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Senate Understanding Christianity

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 24, 2012.

  1. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga + JCC Manager / Finally Won A Draft star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    the lesson is that loving money is evil.
     
  2. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    May 25, 2000
    Who is actually saying this though? I see criticism of a specific rich person. But rich people as a whole? Who is saying this?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  3. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    I'm guessing this post seemed a lot smarter when it was in your head.
     
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  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    You didn’t need to copy it for me. I have already read all 66 books from the copy currently sitting on my bookshelf. I’ve also read some of the Bible in two languages other than English. Your copying a passage onto a Star Wars message board does not change what it says.

    People who disagree with your interpretation are not wrong or stupid, as much as you might wish that were so.
     
  5. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 28, 2004
    Can you show me where He is saying that? I mean, it is one of His lessons, but this isn't what He is saying here.

    Here he is saying that even in all things man made, such as worldly wealth, none can get a man into Heaven. Only God can provide salvation.

    The implication of @Glitterstimm was that the passage implied that rich people have a harder time getting into Heaven than other people. Thus rich=bad.

    I'm pointing out that this isn't what Jesus is saying here.

    But if Jesus is ralking about a specific person, can you tell me who? Because I feel like "A rich man" is a blanket for the rich in general.

    I've copied it for you because I was hoping you'd actually read it. The interpretation that rich=bad isn't here.

    It just ain't.

    The interpretation that riches are useless is there, certainly. But not that they are bad.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  6. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    @J-Rod do please explain the Apostle Paul's error to him.

    More broadly, your reading in Matthew is ridiculous. It ignores the whole sequence of events. Jesus was just approached by someone that refused to give to charity because they enjoyed their wealth. Commenting on that particular event, he then made a general remark about the challenges rich people face in finding salvation. It is only after he laid out how particularly challenging it could be for him that the disciples were amazed. No one had ever put forward the idea that rich people had an easier time getting into Heaven. Nor did that idea really exist within Judaism.

    No one thought that but you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  7. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 28, 2004
    5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

    6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

    7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

    8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

    9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

    10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

    Nothing in there is wrong. It's a stern warning that worldly gain isn't godliness.

    In fact, it has it's own pitfalls for people who are seeking it.

    He goes on to say:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;"

    18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

    19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.


    Again, asserting that wealth isn't salvation and you need to store up the works that build a good foundation for eternal life.

    But at no point here, does he say that the riches themselves are bad. Only that those who seek them risk pitfalls.

    EDIT: Can you tell me, then, what were they amazing and astonished about after God said a rich man will have a difficult time getting into Heaven?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  8. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    No it's quite a bit more than that. You keep wanting to push some notion that huge portions of the Bible are dedicated to convincing people that material wealth does not ensure salvation. You're letting it warp your entire interpretive frame, despite no evidence of such a belief being prevalent of needing rebuttal. The reality is that these points are legitimately critical of wealth, and do encourage helping the underserved as an alternative. Calling something "the root of all evils" isn't just saying that there are some downsides. It is calling it intrinsically wrong.
     
  9. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    It's also worth considering how this rhetorical trick works.

    "Thou shalt not kill."

    Now, presuppose that there was some doctrine claiming that murdering people got you into Heaven. Don't bother to prove there was anything like it, but just pretend it existed. One could then argue "Well, the Bible isn't saying murder is bad. They are just reassuring people that murder is not a positive good."

    Nothing has to mean anything if it's all just rebutting some imaginary and absurd idea that you pulled out of a hat, rather than addressing the actual topic the plain text purports to speak on in the manner and force we're actually offered.
     
  10. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

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    Mar 22, 2003
    But there was evil before there was money . So - I guess it's more refering to the way someone would regard money , for instance that they love it more than people .
     
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  11. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 28, 2004
    While you are spot on with the charity aspect of it, we just won't see eye to eye on the rest.

    Man, I love these topics! And thanks for not insulting me. :)
     
  12. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Small, but Lethal star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    You mean the girl with the apple? The guy was hungry!
     
  13. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 29, 2005
    The Bible clearly can be interpreted in only one way, and is an infallible guide to morality - just ask the Southern Baptists in the pre-Civil War South.
     
