Senate Latin America/Caribbean Politics thread

Hello, JCC.

"Wow. A Latin America politics thread? What for?"

First and foremost: I'm brazilian. And I am, right now, a deeply, deeply sad brazilian. I don't know if you guys been following what's happening down here, but the country is divided right now. I don't know if there are other brazilian regulars here at JCC, but I wanted to discuss this topic with smart international people plus Americans who are interested in international topics who might be interested in discussing what's happening here and, more broadly, Latin America.

Regarding Brazil, our political elections have come to it's second and final phase. The candidates are: Jair Bolsonaro, a racist, sexist and homophobic far right military guy who once said that dictatorship's major mistake was "to torture but not to kill" and Fernando Haddad, former mayor of São Paulo whose party is being destroyed because of corruption complaints.

This is Jair Bolsonaro:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/24/world/americas/brazil-election-jair-bolsonaro.html

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dangerous-populist-vows-to-make-brazil-safe-again-sgmmp6spg

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/08/11/the-danger-posed-by-jair-bolsonaro

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...brazil-presidential-candidate-trump-parallels

http://www.lefigaro.fr/internationa...-bresil-en-proie-alatentation-autoritaire.php

http://br.rfi.fr/brasil/20180409-le...naro-o-trump-tropical-homofobico-e-machista-0

https://elpais.com/internacional/2018/09/27/actualidad/1538081751_076318.html



This guy is about to become Brazil's next president. The problem is that Haddad is facing a striking 41% rejection rate because his party, PT (Worker's Party) and Lula, former brazilian president and PT's leader, currently under arrest for corruption, are entangled in a major political operation called Operation Car Wash. I think this video can help you guys understand it better:




So, are you guys up to it? What do you think? Lets discuss! Everyone is welcome.

@Pensivia

 

I've been following since the corruption scandal first erupted and how, more or less, it was used to target the workers party.

 

If you want to discuss this with Americans as well as smart people, you definitely are going to have to resort to a comedy show to explain it to us.

 

I think we have some Brazilian users here. I recall seeing some IPs from there doing new user approvals.

 

C'mon, you know that was not what I meant.

 

@J-Rod, surely you're appalled by Bolsonaro?

 

Hate to do this to you ES but...
Americentrism +1

 

Not at all; we don't have too many hard right people here to gauge the views of, so I'm asking one of the ones we know.

 

I just think the drama for Brazil is such that we shouldn't hijack it right away to settle old scores.
What I'm saying is, this sucks.

 

It was telling when, during the corruption scandal and the vote to oust Rouseff, one man stood on the legislature floor and before he cast his vote, he praised the military officer who tortured Rouseff. That man was Bolsonaro.

 

I'm not settling any scores. Bolsonaro isn't a Brasilian Trump; he's far worse. I'm ensuring I read the situation correctly.

 

I really don't mean to sound flippant , but I can't help thinking :

"It's Chinataown , Jake."
"It's Latin America , Jake ."

 

Well folks, we're one step closer to appleseed's nightmare.

 

appleseed's nightmare is everything being alright.

 

How long before Trump calls this guy his new friend and a "great, strong leader"?

 

This piece is a few days old, but it's worth considering the rays of hope inherent in the Brazilian system. We also cannot forget that the staple diet of broadleft parties - corruption and bribery - sapped faith in the PT's ability to offer an alternative.

Brazil’s elections
Containing Jair Bolsonaro
A president with authoritarian instincts must be challenged by a united democratic opposition



Print edition | Leaders
Oct 27th 2018

Brazilians face an awful choice. One candidate in the presidential run-off on October 28th is Jair Bolsonaro, a seven-term congressman who venerates dictators and guns, goads police to kill suspected criminals, threatens to banish opponents and belittles women, blacks and gays. His rival is Fernando Haddad, the nominee of the leftist Workers’ Party(pt). Its 13 years in power, from 2003 to 2016, ended in a self-inflicted economic depression and revelations that the party encouraged bribery on an unprecedented scale, in part to prolong its hold on power.

Dilma Rousseff, a pt president, was impeached in 2016 for hiding the true size of the budget deficit. Crime continued to rise after she left office. Nearly 64,000 people were murdered in Brazil last year, a record number. Understandably, Brazilians are enraged. They now look poised to elect Mr Bolsonaro, a populist with authoritarian instincts, as their president.

That such a man will probably lead Latin America’s largest country is a tragedy. If it happens, it will be because Brazil’s political class has failed the country’s people. Some of the corruption was orchestrated by the pt, but almost all parties took part in it. Today’s crime and economic stagnation are a consequence of a dangerously indebted state that is at once too big and too feeble to provide adequate policing, education and other public services. Nearly all politicians share the blame for that.

