ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

The sheer call back to the Scene of look making the wrong choice with regards to Kylo and Rey standing over Kylo and making the "right" choice would have been a far more powerful moment and scene than anything in this movie however if you've seen some of the behind the scenes, deleted scenes and images of cut scenes you know that for whatever reason with regards to this movie RJ tends to cut the best scenes. The Phasma scene that ties directly back into both her book as well as the comic book series was cut... I just can't even with this movie all of the choices and decisions are suspect to me.

 

Um... no. If they had cut out Kylo taking over the First Order I would have thought it was a terrible decision. Just like I think taking out the village scene on Ahch-To was a mistake. I don't argue that the scene shouldn't be in the film because I think RJ ***** gold and can do no wrong. I argue it shouldn't be in the film because it's unnecessary and redundant.

 

Finn's story-arc most definately had a purpose, as did Rose's role in it. It's quite obvious actually. Finn is to grow into a true rebel, not someone who just tries to be there for Rey, which is what he was at the end of TFA. Rose is the positive guiding light for that, the one that tries to pull him to fight for what is right. DJ is the negative guiding light, the one that tells him that it is better to just rely on yourself because the world as a whole doesn't care about doing what is right either.

I have no idea what makes you think that Rey went to the Supremacy to take out two darksiders. That's not what the movie says at all. She went there for one reason and one reason only: because she saw what she thought was Ben turning to the light, being the hero the resistance needed. She didn't go there to get rid of anyone, just to get Ben to switch to their side. She (very likely) mistook seeing the two fighting together as sign of him joining her, just like he thought the other way round.

Her going there for other reasons beyond that is nothing but your assumption, not something actually backed up by the movie. It might be a possibility, but it is very far from the forgone conclusion you make it out to be.

And LOL at Rian Johnson failing to plot out TLJ. The movie was plotted out from start to finish, three storylines, each of them having a main focus character who had an arc for himself, with two "voices" each pulling at them, trying to convince them of a certain way, and a resolution that put each of those three characters right where they were supposed to end up at. From a strict position of plotting things out, this movie nailed it. You don't have to like what happens in the plot, but the structure itself hits all the beats.

You are assuming that Kylo's lightsaber was readily available to her, which doesn't fit to what is in the movie. He lost it, you remember that, yes?
If it had been available right in that moment, he wouldn't have needed to try and get Rey's saber, he just as easily could have tried for his own, but he didn't.

Not to mention that you are still asking for the hero to murder someone in cold blood. Someone who just saved the hero's life, and who asked - no, pleaded - for the hero to leave everything behind and join him. Rey might not have agreed with his decision, but she was clearly torn at that point. How in the world would such a character go from that to searching for Kylo's lightsaber so she could go and murder him while he was unconscious? Especially after all she just went through? In the middle of enemy territory? What if he wakes up right when she attempts it? That would leave her surrounded by enemies with no way out.

Obi Wan couldn't kill Anakin, but somehow Rey is supposed to murder Ben?
She is the hero, she has never killed anyone in cold blood, only when fighting for her own life. It would have gone against everything she stood for, it goes against everything the Jedi stand for, and it goes against everything the movies in their entirety are standing for.

 

I just find it indefensible that in the climax of the movie, our hero disappears. The entire Supremacy has been ripped in half. Burning. A chaotic nightmare. A major catastrophic event never seen before in the saga caused by another character who has sacrificed themselves so that her comrades can survive. So that our hero herself, can survive. The villain is knocked out cold. The FO should be scrambling in panic. And our hero escapes unharmed ... off screen.

This wasn't even something that was filmed and cut. As far as we know, it was never even written. "Oh, her? Yeah, she stole um....Snoke's ship. Yeah...that's the ticket."

THAT IS LAZY.

