Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

No, 1-4 are, certainly. 5 is likely, but certainly big and Mon Cala. With this kind of ship recognition its a matter of getting the shape. There are particular curves and shape-form arrangements that make these ships detectable. Look at the placement of the little blisters, the larger humps etc. Furthermore, the Rise of the Resistance Trailer tipped us off about the new nose hangars. Those show up here. There may well be new classes, and in fact, I have some suspicions about some of the shapes here, especially above the green nosed gunship on the right of the "money shot".

 

I love the idea of that being the Majestic-class. In my head canon, it's a solid wedge and doesn't carry any starfighters. It has a small ventral hangar for shuttles, but the rest of it is covered with armour and weapons befitting its combat role.

 

Oh, I and I should add that you get seven MC75s in the money shot, tree in other shots as the views shift (see below) and one in the image quoted directly above, for the total of 11.



@Pons
Have at it! See what you make of these:

 

you know what's going to interesting? If Pablo Hidalgo's visual dictionary has entries for all of these ships. Good Lord.

 

Yeah, it's easy for ILM to add the Star Tours Home One model to this shot. I love the variety and hope it comes through in the battle sequence as well. ROTS was also good, but it had like one type of ship for the Republic in total. Lucas dropped the ball on not adding more capital ships there, imho.

 

This...I would have loved for Victorys and Gladiators to have been shown onscreen. Give us a well rounded Republic Fleet with carriers, destroyers and escorts.

 

Spoiler

That 21 number would be unique instances in single shots. If you frame by frame through ROTJ, and every new instance of a sighting of a Mon Cal wingless constituted a unique Mon Cal wingless, there would be 21 Mon Cal wingless. It's only to be regarded as an upper limit. What are the odds that zero of those 21 instances are duplicates of another? Not great. Also, to complicate, there are TWO closing shots of the fleet in ROTJ SE. One which got the SE CGI treatment, which Admiral Nick has circled, and one which LFL apparently did not feel was necessary to alter. ROTJ SE 02:02:50 Wedge escapes and there are 43 frames of unaltered original ROTJ 1983 fleet. ROTJ SE 02:03:05 Falcon escapes and there are 45 frames of CGI-altered / CGI-level fleet. If you bring up two players and compare the shots side by side, you'll see that LFL did attempt to (if it was a complete CGI re-do) maintain placements of some of the original ships, or, (if it was only a CGI touch-up) they had access to a better print than what we have today of the original ROTJ, because the ships look crisp, and they only had to relocate the engine lights. I would argue for the second - that LFL possesses a print of great crispness, because they did not turn the upside down wingless Mon Cals on the right side of the screen to an upright position, like the upright wingless Mon Cals on the left side of the screen. And one other complication - 21 unique ships could have been whittled down to less than 21 unique ships. It was a battle. So you could have started with 21 unique ships and ended up with a closing shot of significantly fewer. One last complication is that ILM models are photographed or shot right left-right correctness and with right-left mirroring. (Even up-down mirroring.) It is a primitive form of expanding diversity. For certain, there are left and right handed versions of the wingless Mon Cal. I do not know off the top of my head if there are right And left version of Liberty in ROTJ, itself, although I have a good feeling that Liberty is photographed with right and left handed sense. I don't remember studying if Home One has right and left handed photography.

"So from the out-of-universe perspective, did they just have three unique Calamari cruiser models that they reused for different shots, and these became our three MC80 subtypes?"
Two models were built from ground up. Home One, and the Mon Cal cruiser that is frequently called "wingless". After they got a few shots of the Wingless Mon Cal, they took it back into the ILM studio and added wings and a new paint job. Then they brought it back out and it is what survives to day as Liberty. So the place today where you can see the original Mon Cal Wingless is under the paint job and new wings of the Liberty. There are at least two quality shots in the film where the wingless is unambiguously the wingless and Not the Liberty: when Falcon's cockpit looks out onto a split second of wingless hangar, and when a wingless approaches SSD's bridge. There are two shots that match the model filming setup in the black and white photo which is the best image of the wingless: when fighters are flying over the surface of a Mon Cal and the observation stalks are obvious, and, when Wedge lures an Interceptor after him and it crashes into a Mon Cal hangar. Those are both, probably, the Mon Cal wingless. Other candidates is a possible wingless is in the background of the shot where SSD is starting to plummet while a SD gets pwned, and, when the Shuttle Tyderium leaves the fleet next to a wingless.

