ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

I fully expect that it’ll be like the Jaws sequels or Godfather III in a few years. I don’t think there’s any way to fix all the problems and there’s no way to tie the Saga together unless they decide to redeem Kylo and give him a pass and I don’t see that going over well at all. Or maybe we’ll find out Rey really is a Skywalker and that’s how they’ll fix it. I don’t think the ghosts of William Goldman and Billy Wilder together could write them out of this mess.

 

Well thats where it becomes a challenge. presumably Abrams and Disney won't want to end this whole sequel trilogy on what could be considered abit of an all over the place mess that people will rip the hell out of it.

I imagine if they can salvage it, they will want to do that. if all the 9 movies could be watched as a package, id assume that would be the preference.

I dunno whether its doable... i just imagine thats what they would prefer

 

https://apple.news/AnyVdav4CQPiG-0Dr5rUssA




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To quote my favorite character from a different franchise, ‘Fascinating’! And Simon Pegg has been in both of these groundbreaking franchises.

http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/st...s-sequel-trilogy-miss-george-lucas-last-jedi/

 

Wrong? Is everyone who disagrees with you wrong? What I'd say is that the critics had a different perspective bcs they're mostly not SW fans. They simply sat there & evaluated the movie on its merits, as they did for 100 other movies in that year. Without the baggage of obsessive nostalgia or a deep rooted emotional connection to the lore of this series or to characters such as Luke. That was one of the stand-out patterns. That most non-SW fans seemed to like the movie, while hardcore fans were more evenly split. There's nothing to say which camp is "right" or which group the movie should be more eager to please.

Again with the binary right & wrong silliness. They weren't wrong. Some movies don't win over a wide audience on first viewing. Then they get re-evaluated later. Same thing happened with movies like Apocalypse Now, The Shining & even TESB. Doesn't mean the people who didn't like them at first were wrong. Besides, movies aren't like a science puzzle that has an objective answer. No one's "wrong" for liking or disliking anything.

I didn't mention TESB earlier. What I said was that every SW saga movie since the OT has been disliked & outright hated by a sizeable chunk of the fandom. TLJ was never going to be any different, & I'm sure Ep IX won't be either.

It's far-fetched to say that "subversion" was the reason for the positive reviews of not 1, not 2, or 10 or 20 but nearly 400 professional critics. It's also quite presumptuous to speak to someone else's reasons for liking something. Really it's a way of dismissing all of the goodwill for a movie you don't like, by saying it's based on a cheap trick & a superficial effect. Thereby disregarding the positive appraisal of it & yet again, trying to leave your own negative take as the only "right" & legitimate opinion. Personally, I'd stick to expressing your own opinion & giving all of the analysis of the opinions of others a rest.

You need to pay attention. She didn't have to leave the room. As Hux said, she got away in Snoke's personal escape craft. Since she was already in Snoke's throne room & chambers then clearly that's how she got away. It makes perfect sense for the likes of Snoke to have a quick means of escape at the ready. It only makes sense for his escape ship to be close to where he resides in the ship. It all tracks.

Well this was a bad example of your argument since your information on this plot element was incorrect. Besides which, the scene you're suggesting be inserted into the film sounds completely boring & redundant. The movie doesn't need to stop to have a sequence of "Rey's daring escape from the Star Destroyer". Kylo is knocked unconscious & later awakes. This in the language of cinema indicates that some time has passed. Rey has escaped during that time. Earlier she discusses her rendezvous plan with Chewie. In the scene with Hux & Kylo it's revealed that she took off from Snoke's "boudoir" in Snoke's escape shuttle. That's perfect. It's all that's needed when you want a movie to have momentum & not get bogged down with minutiae.

 

Well I don't hate the PT or the ST but both of them have flaws, some considerable ones at times.
But the flaws are sometimes different.
One similar problem I have noticed is the tendency to use EU as a crutch for the films.
That important plot points are relegated to the books because the films don't deal with them.
I have lost count how many times I have been told to read this book or watch the TCW in order to understand some plot point in the PT films.
And I have seen the same with the ST.
I don't accept this excuse for either series.