And this isn't just about Rey not killing Kylo in that moment. I'm not even arguing that she should have done that. This is about fulfilling the drama. To defend this choice by saying it's a foregone conclusion how the hero would have acted so we don't need to see it play out is a pretty damning statement. That's just hand waving away what could be suspenseful if the writer wanted it to be. You could easily imagine Rey waking up first, possibly injured or confused momentarily, and seeing Kylo still passed out. As others have mentioned, the scene could have built off of what transpired with Luke standing over young Ben Solo in the flashback because it's the major lesson of the movie, one that Rey needs to learn. Rey just gives him a knowing look and in that moment decides not to act here and now. She spares him. She picks up both pieces of the saber, almost a metaphor itself. The throne room then rumbles and she realizes she has to save her friends. As the Supremacy burns and the FO scrambles in panic, we watch our hero escape and see her still pensive and shaken up. Now alone, she's dealing with the consequence of her actions. Our hero survives and we connect that back to the personal sacrifice of the other character. And the scene finally comes to a close.

That could have easily been dramatic. And trilling to watch. Instead, what this does, is essentially undercuts the entire drama, the importance of that sacrifice, and of the characters we're supposedly invested in watching. As a result, it doesn't even matter in the grand scheme of events in the movie. Our hero escapes off screen, (frankly, almost like a cliche villain) because watching her do so would have been boring. And the FO shows up on Crait just as they would have if nothing had happened either way.

The writer set this up, and then says...this doesn't even matter, we don't need to see it. The writer places these two character together to be in this exact situation and then says, nah, it's not important how it ends. The writer says this sacrifice is important, but doesn't actually care how his own story betrays that.

The main character just leaves. Off screen. Because the other character (and the audience) was knocked out. That's boring.

 

Obi - Wan couldn't kill Anakin because of their past something that Rey and Kyle do not share. He also figured that he would die due to his injuries and if not for Palpatine he would have. The scene with regards to Obi - Wan makes far more sense as Anakin is very much his little brother and closest friend. Kylo is Rey's captor and abuser why should she feel for him the same way Obi - Want felt about Anakin that's just pure nonsense. Also Rey is not a Jedi she got two lessons and hasn't even done the required reading between semesters yet. Is she starting on the Jedi path perhaps we will see where things go in IX but in this movie she is definitely not a Jedi

 

That’s good to know, but what I was trying to emphasize was that people argue based on what they know it exists, in which is becomes a comfortable practice to deflect criticism that is about scenes that don’t exist/were never thought about. That includes your example. Yes it was probably a mistake to remove the village scene, but that was a realization that came after you watched the scene.

We feel there was a scene missing after the Reylo fight that for some reason was never thought of, not even conceived, even though such scenes typically exist in main character-driven stories.

 

How would it be a cheap, manufactured moment when it would show depth to the character of Rey? Her going from the throne room to "Woo Hoo I like this!" and then removing the side of a mountain practically are the very definition of cheap, manufactured moments.

God forbid there's any real depth to these characters right? Let's just get on with the quick cheap exposition and then more explosions - which really characterizes this ST quite well.

Nope...character development, depth of emotion, moments of truth, all those are boring and so suburban. More 'splosions and pew-pews please!

Let me leave it at this: a quote, and then a simple overview of how to write a compelling character --

The best fiction is about a character who changes in some significant way. The selfish brute learns to put others first. The woman marrying for money decides to marry for love. The career ladder climber learns to cut back on his hours to enjoy his family. The bitter old crone learns to let others in. The independent pilot of the Millennium Falcon learns to care about a cause. The owner of Rick’s Café Américain decides he will stick his neck out for somebody after all.

We love to see characters transformed. Mainly because we are being transformed. We know the painful but liberating feeling of ceasing to be one way and beginning to be another, especially if the new way results in more success in relationships or other areas of life we value.
—by Jeff Gerke

Now for a brief tutorial on writing characters (concerning Rey's regressive, non-development in the throne room):

Initial Condition (Rey going to Kylo)
Inciting Event (Kylo killing Snoke and returning Rey's saber)
Escalation (PG Guard fight that crescendos with teary Rey & ending with Kylo unconscious)
Moment of Truth (NOWHERE TO BE FOUND)
Final State. ("Woo Hoo!! I like this" and then all smiles aboard the Falcon)

Rey is nonsensically written for TLJ. This movie simply is eye-candy and really no more than that. All the arcs boil down to cheap, manufactured moments imo. Having one more in the throne room wouldn't have made a lick of difference. What it would have done is give Rey's character some depth.

