Lit Another TIE Variant: Concerning the Silent Badass, Raith Sienar – and that Ryder Windham Fellow

Well, yes, but if per Daneira they were using "liberated" A-9 Vigilances, KDY's politics are irrelevant, aren't they? It becomes simply a matter of "the New Republic thought those captured ships were worth recycling; apparently unlike the TIE fighters."

I admit I'd never heard that about the New Republic's A-9s. Maybe they did just hate Sienar.

 

That kind of recycling of ideas that never made it in the movies is the sort of thing I really enjoy in the expanded universe. Like Mother Talzin in TCW, whose design appears to resemble concept art for "Sith witches" from the nineties that never made it to the screen.

As concerns starfighters, one design I always wished the expanded universe had latched onto was an early concept for the N-1 starfighter, which looked mostly like the finished product, but included a topside missile launcher mounted behind the cockpit and the astromech. It's something that's just begging to be canonized as "yeah, the Trade Federation occupation left a mark on Naboo, and then the Clone Wars happened, so they came up with upgraded versions of the N-1 that packed a lot more punch."

 

TBH, I've always thought it was a shame that the narrative structure of the prequels made the N-1 disappear almost entirely after TPM. It was a favorite design of that movie for me.

 

As for New Republic use of TIEs, there was one(maybe two) ISD in Solo Command that had defected to the NR with its entire complement, whose fighter pilots continued to fly their TIEs against Zsinj in the Solo Fleet.

 

Yeah, same. They never really had an iconic equivalent to the X-wing in the prequel trilogy, but the N-1 is still my favorite to come out of that era.

 

On the contrast between the X-wing and the TIE, I'm not sure how much I can add to what's been said by @Alpha-Red @Long Snoot and @Ackbar's Fishsticks. At the risk of repeating something you can read in WARFARE (pp. 51-53)... the key difference is that a snubfighter like the X-wing carries a whole lot more equipment, most notably the big power generator that runs the hyperdrive and shields, plus a sensor package that doesn't rely on support from a carrier, and a missile launcher that can challenge larger ships. This is what you need for an autonomous fighter than can deploy through hyperspace without a carrier in direct support. The result is a machine which doesn't quite have the same performance edge, and probably requires a lot more fuel and maintenance, but is more forgiving and robust, and probably built to looser tolerances, requiring less fine-tuning to work at optimal performance - there's going to be an impetus towards simplicity of design in the individual details, to make the more sophisticated overall combination practical, which is an interesting tradeoff (for any WW2 buffs, there's a very loose analogy in the way that the rugged, relatively straightforward radial eventually beat out the more streamlined, sophisticated and complex liquid-cooled inlines). The Empire, to produce a TIE variant that matches this versatility while retaining the type's superior speed/manoeuvre performance (i.e. the TIE Defender), has to use expensively miniaturised systems that push the price up well beyond the level of the X-wing, and are likely to be ultra-high-maintenance, as well.

Or they could use a SoroSub Preybird, which is tough, cheap, versatile, and doesn't need to manoeuvre when someone gets on the tail, because there's a backwards-firing launcher which can punch them in the face with concussion missiles.

The pre-reboot New Republic does use TIEs at least occasionally, as @Nom von Anor has mentioned. This seems to have begun with captured Star Destroyers, but still continues in the NJO - in Ylesia, there's a passing reference to Star Destroyers of the New Republic First Fleet having TIE Fighters aboard (the Chiss Clawcraft of Jag's squadron are able to use the pre-existing maintenance arrangements), and I have a vague idea there may be other more direct NJO references, as well.

I would hazard that TIEs continue to be useful as a picket fighter to screen task force formations in the NR's big regional fleets (which we never really see in any closer details than this) - note that the New Class ships use the Defender, a very compact fighter with neither hyperdrive nor missiles, in this role. Also, at least one of the WotC sourcess mentions that the Empire established big TIE production facilities on the edge of Imperial City - so at least by way of retcon, that implies that when the NR liberated Coruscant, they acquired a capacity to produce them in some numbers...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Recalling all this really screams Jacen/Kylo in a Tie vibes now...

Tie Blur and Tie Whisper?

Also with the Imperial Remnant involved heavily in the GFFA back then, I do wonder how "First Order" the Galactic Alliance did look, when it came to Stardestroyers and Ties making up a huge percentage of their forces again. Ever since they after the NJO handed territory to the Remnant that wanted to join it willingly and allied with the Remnant with sharing military, there was a slow subversion of the GA that culminated in Pellaeon as Surpreme Commander and Daala as Chief of State. Even Caedus's Galactic Alliance Guard stormtrooperized the armed forces again.
Seems Victory without War press campaigns existed already before Jag introduced that name and strategy.

