ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

That's your opinion of her characterization. The scavenger Rey that only cares about herself and worries about survival and has lived on her own should have no issue killing the person that she is their to stop or at least trying to stop him. Hux could have kept her from carrying him we could have a scene with her struggling about what to do unable to carry him or something which you know would have helped Rey's character since she is basically a window dressing in the film. The scene as presented with her just taking off and avoiding the debate about killing, capturing or you know doing something about Kylo Ren the guy that abused her invaded her mind and is hell bent on ruling the galaxy is laughable. TLJ needed a powerful scene with a Rey standing over an unconscious Kylo and the fact that we have a lot of scenes that could have been cut to give us something as powerful and a key character moment as that scene could have been is a giant miss on the part of LFL

 

She chastised Luke when she said Kylo Ren is your fault and saying that he did nothing then she leaves the island with Chewie. I wasn't talking about killing Kylo was talking about Luke going all hermit and letting the Galaxy Burn at the hands of Kylo

 

No i expect the filmakers to take advantage of a great character moment and show us why she wouldn't kill or stop Kylo Ren since that's why she went to find Luke. She wanted him come back and do something about Kylo.

 

What the...? You mean the girl who went out of her way to help BB-8, then Finn, then joined the Resistance, all at great risk to her survival. That girl who only cares about herself?

No she wanted something done about the FO. Specifically she wanted to turn Kylo against Snoke. She believed he would turn on Snoke, & he did.

 

I am not even going to bother trying to argue with the point is clearly going over your head hut I will explain it one last time. Also Before BB - 8 and Finn actually caring about her Rey was all about her own survival as was presented in TFA and the ancillary materials, people had repeatedly stabbed her in the back and she did not trust anyone, I know discount the ancillary materials but in any case after TFA I had bought into this whole thing now not so much. If you don't care about the ancillary stuff that's fine the BB - 8 and Finn stuff still stands as per Rey talking to Finn about coming back for her on Starkiller. Back to my point about Rey not killing Kylo.

I have no issue with Rey leaving Kylo alive, I have a giant issue with it happening off screen with how Rey's story has progressed from TFA to TLJ. The fact of the matter is that RJ didn't care enough about Rey as a character to write what could have been one of the most poignant scenes of the ST. He created these Rashamon style flashbacks with Luke standing over Kylo Ren and here we have the perfect chance to put his "apprentice" in the exact same situation standing over Kylo Ren with one of the guards blades out or Kylo's Saber we can see why she makes the choice she makes or keep it hidden have Hux or some Stormtroopers interrupt her. Maybe Rey says there's still good in you I feel it and Kylo stirs and she takes off planting the seed of redemption. Maybe she is about to kill him and someone stops her. There are so many possibilities there and that kind of scene can lead to great development in IX for both characters especially if you want to redeem Kylo. The truth of the matter is RJ in his mind wanted "Ben Solo" to be dead as Leia states and cares more about Fathiers trashing Canto Bight then focusing in on one of the ST co-protagonists to give her some character development. Could have cut 90% of the Fathier scene saved a bunch of cash and got to the same place story wise. The issue is RJ's choices when it comes to story and what he decided to put on film because there are a whole lot of scenes that he could have and should have filmed that would have elevated TLJ from the mess that it is.

 

Is it any less ridiculous than:

1. Luke tossing the saber over his shoulder.

2. Kylo smashing up his mask 24 hours after worshipping his grandfather's ashes and mask

3. Luke feasting on teat-milk.

4. The many BB-8 escape routines.

5. Force-Skype.

6. Being "cut off" from the force.

7. The seeds being planted for "Reylo".

8. Canto Bight (pick your poison with that entire sequence)

9. Crait Luke and Master Jedi Boulder Remover Rey.

I could go on and on and on...THOSE are ridiculous ideas. Rey killing Kylo and starting down the darkside path is more compelling than any ONE idea posited in TLJ.

The decidedly "non-Jedi training" of Rey even makes it more plausible...not less. After all - she went straight to the dark on Ach-To did she not?

 

Exactly. She doesn’t have any problem killing rank and file soldiers from the gunner seat of the Falcon and she didn’t have any issue having them die in TFA either and she didn’t have any problem killing praetorian guards who were just doing their duty. Oh but they were chasing her and trying to kill her there, didn’t Kylo try to kill her 6 days ago? Didn’t he kill Han Solo who she looked up to, kill tons of people, and help lead a genocide on a planet? I mean if we saw Rey as a pacifist who refused to kill that would be one thing or we had her showing she still thinks there is good in him even after he betrays her, but those don’t happen and we don’t know her thought process. Her decision in that moment will directly lead to more death, destruction and turmoil in the galaxy. This isn’t letting an innocent who might turn evil live this is letting a really bad guy who is going to continue to do evil things just because he can’t fight back at the moment.

The decision to not show that scene is a bad storytelling choice and robs her of agency. It’s like Kylo must live so he will live. It’s so cliche to leave the villain alive. The one time He doesn’t subvert expectations would have been interesting.