 

And I disagree. If it were a scene that I honestly thought would enrich the narrative of the film I would argue for its inclusion even if the scene didn't actually exist. I simply don't believe the scene in question would add any value to the film. It's redundant as has been pointed out because Hux gives us the relevant information that Rey escaped and also because we already have a character consider killing Kylo while he's unconscious. So we'd have a scene with Rey considering killing Kylo followed by a scene with Hux considering killing Kylo.

 

This isn’t simple. Everything after your line about how simple it is is you are writing for the film, writing for Rey’s motives that aren’t in the film. It doesn’t make sense that it’s not practical or plausible to capture him. She is long gone by the time Hux gets there, and she force lifts a wall of boulders a few minutes later to save the people she supposedly gift wrapped her body to the bad guys in order to save. Did she suddenly for a few seconds have no motivation to save those people from the evil bad guy that just promised her he would massacre them down to the last man?

Your argument ignores the motive to save the people Rey is supposedly motivated to save. Kind of like the movie during most of the movie.

 

The best way to help her friends is get out of there as quickly as possible, get to the Falcon and actually help them fight off the First Order which is exactly what she does. Taking the time to capture Kylo is an unnecessary risk as it's a very real possibility that she'll be captured herself. Then her friends are dead.

 

2 out of 3 plotlines at most have a purpose. You can literally remove every Finn & Rose scene from the movie, and it is still the same movie, without any change in the plot. The Finn & Rose adventure serves exactly zero purpose for the movie's plot. It would have been awesome in Space Balls though!

Differences between the Obi-Wan - Anakin relationship & the Rey - Ben relationship, plus the unfolding of events:

- Obi-Wan has been friends (brothers really) with Anakin for more than 10 years. They have fought hundreds of battles together. He was Anakin's mentor and teacher. He has seen half of Anakin's life and everything that shaped him. Rey first saw this man two weeks before.
- Obi-Wan KILLS Anakin. Or at least he thinks he does. He leaves him for dead, missing 3 limbs and burning alive. Rey leaves Kylo Ren alive, knowing very well he will most definitely stay alive.
- Anakin has done some bad things by that point (#eventheyounglings), but he has also saved millions of lives. Kylo Ren is just a piece of **** and Rey knows it very well at this point.
- Obi-Wan is a candidate for the best hero of all times in the SW universe. Rey is not a hero, no. TLJ made sure of that.

 

These words cut right to the point. Only if one uses headcanon can they make sense of TLJ - which in turn is needed to make sense of the ST. Which is so ironic because the main accusation against those who didn't like TLJ was "because it didn't fit your headcanon of what was going to happen".

Hopefully the "course correction" is indeed in play. Star Wars needs it.

 

Actually it’s not the best thing to help her friends. I was just thinking about what would have happened if Hux showed up while she was attempting to capture Kylo. And then I remembered nothing would happen. Hux is a joke that can’t use the force. He’s no threat to Rey. And then I remembered Snoke is dead and Kylo is incapacitated at this point. The amount of damage superRey could have done to the FO from that ship is immeasurable.

 

Rey is like Forrest Gump. She thrives while everyone around her meets horrible fates.

 

I just thought of something...if Rey would've won the "tug of war" - would she have tried to fight Kylo to the death then? They most certainly would've dueled.

The tug of war and exploding lightsaber is the whole crux of her non-decision to capture/kill Kylo. That is why some kind of actual visualization of her decision seems necessary.

If into the boards you go, only pain will you find - most defenders of the ST currently think "course correction" is in relation to Solo's box office and marketing, and doesn't actually mean repairing the rift the ST has caused up to this point or its story (or lack thereof).

I for one am taking the words "course correction" at face value...meaning the whole of SW & LFL.

 

I wasn’t arguing it’s relevant because it tells us how Rey escaped. I think it’s relevant because it gives important character information of Rey, as well as gives her decision power in the narrative, as well as gives her a more participating role in the overarching plot by making her actions as important as the mundane plot points and her feelings as important as the main drama.

And keeps the audience with Rey. Because after the throne scene she might as a well been a supporting character.

I mean, the movie quite literally skipped the only scene that gives history-changing decision power to Rey.

 

So you didn't have a sense of isolation after that elevator ride? You didn't feel like Rey was isolated and trapped in the lion's den with only one route of escape, right through the very heart of power of the bad guys? Okay. I did, and I thought that was intentional.