But to answer why I feel that the PT at times do not "feel" like the OT.
1) Show, don't tell. The OT, esp ANH did a very good job of showing and not telling. Ex the opening with the small rebel ship vs big empire ship. Showing the might of the Empire.
The PT instead have telling and not showing. Anakin is said to be super strong with the Force but we are not shown him doing all that much beyond other Force users. We are told about people dying on Naboo but we don't see it.
2) The talking, there is clunky dialogue on both OT and PT but to me, the PT has more of it and more talking overall. So the PT feels more talky and more wordy than the OT.
3) Motivation, the empire's motivation in ANH is very clear, retrieve the stolen plans to the DS.
What is the TF's motivation in TPM? They are against some new tax but then they invade Naboo and want some treaty signed to give them control over it. How does control over Naboo get rid of this tax?
What does the seps want in AotC? Dooku mentions demands but what those are is never said.
4) Good vs Evil. The OT had a very clear good vs evil story, good guys and bad guys. Yes one bad guy turned back to a good guy at the end.
The PT is made to be more shades of gray. The good guys are not that good and the bad guys are not that bad.

Also, did TPM show the republic as very "happy"?
Not really. The senate is shown to be corrupt and totally ineffective. A planet is invaded and people killed and the senate is unable to do anything. The Jedi act like this is just a minor bother and don't seem very interested in helping.
So to me, I didn't really see the "Golden days" of the republic but a republic that has already become crippled with corruption and apathy.

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Well I saw good points in the PT back in the day. Just that there were also a fair amount of bad as well.
There was enough good so I still liked the films but enough bad to keep the films from being really good or great.
TLJ has much more problems than TLJ both in that the plot really does not work and also that some of the things set up in TFA, like characters etc, are just tossed aside. So the films don't mesh together.

In closing, one thing that was different to me between the PT and ST is the characters. I liked and became invested in the characters in TFA. They were not super deep or very complex but I was engaged.
That did not happen as much with the PT. I found the characters rather dull and not very engaging.
This made it hard for me to care about what happened.
Sadly TLJ worked far less good when it came to the characters and some characters from TFA became worse.

The PT does have an advantage in having an overall plan, even it it got changed around a bit.
The ST is either lacking in an overall plan or they had one for TFA but then that was tossed out in TLJ.
Interestingly, to me, the OT is the one who feels the most consistent of the three and that is the one where they had the least amount of assurances and the least ability to plan ahead.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I agree with what @Darth Downunder said about Rey’s escape from the throne room, actually. That’s really a non-issue for me.
As for her decision to leave Kylo where he was without killing him, I feel that it’s just perfectly consistent with her Jedi-esque compassion. You just don’t kill a defenseless enemy - especially when he’s unconscious! That would be an extremely dark act.
Still, I would’ve preferred to actually see our lead protagonist go through that process, because it IS a character defining moment.

 

And it being a "dark act" is exactly WHY I wanted it to happen. This movie wants to claim that it's being "bold and different" well actually BE bold and different. Also Rey taking the more pragmatic (or ruthless if you prefer) option would fit her background far more imo, especially since she isn't really a Jedi and has none of the training.

As for "compassion," how about compassion for Kylo's previous victims, and those that he will certainly kill going forward? Do they not matter?

 

I don't feel Rey needs to be a skywalker to impact the trilogy. I still feel she could be a kenobi and it would work just as well. Although if you wanted to completely disconnect her from being related to anyone then I think you could still pull it off, they just need to put extra thought into Kylo for the 9th movie and make it count. It may mean taking a quick turn for his character that either for good or bad changes something. But I still believe it's possible to do.

I am expecting some surprises in episode 9. Abrams has a task on his hands.

 

Rey killing Kylo Ren as he lay there unconscious is a ridiculous idea. Must be a joke suggestion.

 

I can definitely agree with your first paragraph and it would’ve been an interesting development, to say the least.

As for your second point, that is a conundrum. Especially if one believes, as the Jedi do, in unconditional love for everything that lives - including one’s enemies. Do the ends justify the means? That is the question.
A reasonable alternative would be for Rey to tie him up and bring him along as a prisoner - although he’d still be able to cause trouble by using the Force when he wakes up, of course...

 

Why? She’s not a Jedi with a code - she’s in a war with an enemy at her feet. Don’t want to kill him? Well, great - drag him back to the Resistance at least, after all her “he’ll turn” nonsense, she just leaves. It’s worse than the planet cracking in TFA.