Nice paralell and fitting theme for Legends versions of Centrists within the GA adopting neoimperial designs and ideas post NJO. One Canon couldn't have it easier here!

 

Sinre: I'd forgotten that little detail from the Roundabout fiasco! The fact that the Empire was able to contribute a symbolic force of TIEs to the Dodonna hints that the Dodonna might be pre-equipped for TIEs. As with Jag's more clear-cut remark abo ut his Clawcraft using the maintenance element aboard NR Star Destroyers in Ylesia, there's a hint that the NR do retain a meaningful force of TIEs "off-screen" aboard their big pointy ships in general.

Glancing through the X-wing novels, there are some interesting details - during the Zsinj campaign, the captured ISD Skyhook is carrying a full TIE wing, with Imperial defectors flying them; her fighters and those of the captured ISD Crynyd are held back as a picket line to protect the Imperial interdictor Stellar Web - and because the escort force was specifically chosen to give the impression of a larger Imperial contingent, that implies that both ISDs are still carrying their full complement of TIEs.

A more complex example is the ISD Allegiance, equipped with a mixed wing of TIEs and "Rebel" types - I can't find any source for Wookieepedia's claims about their composition in 7 ABY, but in 9 ABY and 12 ABY, she's carrying two squadrons of shielded TIE Fighters, which are said to be "now a common sight in friendly hangars", plus squadrons of X-wings, Y-wings, A-wings, and B-wings.

Shielded TIE Interceptors seem to have become the Remnant's go-to fighters from the Thrawn period onwards, per the TTSB. Makes me wonder if the Starhunter is something more sophisticated, perhaps the pre-reboot version of the TIE Baron?

Another question, though - who is making the TIEs...? There are plenty of examples of individual factories being removed from Sienar's control. But when does the NR/Alliance start working with Sienar? Does the Empire start producing their TIEs independently at some point?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Checking the Dark Empire Sourcebook, I'm reminded that Lianna's agreement is specifically with the local Imperial governor, Moff Gronn, trading him TIEs and bribes in exchange for Gronn recognizing their neutrality and permitting their new business relationship with the NR (which could be based primarily on their civilian subsidiaries). Interesting to find a Moff holding on out there that long, too...

The question I'm now puzzling over is whether there's any evidence that Santhe/Sienar used their neutrality to retain formal connections with other Imperial factions beyond Moff Gronn. They're practically inside Zsinj's territory, and working with them would fit his style, but although we know that Zsinj covertly bought the TIE production facility at Ession in the Corporate Sector off them, that was officially to make civilian repulsorlift vehicles, and Cracken's Threat Dossier insists that there was no Sienar involvement in the design of Zsinj's new TIE Raptor...

I don't think I've seen any source saying they actually did business with the Empire proper after Endor (though I'm happy to be proved wrong! ). Thyferra has to buy TIEs off Harrsk and Terradoc, implying that those two have seized the production lines in their territory. On the other hand... the Alignment's "Sienar/KDY" is described in SWAJ #3 as if both Sienar proper and KDY proper are involved, to the extent that both are described as having "representatives" on the Alignment's legislature - the straight reading would be that both of the "big two" shipbuilding conglomerates are full voting members of the Alignment, which puts a whole new spin on the New Republic's willingness to pretend that the Alignment isn't an Imperial warlord state...

There's also an interesting line in The Unfiying Force where General Garray, the Alliance commander at Caluula, refers in passing to the fact that "Sienar Systems pulled up stakes" from Lianna at some point before 30 ABY, leading to the shipyard's productivity falling dramatically. Not clear from that line if this was due to Yuuzhan Vong control of the Perlemian, or a corporate relocation at an earlier date...

Anyone got any more on any of this?

On the side-topic of shielded TIEs - canonically speaking, I can't see anything to say that the Starhunter is actually particularly new in Invincible, just that the type is current...

The shielded TIE Interceptor introduced by Thrawn is statted in TTSB with the same 110 MGLT top speed and ludicrous manoeuvrability as the original TIE Interceptor, suggesting that the penalty of the added deflector systems was perceived as being in complexity and credits rather than performance - but on the other hand, the 110 MGLT speed for the Interceptor originated way back in the SWSB, as game mechanics in the context of pre-production intelligence obtained by the Rebel Alliance, and conflicts with the 125 MGLT top speed from the chart created as guidance for the VFX in Return of the Jedi. If we were to put any emphasis on that "Endor" figure, this would imply a performance drop. Perhaps the early REBELS type has 110 MGLT, the full-production Endor type has 125 MGLT, and the shielded version of the Endor type drops back to 110 MGLT?