And your emphasis on the villains in the room just makes the point that just very recently hit me for the first time. Once Snoke, Kylo Ren and the PGs were taken care of, nobody on that ship was a threat to Rey. She was in no danger at all. So why did she run away with her tail between her legs and leave them free and clear to murder her friends unopposed again?

A throwaway line a lot of the audience missed is the very definition of something being handwaved to me.

Rey leaving the ship was only uneventful because the writing ignored it. It shouldn't have been uneventful. There is no story justification for that moment being a nothing moment character-wise or escape-wise.

Luke's escape on Bespin wasn't even from the heart of Empire territory. He just had to escape Vader, and even then drama called for him to be rescued because Vader was such an overpowering villain Luke had to risk almost certain death to get away. This is like saying "that other movie made it interesting because it was written to be interesting. TLJ didn't write it to be interesting therefore it didn't need to be interesting."

Yeah, once again, you ignored the characterization part of the protagonist where she was alone with the unconscious evil bad guy who just promised to massacre the good guys. If a high school sophomore ignored that kind of character-defining dramatic moment in the final draft of a creative writing essay, they would automatically deserve a low grade.

And yeah, if a protagonist is in a dragon's lair in the heart of dragon territory next to a sleeping dragon, and then the story cut away to her being in a totally different location away from all the dragons with just a throwaway line about how a giant magical eagle swooped in and took the protagonist to safety, that would also be terrible. So no, the box isn't "ticked," unless the box you're referring to is for textbook bad writing.

I don't understand how you don't understand. She asked Kylo, the now de facto leader of the bad guys, to stop murdering the good guys. He said no, and told her she should join him in murdering the good guys. Then a couple scenes later, he's leading the bad guys in his quest to mass murder the good guys. This isn't a debatable point. Taking out a leader that's intent on mass murder is good for the victims of the mass murder. If Rey had stuck around like a real hero, she could have taken Hux out too. Then the FO would have no leader. Go down the list, and eventually you'll get a FO leader with some brains that realizes FO command would be more useful perhaps in the battle for Coruscant as they retake the galaxy, as opposed to in the middle of nowhere murdering the last of a group of a few hundred soldiers from an army already decimated and defeated that isn't defending any territory at all.

As is obvious from the movie, the FO murdered a hell of a lot of Resistance soldiers on Crait on the command of Kylo. Thanks for the help there Rey!

 

^Rey goes from this...


^...in her very next scene to this

Han Solo wasn't the main character of A New Hope, so it's brushing her character aside to have her disappear offscreen only to appear and take out the TIES with the Falcon near the end.

The movie poorly represents her POV (the movie even gives Kylo and Luke flashbacks but nothing for Rey), which is part of the reason why she has the least % of screen time of any SW plurality lead ever (which probably includes the Solo movie, but I've seen no breakdown for it yet.) Same reason why she dresses up like Jedi in the middle of the movie for some reason (where'd the clothes come from?) and takes the Jedi books offscreen, the latter of which I wonder if it was some request by Trevorrow.

 

And there it is...pictures don't lie.

She went for the saber, with the intention of fighting him, then escaping the Supremacy.

How would she escape? By killing him one can presume. Otherwise why go for the saber? Why not pull that "force knockout" trick Kylo used on her from TFA? She downloaded that power after all right?

So what changed her mind?

Cruddy writing changed her mind. Sheesh...this movie.

 

Just fill in the gaps with headcanon.

 

The disparity between crying about Kylo and dealing with that epic failure...and two minutes later being excited and happy about killing Tie-Fighers is amazing. If only there was some necessary scene in-between showing how Rey deals with this situation and overcomes it. I know that when I face life-defining failure, I'm usually over it by the next commercial so I should probably give her a break. But it would still have been cool to see.

 

I'm sure since we have PTSD depressed Luke, and Angsty McTantrumAbs Kylo, and toxic masculine Poe, etc., etc. and all those other real world projections to explain away the development of these characters, we can just chalk up Rey's behavior to ADHD Rey or Bi Polar Rey or Manic Depression Rey...

...cuz it certainly looks that way on film.

 

Of course she was going to fight him... before the Raddus smashes into the Supremacy and knocks him out. Fighting him would be the only way for her to escape. After he's knocked out she doesn't have to fight him anymore.