anakin that we don't already know in some form from the films.

 

No, not at all. I'm just correcting you that you're exaggerated the conflicts extent to support your argument is all.

I disagree. I think, in the PT, Anakin's fall is a bit too abrupt, his relationship with Padme is far too thin and he isn't particularly likeable as a character. It works technically, like Snoke, but it needs more context and explanation - I think TCW provides that for the audience.

 

From the Saga episodes alone, we know where Anakin comes from, how his relationships to the other major characters were formed and what motivates him. The details and execution of his actual turn I guess we can discuss until the shaaks come home, but the data is there. We have loads of context.

He is the central protagonist of that story though, not the evil mastermind in charge of an antagonistic force, so this is really apples and oranges.

 

That really isn't the point being made though. It's that the ST is saying that the actual struggle that was went through to over come was pointless because everything is back to where it was. Complete regression. Republic gone, Empire back, Rebels back, Han is a smuggler again, Leia is on the run from Empire again (and not even a Jedi), they are split and their son has become Darth Vader, the Jedi are gone again and worst of all Luke is a complete and total failure on all levels because for some unknown reason he completely forgot everything he learned and became an utterly different person than the one who we saw at the end of ROTJ.

It's one thing for the "happy ending" to not be eternal but the ST's story takes away that happy ending and has everything undone. It's one thing to have an ending then move forward from that to new challenges (even if they come from old threats) but this is thematically a complete unraveling and undoing if you that this story seriously.

Lucas' story which they drew many of the plot elements from was different. So he had Luke in exile but as a Jedi not as a coward and quitter. He has a purpose to be on the island. He did train new Jedi. It doesn't throw over the previous trilogy as being pointless.

Totally disagree on that. We glorify those flaws which they overcame. That was the point. When comparing Anakin and Luke to Rey for example Rey has to overcome next to nothing. She's a poorly conceived and written character as is Ren and the entire trilogy.

This didn't happen. It was Luke who stopped himself killing Vader in anger even with Sidious pressing him to do so.

That's the problem. Unlike with Anakin and Luke the story of Ren is not organic at all. It's just stated with no real support. He's simply evil and that is that.

Finer details is what the other media should be used for. Episodes I-VI gave the major points that were the most necessary in terms of story, character and context. This is the exact sort of thing that the ST has skipped out on and since they can't keep it straight between themselves the backstories and any flow between characters is ruptured.

That was the point though. I to II is 10 years, II to III is 3 years, III to IV is 19 years, IV to V is 3 years, V to VI is 1 year. Time between movies allows the story to naturally grow and change and we get to see the major important parts. It grows organically, VII and VIII are one movie taking place at the same time so the complete change in circumstances and characters in literally the minutes between movies makes no sense.

VII to VIII is completely jarring because so much has changed when there is no possible time for it to happen. Even six months between the movies would have helped though it still wouldn't explain how the First Order's backstory completely changed from a covert organization that was on the fringes of the galaxy making their first major strike with SKB to TLJ where the backstory is that they essentially have been the Empire and terrorizing the galaxy for many years. In TFA Jedi Master Luke Skywalker can bide his time because the First Order is years away from making their play in the galaxy while in TLJ the cowardly quitter Luke is in hiding because he doesn't want to face the oppressive First Order and Kylo Ren.