As a tangent, the Defender starfighter, the "New Class" answer to shielded TIEs, was statted with better manoeuvrability than even the TIE Interceptor, but a modest speed of just 80 MGLT, well below the X-wing and the standard TIE, and in the same ballpark as "attack" types like the TIE Bomber and Y-wing. This might be seen as a good fit for their assigned roles of defensive picket duty and bomber escort - both are scenarios in which the opponents' superiority fighters have to come into the dogfight with them, and there's a sort of logic to limiting them to a speed where they can catch up with bombers (either their own or the opposition's) rather than chasing off after superiority fighters. All this may be a sort of indication of what we should expect of shielded TIE Fighters too. The Defender's most obvious advantage over the shielded TIE is enhanced performance down in the dirt, which fits with the K-wing's profile.

Also, a thought - I'm struck by the way that the difference between the TIE, "a short-range fighter", and the longer-range Rebel ships, works out in their different appearance, and I'm curious if that was consciously intended by anyone in the ANH design team (Wookieepedia seems to indicate that the idea about the TIE having solar panels and ion engines came directly from GL, though like a lot of what Wookieepedia says, I've not found a proper source for that)...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I remember hearing somewhere that the TIE design was originally meant to indicate it was more advanced than the Rebel fighters with their visible "rocket-style" engines.

 

With all the Uglies around that cross Tie and Rebel Fighter tech like X-Wings, I do wonder when a proper company made cross will merge both fighters benefits and reduce any Ugly disadvanteages. Well rights issues aside and Incom never working with Sienar, in a way the design stealing Chiss and their Clawcraft came already close to merge both fighters benefits. Likewise Thrawn with his Tie-Defenders before them.

It should be easy to replace X-Wing old school engines with several Tie-style Ion engines along the wings and back. I mean, essentially Resistance and the new NR T-85s look like they might have done that actually incorporating more powerful engines into the old rocket style housing. Also last Resistance episodes First Order X-Wing training drones have Tie-style engine dots in the back if my eyes did not betray me. Even TLJs booster engine Poe was testing felt more like a Ion engine to me than anything else given its tiny size and strapon fixture to his fighters back. Have to reread what the guides said about that one though.

The new cross fighter could even keep his larger power generator and Astromech, but might trade some generator size for padding the Wings with solar collector panels like Tie-Wings had to increase power saving and recharging and reduce stress on the generator.

Last but not least, X-Wings got huge long cannons, whereas other fighters like Ties have short ones with quite a punch nevertheless. Even other Rebel Fighters like Y-Wings or A-Wings have way shorter cannons. And length does not seem to increase the power exponentially. So those may see an upgrade too to latest tech levels with shorter equally powerful guns.

X-Wings sensor package though takes up quite some space, whereas Ties rely on data feeds from their mothership and rarely have an as excellent sensor package.

So, with the Empire not outright nationalising every asset but owning the Ties anyway, how many non-Sienar designs are around? How could the NR operate likewise and adapt Sienars basically "open source"-Tie Design and specifications to their needs like shields etc.?

 

I think if it were up to me, I'd retcon it so that most TIEs do have shields. I'd also delete the hyperdrive and missile launchers on the A-wing (or at least make a variant without them), and make it numerically the main starfighter in the New Republic, along with the leftover TIEs.

 

In the Expanded Universe, the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology indicated that SFS cut ties with the Imperial Remnant after Thrawn's defeat and started selling to whomever wanted ships. In Children of the Jedi, the President of the Board of Directors (not named) was one of the people invited to the Imperial talks on Belsavis. And Unknown Regions stated that most of its TIE factories were either dormant or destroyed after the fall of the Empire.
It's also interesting to note that the head of Santhe/Sienar covertly supported the Alliance during the Rebellion Era in order to secure Lianna's independence (revealed in Mission to Lianna).

 

I kinda wish Legends sources never estabilished the TIE/ln as the "cheap, inferior fighter", given that it wasn't meant (or shown) to be so in ANH. The new Canon didn't really change anything (if not the presence of little life support to explain some scenes in Rebels), but at least the recent Workshop Manual did it some justice by praising its weapons and wing armor other than the usual speed and manouverability.

100% agree about A-Wings and I think in general these systems should be much rarer in small starfighters (I really hope tthe presence of a shield generator in the V-Wing never gets ported from Legends). My current head-canon is that shield generator and missiles were not present in the cannon-fodder Rebels variant, but added in the customised ROTJ version (or the opposite, given that this variant is supposed to be lighter). We might get some sort of explaination in the upcoming Rebel Starfighter manual too.