Mr Bolsonaro’s probable election will pose a new challenge: ensuring that a president with autocratic impulses does not subvert Brazil’s democracy. It is critical that politicians of all ideologies rise to the occasion. But they cannot forget about the old problems. If Mr Bolsonaro puts forward good ideas for fixing the economy and controlling corruption, he should get help.

Brazil is a relatively young democracy; dictatorial rule ended in 1985. But it is not a weak one. Although Brazilians view congress as a corruption-ridden collection of rent-a-parties, it is not a rubber stamp. It has impeached two presidents in the democratic era and can provide a vital check on Mr Bolsonaro. The judiciary has shown its independence over the past four years through the Lava Jato (Car Wash) investigations. These have implicated scores of politicians and led to the jailing of the pt's leader, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, a former president. The press is already challenging Mr Bolsonaro, which is why, like Donald Trump, he accuses it of spreading fake news.

Such institutions can thwart some of Mr Bolsonaro’s worst plans. He wants the police to have “carte blanche” to kill. But the main police forces are under the authority of the 27 states. Their governors must reject his trigger-happy philosophy. Congress can stop him from carrying out his threat to stuff the supreme court with pliant judges. Mr Bolsonaro’s proposal to withdraw from the Paris climate agreement and his eagerness to promote development in the Amazon, where rates of deforestation appear to be rising, should alarm the world. Congress and activist groups can stand in his way.

Not all Mr Bolsonaro’s ideas are bad. He has shown more interest than the pt in solving Brazil’s main economic problems (see article). If he is serious about reforming the costly pension system, which threatens Brazil’s financial stability, and eliminating useless rules, congress should co-operate. (Though that is a big “if”.)

The worst effects of a Bolsonaro presidency may be hardest to contain. Already he has damaged Brazil’s democratic culture by praising the former dictatorship, choosing as his running-mate a retired general who has justified military coups under some circumstances, and insinuating that political opponents are enemies of the state. He probably does not intend to be a dictator. But his corrosive rhetoric may make Brazilians more receptive to autocracy in the future. To confront that, Brazil needs an opposition that defends democratic norms and an army determined to remain scrupulously apolitical.

In their despair, Brazilians are about to reject a discredited party in favour of a political adventurer with repellent ideas. That is unlikely to turn out well. Lawmakers, judges, journalists and civil servants will have to work hard to limit the damage.

 

Pleased to see a somewhat balanced article about this in USA/European media.

For weeks the vast majority I've seen have presented all of Bolsonaro's worst aspects while downplaying all the ridiculously corrupt and incompetent **** the petistas got up to.

I mean, in a time where rampant crime is a huge issue for many Brazilians and people are sick of corruption (corruption and embezzlement on a scale I'm not sure the average first-worlder can really comprehend), Haddad regularly visited Lula in prison for advice and then wondered why people didn't want to vote for him.

People here (in Europe at the moment) kept asking me essentially 'Oh so you're voting for the good guys not that horrible Brazilian Hitler right?' because they somehow believed PT were 'troubled but good' and this wasn't an Alien Vs Predator 'Whoever wins, we lose' situation on a scale which makes Trump v. Hillary look wonderful.

Between a Bolsonaro win and PT finding out they can in fact get away with anything, I'm not sure which is worse.

looks like we'll be waiting a bit longer for that Ordem e Progresso

 

Bolsonaro, in his victory speech, promised to defend and govern for all Brazilians.....who uphold and respect the law.

Slightly ominous.

[edit]

The Brazilian army decided to take to the streets and celebrate last night. The crowds cheered them on...

 

I haven't looked too deeply into him. He seems to admire dictatorships a little too much.

And given the media's inability to separate legal immigration from illegal immigration, I'm not sure if he is for strong borders or against immigration. (Contrary to popular reporting, the two are separate issues)

 

He favours immigrants being stripped of property, tortured and killed. Bolsonaro addressed them as "scum"

Trump is liberal compared to him.

 

^what heels said....

 

I don't think anyone is for illegal immigration. I think the point trying to be made is that when people flee violence or danger or extreme poverty in their country, they should be given a break, meaning they probably had no chance, or time or money, to go thru the normal process (imagine waiting in line for the process to be completed while your family is in danger of being killed or maybe dying from hunger) so they make it to the border, well then given the situation you can maybe come up with some sort of alternate process, maybe help them make their way into another country willing to take them if they don't qualify to enter. But mostly, it is evident they are being treated like ****, and you dont have to treat them like ****. That's all.

I dont believe in letting everyone in without going thru a process. But I also dont believe in meeting them at the border with guns pointed at women and children, ready to fire to try to "Make America White Again".

 

...or, I dunno, separating children indefinitely from their parents and locking them up like animals. Or calling a mass of refugees that, admittedly, probably should know better than try to storm the US border seeking asylum a "threat to national security".

It doesn't matter. Politics is a scummy global business. And when the mob chooses the worst scumbag from the lot to run things for awhile, you can count on a few (or many, so many) atrocities to occur in his/her term.