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The one time he doesn't subvert expectation is in itself subverting expectation.

The genius of this film continues to astound...

 

Checked it again. I think they messed the logic in the cut room....

 

True, but it'd still be better than doing nothing and letting him remain free.

 

If only Jake Skywalker could force project through time as well as space. He could tell Luke to stick with bull's-eyeing womp rats in the T-16... and to wave vigorously when the friendly men in white armor come to visit the farm.

 

Didn't they do time travel (shudders) in that last cartoon show? Jake can load up with space dinosaur milk and jump in a DeLoreon and get back to Tatooine in no time.

 

Doesn't TLJ (Expanded Edition) novel do something similar?

I thought it started with Luke wishing he would've stayed out of the whole mess altogether and stayed a farmer and married Camie or something like that.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong please...TLJ burned my retinas looking at the film, I certainly don't want to read the book and do permanent damage.

 

First of all, drop the tone as seen in the bolded part above. These are supposed to be friendly discussions.

Secondly, I also don't see any evidence of Rey "only caring about herself". Pretty much all of her appearances in TFA and most of them in TLJ don't seem to support this. One of the first examples of this was when she was offered a lot of portions for BB-8. This is a scavenger who was literally working for food on a daily basis, and her empathy for BB-8 made her reject the offer.

 

Not a problem will drop the tone however it is very difficult to engage in friendly discussion when it seems people ar deliberately engaging only with parts of your points. Message received.

 

Yup. Wrong. The movie doesn't deserve to be a critical darling. Sometimes critics are way off base.

They didn't evaluate it on its merits. They ignored so many blatant glaring flaws and they focused on subversion pretty universally. Subversion isn't story. It's gimmick, much like JJ's mystery boxes. It has nothing to do with obsessive nostalgia. My point had nothing to do with nostalgia or lore or Luke's character. Critics were obsessed with subverting that stuff but that is all irrelevant to story, sort of like you're focusing on it here even though it has nothing to do with my point.

Well, agree to disagree. They were wrong about The Big Lebowski. Many have written about it in embarrassment. They didn't get it.

The interesting thing about ESB, if I recall, is it was not divisive with fans to the extent people say to try and equate it with TLJ, but it was more divisive with critics. That could be another one critics missed the boat on.

This argument is something else I'm willing to characterize as wrong. People pretend everything is same/same. It's not. If it was, every SW movie would cause the same exact reaction as TLJ. They are, after all, all SW saga films and they're all the same amount of divisive going all the way back to ESB. Except no, they're not. Every movie is different and has different reactions. This was true before the internet era, and it's true since the internet era began. We actually can judge things relative to others, and notice that some things are more or less... anything, than others.

It's not presumptuous. It's observation. Above in this very post you immediately argued about how TLJ is good if you just ignore nostalgia and Luke and lore and blah blah. It's always that argument. It always comes back to something along the lines of "TLJ is good because it's not what you expected!"

I need to pay attention because Rey didn't have to leave the room? Huh? She could just stay there forever? lol

I understand she took Snoke's personal escape craft. No really, I literally referenced that in my post. She took the escape craft to, check it out, leave the room. This was referenced off screen after no build up, after the scene emphasized how trapped and helpless Rey was in that very room. After all that drama setting the stage, her escape, actually the most important part of the scene, was handwaved away. It's like if we never saw Luke after he fell down the shaft in ESB until he was already on the MF.

I feel like "perfect" doesn't mean what you think it means.

You totally ignored the part about Rey's characterization in awakening to sleeping Kylo. Characterization of the protagonist isn't "minutiae," and neither is how the protagonist hero escapes from the dragon's lair.

 

I don't necessarily think people who disagree with me about art are 'wrong'. The nature of art is that there isn't right or wrong - there is only a personal opinion. How can you be right or wrong for liking or disliking something completely subjective?

 

I'm not saying anyone is wrong for liking a film. I'm saying critical consensus can be wrong. The Big Lebowski is a cultural icon because it's a good, smart comedy. Not everyone likes it, and no they aren't wrong for disliking it. Everyone likes what they like. However, critical consensus that it's a dumb, bad movie? That was wrong. It's not a dumb, bad movie.

 

You're saying contradictory things. On the one hand opinions on art can't be wrong but the aggregate of those opinions can be wrong. Critical consensus isn't right or wrong - it's just the average opinion on something completely subjective.

I like the Big Lebowski also. The initial critical reaction was different to my opinion of it. It wasnt 'wrong' though.

 

Remember when I said we weren't going to analyze why anyone liked or disliked the film? Yeah, I was serious about that. This thread is to discuss why YOU don't like it. Arguing over critic reviews is not only pointless but it also leads to misery... for me... when I ban all of you and have to deal with all those URs.

 

I'll stop making this argument. I'm not arguing that opinions are wrong but this is going to get way too far in the weeds. However, if we can't argue that critical consensus can miss the mark on quality, I think it is also true that critical consensus isn't an indicator of actual quality. It's just a collection of individual opinions. IMO, in this case those opinions focused in large part on things that are irrelevant to story telling.