EDIT: I also don't remember if the "stock" A-Wings from Rebels are supposed to have hyperdrives. I'm pretty sure in the first seasons you always see them deploying from either a CR-90 or a Pelta when the fleet leaves hyperspace.

 

The two-seater trainer that Ezra flies to Tatooine (on his own) certainly had a hyperdrive.

The two-seater trainer that Ezra flies to Tatooine (on his own) certainly had a hyperdrive.

I don't know about the missiles, but the ROTJ version does have reduced or no shielding. The lasers may also have been replaced with lighter ones:

https://www.starwars.com/databank/a-wing-fighter

Alliance techs stripped away shields, armor and heavy weapons to create a fighter that was tough to maintain and fly, but could outrun even a TIE interceptor. These reworked RZ-1s played an important role in the Battle of Endor, the rebels' greatest victory over the Empire.

 

Oh that's nice to hear, I had assumed they kept the shielding from Legends for the ROTJ A-Wing.

 

It's possible that they did and it's just a smaller, weaker generator - we'll have to see what the Starfighter Manual says.

 

I can't speak much on the Uglies specifically, but based on the TIE book, it seems that non-Sienar TIE designs, or modified designs, are not legal. I think this is where Sienar-Jaemus comes in to play, and to be honest, I don't fully understand it. According to the TIE book, after the Empire fell apart, Sienar became Sienar-Jaemus (the details of which I'm confused about, and are not explained in any sourcebook I've read yet), and began taking contracts for the New Republic, but as soon as the FO began, they switched sides:

When did the FO reveal their fleet to the galaxy? I don't think we know that specific event yet (I have not been keeping up to date on the comics, so I may be wrong). I think that, and the decision to become Sienar-Jaemus (whatever that was about), affected the output of TIEs post-ROTJ.

 

I guess due to too close Imperial ties, the Republic insisted on Sienar to join with Jaemus to be able to keep operating. Kinda forcing their hand or face nationalisation/dismantling entirely. In the process many unreleased designs and personnel probably were secreted away to the Unknown Regions leaving Sienar-Jaemus a shell of old Sienar.

Much like during the Clone Wars KDY used Rothana as subsidiary, UR Sienar used Sienar-Jaemus I bet, or vice versa.

Given the slow and much later only reveal of the secret FO to leading Centrist Senators, the corporations were in on the FO much earlier already I bet. Maybe they even were who introduced Centrist Senators to the FO proper given their lobbying ties.

I do wonder, aside Sienar and KDY, who else was in on it or what other big players are involved, as all the big economy entities, guilds and companies in the Clone Wars were playing both sides until found out to be Separatist. What about the banks or else? Given the public Centrist FO is basically same area as old Imperial Remnant, Muunilinst and Scipio may sure play the same game Sienar and KDY do.

See my above reply to Barriss

Given Muunilinst is right next to Jaemus (the planet), Sienar and Jaemus joining forces sure may appease the NR government but de facto they are in cahoots and aligned quite well pro Centrist. Also, this close to the Banking Clan, I am sure banks played a role too, probably buying up Sienar? With Imperial designs frowned upon and the Empire gone, all major contracts collapsing in on themselves, Sienar faced an existential crisis and probably avoided bankruptcy under the NR by finding Muun investors and being merged with Jaemus. Regaining some foot on the market via maintenance and resupplying of existing Sienar designs and ships for both the NR and individual contractors they could go on in a reduced capacity.

Jaemus though is the obvious choice for Sienar. It was Confederacy during the Clone War, so NR might not outright associate it with Republic/Empire and more a Rebel alignment. Despite that though it is a shipbuilding traditional world and had previously under a Moff worked with Santhe, which too has close ties to Sienar via Santhe-Sienar Technologies based on Lianna. Also in Legends Jaemus was an Imperial fortress world and did work for Sienar, Santhe and KDY, uniting the holy trinity of Imperial Spacetech! And I am sure it was also a good reason to be based given its close to the Unknown Regions.

With all big contracts going to Dac, Corellia and others, Sienar was lucky to survive that way. KDY had it easier due to reusing capital ships happened more frequently than starfighters that are relieable on capital ships. Though KDY too got a dent from the demilitarization of Mon Mothma. Given how economic Kuat plays politics much better than Sienar, I think they agreed to demilitarization only if they got other contracts in return, be it civilian or else from the NR.

 

Huh, nu-canon A-wings are unshielded? Didn't know that.

 

So while Thrawn and the Empire try to emulate the X-Wing into various Tie-Designs... the Rebels trie to emulate Tie qualities into an A-Wing variant... turning them into suicide boats? lol