She’s been raised in hell, she has the guy who destroyed lives and worlds at her mercy and she thinks...well, who knows because we don’t see the scene.

 

Come on. She's not going to kill anyone while they're out cold, much less Luke's nephew. The one that he's already distraught about almost doing something similar to years earlier. Rey just a few scenes earlier reacted in horror to that scenario. Not to mention that Kylo is Leia's only son. Then there's the fact that Rey predicted he'd turn on Snoke & that's exactly what just happened. Now she's just going to murder him bcs he hasn't turned all the way to the good side after one encounter?

As for trying to capture Kylo, clearly she'd want to get out of there as soon as she can while she still can. Since at any second he could awaken or some FO thugs could enter Snoke's throne room to check on him. This is the first I've heard of any gripe about Rey escaping, or her not killing Kylo or throwing him over her shoulder after binding his hands with her shoelaces . We must've reached the bottom of the barrel of TLJ complaints with these. Anyone for some more Luke grievances?

 

The same joke like Luke trying to kill Ben while he is sleeping. When I saw it I thought as well that it must be a joke.

 

The core of what made star wars a phenomenon is the OT. yeah you can visit other eras and explore new stuff but if you "let the past die" then you do slowly start to alienate what made Star Wars what it is today and what gave birth too the 25,000 years worth of galactic history.

 

I have a giant issue with Rey not killing Kylo and escaping the Supremacy and it's a problem the movie itself sets up. The fact that Rey accuses Luke of making Kylo Ren and not doing anything about it placing the Galaxy in danger and then she does something which by her own perspective as presented is even worse she has the opportunity to end the threat of Kylo Ren exactly what she asked Luke to do and chastised him for not doing, instead she leaves with no scene expanding why she left forshadowing something she just leaves the ship.... doesn't capture him, doesn't do anything. The issue isn't that she leaves him the issue is that the movie doesn't expound as to why she does it after her entire plot has been to stop Kylo Ren and the first order and then maybe redeem him and after option B fails she has the perfect chance to do option A she doesn't. Rian should have written a scene explaining why it could have been as simple as Hux showing up and it would have made more sense then what we got as many things are in TLJ the execution is just poor. I have no problem with the Heroic choice I have a giant problem with the choice as presented on screen and I hope they address in in IX because that would make for some great drama with Rey.

 

I think she did not do it because she was lacking a mentor to show her the right way

 

I can't agree with you more, when I look at the ST the EU and the types of stories they could tell I think the best thing that they could have done with regards to Episode VII would have been to forget focusing on new characters and looked more to TPM for inspiration in terms of telling character stories instead of ANH. Episode VII should have been the OT 3 last hurrah one last mission to save the day a movie that will explain the state of the Galaxy after ROTJ where they are reunited they get their win we meet the characters that will carry on the story. We saw Obi - Wan as a Padawan in TPM the new characters should have been in similar roles. Episode VIII we jump 10 years or so like in AOTC and whatever lingering threats from the first movie have come back this time The OT 3 are present in the background and we let the new characters take up the fight. What we got is so much less satisfying and feels like they tried to just do a total reset on Star Wars. After seeing the ST I honestly wonder if they should have just packaged up the PT, ST, EU as one thing and just said check this out we are making our own Star Wars did a full on reboot or as you said just jump away from the OT all together and started the ST with Kylo Ren as Luke or Leia's grandson etc.

 

Nope, her goal was to go & appeal to Kylo bcs she foresaw that he'd turn against Snoke. Which is what happened. Killing him outside of self-defence would be completely out of character for her & carrying him as she escapes is laughable from a practical perspective.

It wasn't a joke, it was Kylo Ren's distorted recollection of what happened. The real version of events as told by Luke shows that he stopped himself well before any actual attempt to harm him.

 

It can be argued that she did have a Mentor in Kylo Ren that said kill the past and instead of moving forward and becoming something new he decided to stay all Emo meaning shouldn't she have killed the past....

Could you imagine seeing Rey standing over Kylo Ren and the force ghost of Sheev appears and tells her to do it and she doesn't because she feels the dark side and runs now that would have been something amazing.

 

???
When did she chastise Luke for not killing Ben in his sleep?

 

That's actually a good point. It took Palpatine's goading to get a messed-up already half-corrupted Anakin to kill Dooku. Yet people expect Rey of all people to murder Kylo while he's unconscious!