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  14. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    Well for people who truly believe charity can be private, I would hope they are then likewise giving a big tithe to charity. Maybe I just give too much credit because I grew up with my parents as a good example of this. They believe in a few government safety nets (as most people do), but they still wish taxes were much lower. They wish this partly because they would rather choose how to charitably give their money than have the government do it. Right now they give 10% of their earnings to charities (not the church... they stopped giving to the church directly long ago, feeling their money would be spent on sanctuaries and not charitable works).

    Now, their argument is if they were taxed 10% less, they'd give that 10% more to charity, so it would still benefit others. They just feel the government is not as effective as some charities and don't like being forced to give the money to them.

    Now, see this is the kind of person I can personally disagree with about the role of government but still respect. I know there are other Christians like that as well.

    But there are certainly many who just want to keep money away from the government to spend it on themselves. And that is decidedly un-Christlike.
     
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  15. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 19, 2015
    The Bible isn't the world's worst instruction manual. The world's worst instruction manual was this folded piece of paper that came with a universal remote I got. It was a useless quick start guide with a reference to a website, but the website link didn't work. There was also a toll-free phone number to call in case of questions, but that didn't work either. Obviously the customer support that comes with Christianity really is abominable.
     
  16. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Small, but Lethal star 6

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    Dec 22, 2015
    Yes. Adam did not know what IKEA can provide
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I get the argument that “if I weren’t taxed this much, I could give more to charity,” and I think some people would actually do it. But the issue with the libertarian argument that charity should be the foundation for all social safety nets is that charitable organizations can choose who they will help, and many churches already put stipulations on getting help—at worst, they will not help a same-sex couple or someone who is a single parent by choice, at best, they will make people listen to a sermon about being “saved” first. While Jesus might support the sermon (emphasis on “might”), I can’t see him supporting the stipulations.

    And people like Joel Osteen make a mockery of the teachings of Jesus.

    I give quite a bit to charity myself, but the pressure to donate a specific percentage of my income to a specific church in order to fund a damn building, as well as the drama that was ever present in every church I have ever attended, are two of the factors that led me to walk away from organized religion entirely.
     
  18. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    May 25, 2000
    [face_whistling]
     
  19. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000

    I agree that there shouldn't be stipulations on receiving the charity. Charity should be for anyone and everyone who needs it, especially the outcast. As I said, I personally don't subscribe to the libertarian argument. I am just saying there are some people who subscribe to it who are sincere in their faith and commitment to charity. And I can respect that, even though I don't agree with it personally.
     
  20. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    J-Rod, read the Acts of the Apostles, the book of the Bible that immediately follows the Gospels, picking up where Luke left off. It describes how the followers of Jesus behaved and lived. It describes a commune where there's no personal possession.

    There's also the "feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, take care of the sick, visit the prisoners, welcome the strangers to the land, etc." section. There's the "what you have done to the least of me, you have done to me" section. There's what you quoted, the "if you want to be perfect [after listing the human-centric commandments] then give all your wealth to the power and follow me" section.

    There's a theme here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  21. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    May 25, 2000
    For all the hand-wringing about how God is going to judge the United States for issues deemed politically left-leaning, there is this Old Testament bit about the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah:


    "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

    And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good."
    -
    Ezekiel 16:49-50 (KJV)

    And from the New Testament, to echo @Ghost

    "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
    -
    Matthew 25:31-46
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  22. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    May 25, 2000
    I think the implication was that rich people are subject to greater temptation, not inherently bad. @Glitterstimm am I understanding your points correctly?
     
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  23. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    I will, if J-rod wants to have that fight. I have no problem arguing that the amassing of wealth in a world with poverty is an evil act.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
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  24. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 19, 2015
    No one wants the Bible to be in conflict with the ideal that America was founded on, that the Christian god demonstrates its favor by showering deserving people with material riches. That's the kind of Christianity folks can get behind. If I'm rich it's because God wants me to be rich. So there!
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  25. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

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    Nov 9, 2000
    I suppose that depends on one's understanding of the borders of the Kingdom of Heaven. I hear they're intent on building a wall to stop people from illegally entering from Purgatory.