 

Best candidate I've seen so far.

I'm convinced by the others as Mon Cal big ships, though, and not unconvinced by this one either - that's either the appropriate hangar or a detail that looks a lot like one. Good work, @Ton_G!

This is tricky.

As Hernalt already said, there were only actually two Mon Cal ship-models in Return of the Jedi, namely the Home One, and the Liberty - but they added the wings to the Liberty model in the middle of filming, to create three different types.

We do see the "Wingless Liberty" on-screen - the most obvious footage is during the flypast before the Rebel fleet jumps to lightspeed:



The one on the left is Home One, the one on the right is the "Wingless Liberty"... you see the ship again from the side, I think, in the very next shot after this...

Then, as Hernalt has pointed out, there are several visible during the battle - notably during Wedge's dogfight with the two TIE Interceptors ("I'll take the leader") and in a previous discussion he's also mentioned another one on the left-hand side of the screen during the attack run when the Falcon leads the Rebel fleet to close with the Imperials ("We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star!"). As Admiral said above, we see a stern shot of six in the Rebel fleet at the end of the movie, albeit three are shown flying upside down (possibly this is the source of the oddly upside-down-looking configuration of the stern on some off-screen designs? )...

The Mon Calamari cruiser designations are confusing, too - originally MC80 and MC80A were used rather inconsistently for all three "Endor types" plus a significant number of other designs in the prose fiction, comics and computer-games; an explanation was eventually provided (I think this was something we formalised in WARFARE), where the basic MC80 designation was a type-name for older ships that were converted from a more "civilian" configuration, regardless of hull-form - including both the Liberty and Home One designs - while the MC80A designation was then used for ships that were built directly as warships after Mon Calla joined the Rebellion - particularly the "Wingless Liberty", but also implicitly several other types shown in non-movie material. The MC80B was always the designation for improved follow-on types produced after Endor.

Note that this system apparently DOES NOT apply in the reboot, as Home One is now an "MC80A". I'm not sure if the entire system of designations has been worked out over again...

(Just wanted to emphasise that to undercut any mistaken idea of my own importance! )

Thanks! That would definitely make the ability of the Majestic to carry a lot of firepower on a comparatively compact hull simpler to explain.

But this leads on to the question of whether Commodore Brand's Indomitable, which certainly has space for a considerable number of fighters, is actually a Majestic-class cruiser (a statement that I think is only made explicit in the Black Fleet FAQ)...

I guess there could be subtypes within the class, the normal type being a "pure brawler" that lacks hangar space, and a more complex variant which does carry fighters - just as we see the Star Destroyer Resolve, a specially modified ship which can switch all power to deflectors for drawing fire from planetary defenses, which the FAQ identifies as another Majestic-class variant, and a trio of "assault cruisers" which appear to be an unusual configuration of the cruiser or escort hull-type...

I'd agree - there's no question that the most visually interesting and sophisticated fleet of pointy space battleships in the movies is the one in ESB which has a really big command ship and two different types in the supporting fleet... but what we see in Ep. III or Ep. VI, with identical ships arranged like eighteenth-century infantry regiments, conveys a specific sort of visual message, so I can understand the choice that's being made...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

So Liberty model could have its wings attached or detached depending on what they wanted for the shot?

Also, when they say that each Calamari cruiser is unique...I always took that to mean that maybe there's some variations in the bumps on the hull or weapons emplacements, but the general hull shape would be the same for a Home One type compared to another Home One type. But if there were only two models, then as far as the movie is concerned, all the cruisers of each type actually are visually identical right?

 

Spoiler

@Thrawn McEwok I had a an Admiral Ackbar Slump of Deliverance™ recently when I was reading about Bismarck v Rodney. ROTJ novelization has "The two space armadas, like their sea-bound counterparts of another time and galaxy, sat floating, ship to ship, trading broadsides with each other in point-blank confrontation." I had had some anxiety that this ports only age-of-sail combat, where ranges were low, which reduces latitude to interpret "what Star Destroyers are / what is their isness". But now I am happy to know that the passage can also port WW2 naval engagements, at least Bismarck v Rodney, because Rodney was closing distance and therefore its fire angle was lowering towards broadside. The drawback or disadvantage being that it was losing its capability to inflict plunging fire upon Bismarck's upper decks with armor piercing shells. So what remained was an inability to accurately or forcefully go through Bismarck's monstrously thick water line belt. The net result was that Rodney was merely rearranging the metal on Bismarck's superstructure, and was not getting in any good upper cuts -below water line- sound enough to sink her. Germans subs started showing up, ticking clock, so they gave the coup de grace to Dorsetshire. Rodney couldn't get it done, and that's itself kind of echoing some Monitor Merrimack. Anyway, the passage in the novelization had a little Rodney in it.

 

Unfortunately, it was a permanent fix. LFL shot what shots they could get of the wingless model. Then they took it back into the shop and made permanent alterations to it. The Liberty is the permanent alteration to the (wingless Liberty). I find the usage """"wingless Liberty"""" to be myopically negligent of the historical order of the creation of the models, and thereby needlessly confusing. So I think of the first model as a "Freedom" class. They shot that "Freedom" class, got plenty of spare B roll (but not enough for me!), and took it back into the shop. The makeover was a totally new permanent set of wings, and a totally new permanent paint job. And that final product is now known as "Liberty", and it survives to this day. (aka, Liberty is a 'winged Freedom')

The models used in the film, of the same class, were not visibly altered between shots. The total population was fleshed out by variation in right-left v left-right sense photography, in-focus v out-focus photography, shadowed v unshadowed, saturated v unsaturated, right side up v upside down. Out-universe, the shots of a Mon Cal model should be of identical models. In-universe, it's not hard to imagine something so organic-looking having a broad diversity of local topography, in contrast with Imperial conformity.

 

I agree with you for the most part, I'm sure a few are MC80's but I doubt all the ships identified as such are actually them.

I think we'll all be surprised one way or another with what they deliver to us.

( Still firmly holding my posting on the GX1 Short Hauler for those ships)

 

The one in the upper right hand corner is either an MC80A Home One-type or another class with a VERY similar bow profile.



--Adm. Nick

 

@Pons and @Fire Dog

I'll place a $0.75 bet. All five are MC80A or the like. I think we will have others, at least MC85s, maybe something new too, but there are key similarities here that just can't be disputed very easily. #5 is the most dubitable, but even that shares enough forms. Every single ship in this picture has features that make in detectable in shape, colour and texture. Moreover, repetition is the order of the day in this shot. I think we'll get our other heavy hitters and flagship in another shot, since the MC85s are conspicuously absent. MC80As are our largest ship here (based on one estimate of #4, they may get the ~2500m treatment!, but minimum 1900m).

 

The new and upgraded MC80A (or whatever they end up calling it) very similar, but there are notable changes in proportion, aren't there? The third dorsal tier is wider and even seems to have a fourth tier above it. The ventral blisters seem to align. The angle of the new ship is pointed farther upwards, compromising a direct comparison, but the main differences remain discernible.

 

This circle can be unsquared if you note that the B&W image on left has stark lighting on the bow, and not on parts farther astern of that first major bridge/observation vertical pod, whereas the color image on right is fully lit from bow back to stern. So a silhouette of the rearmost / highest dorsal tier that is easily seen in the B&W starboard view is not easily perceived in the B&W bow view, but *might be easily perceived in the color image on right where the ship is fully lit from port. Obviously it's not going to be a perfect match, but if you imagine the viewpoint of the color image on right to be elevated by a few degrees, so that you are looking more downward upon its length than you are down upon the length of the B&W bow on left, it is not hard to imagine that the color image on right faithfully includes the rearmost / highest dorsal tier of HO. Presumably this is a CGI model built up in the same way that Falcon's mesh was built up for TFA (so that Abrams could smash it around like Bam Bam) with a high res surround scan. Why such a scan would be missing the one very visible protuberance to the immediate aft starboard of the front most third tier is hard to speculate, but it is possible it has disappeared in a slight downward perspective of a handful of degrees, as, it is a long ship.

 

Your points are well taken. However, it seems to me that the new model isn't based upon a high res scan, or if it is, it has been modified. I've added a comparison to a bow shot of Home One from ROTJ. Like our new model, it is seen from a somewhat lower vantage point than the B&W picture Nick has given us. Notice that the blisters flanking the central hump are still missing from our TROS shot. I suspect, rather, that our TROS MC80A is based upon the model from the Rise of the Resistance with its bow hangars, which are reproduced in TROS.

 

Not sure if anyone has talked about the book Resistance Reborn but there are some nice details.

Spoiler: Resistance Reborn

Corellia is under First Order control and its shipyards are now in use by the FO.

Zay Versio and Shriv return mostly empty handed from their search for allies.

The First Order is using the planet Braka ( the one in the Fallen Order trailer with the Venators ) to now disassemble New Republic ships. While on Braka the Resistance liberates a number of starfighters including T-85's.

The Resistance recruits people from all the Aftermath books as well as Wedge who is married to Norra Wexley, they both go off to find more allies.

Carlist Rieekan comes out of retirement.

 

There is zero problem here from an in-universe standpoint. It is trivial to envision a ship of that size getting refits in dock over a thirty year period. So the bow hangars could have been expended or added in 30 years, the pods next behind the forward dorsal pod could have been removed, etc. Using the ROTJ frame from lower left, it is just as fine that the retrofit included removing that forward pod sticking out to starboard. This is an appropriate level of verisimilitude with how naval ships change over time.

 

I'll add- the new CGI models of OT designs are not EXACT replicas of their physical model counterparts. Take Rogue One. The ISD-I, Neb-B, Dornean gunship, and other ships are subtlety changed to make them look more realistic/detailed, but in a manner that you can't tell unless you examine the models side by side. I have zero doubt that this vessel we are discussing is a Home One-type cruiser. Any modifications can be summed up as being CGI improvements OR upgrades to the design over the past three decades.

I really, really, REALLY hope that one of them is Home One. Pablo is writing the visual guide, I bet you that it is mentioned by name. If Aftab commands from it, I'll probably die of happiness.

--Adm. Nick

 

That's very disconcerting. reminds of the upcoming scene in The Man in the High Castle where the Nazi's are pulling down the Statue of Liberty and Melting the Liberty bell. or in SW lore, when the Empire are burning and getting rid of all trace of the Jedi. Something about reading or seeing stuff like this really turns my stomach.

 

It's too quiet!

So check this out:



One Neb-C is there. I don't think those two small capital ships to the right are CR90s, maybe the "Not Bunkerbusters"?

 

This lone Y-wing starfighter is giving me flashbacks of Arvel Crynyd and his kamikaze run against the Executor.

 

Any estimates on the Neb-BF's size? Considering all the BFs in this shot are quite far back, to me the class looks a lot larger than a frigate. Perhaps even similar in stature to an MC75.

 

Wow, great spot on that Neb-C in the background! Eagle eye indeed!

--Adm. Nick