main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lucas felt betrayed by Disney

Discussion in 'Lucasfilm Ltd. In-Depth Discussion' started by KING_KENOBI, Sep 24, 2019.

  1. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Why does that mean they can't have a gender?
     
  2. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    Physiological vs mechanical satisfies me for the distinction between human (organic) learning and robot (droid) learning. True, SW portrays humans taking on robotic extensions and robots taking on organic extensions. But did the character start as an organic being?

    Droids can be built by organic beings or other droids. They do not have DNA. They do not give birth. They do not go through childhood and then grow up into adulthood.

    Droids in SW might be capable of sex. But it is merely shallow sexual gratification with no organic or spiritual basis. Droid sex instead has a strictly mechanical basis.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  3. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    At some point, what's the difference between a personality and programming? I mean, they may be different deep down, but they both look and act virtually identical.
     
    Dawud786 likes this.
  4. AllTheSingleMaras

    AllTheSingleMaras Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2019
    I never ever said that I would have preferred a male robot. I answered YOUR accusation that I wouldn’t have had a problem with it if it was a male. My answer was that it would have been a different message, but STILL POLITICAL.

    But yes, I will give you your second point. Not the fact that I don’t enjoy seeing female empowerment, as I am a woman, but that it’s a narrative that we have seen a drastic influx of as of late. Cliches and overused tropes are a thing. Even in regards to narrative feminism/or parallel there of.
     
  5. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    (organic being) physiological and spiritual versus (droid:c3po::r2:) mechanical

    We have an internal skeleton composed of organic bone that is living tissue. Some animals have a hard exo-skeleton[face_alien].

    Droids have neither. They start with a mechanical skeleton that is not composed of organic material. Have you ever witnessed a droid giving birth in SW? Have you ever witnessed a droid in SW growing up from childhood to adulthood?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  6. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    Yeah.

    But none of that matters. If I can talk to an AI, and it feels like I'm talking to a person, then there is no longer a meaningful difference between the two. Who cares if the AI can give birth? It can certainly develop, like we've seen droids do in Star Wars.
     
  7. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    So, to clarify, you still would have had a problem with it?

    I mean it's a fairly complex philosophical issue with a lot of debate around it. The issue is far deeper than "well they weren't born by natural beings". The question needs to go to what is psychology and the soul and whether this is simply exclusive to naturally born beings.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
    Dawud786 likes this.
  8. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    But it does matter. There is always a meaningful difference.

    A droid can record its experiences in its memory banks. The droid builds up correct and incorrect reactions (and varying degrees in-between) to those experiences. But those are mechanical responses. The droid retains memories and learns from the memories. However, the learning is the result of mechanical parts (hardware and software) built by a Maker.

    Can we place a definition on soul? On spirit? On language?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  9. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    LUCAS FELT BETRAYED ABOUT DROIDS AND GENDERS AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN

    gonna go with.....no.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  10. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    Why does it matter so much to you that they're mechanical responses instead of organic? Especially when humans are basically big complex machines made out of meat? At a certain level of mechanical advancement, robots become indistinguishable from humans in terms of their capacity for emotions, and it's pretty clear that Star Wars droids are at or past that point.
     
  11. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    That's the philosophical debate (although, yes, we can easily define human language). There are, of course, arguments that human being are akin got 'organic machines'. Where do the replicants from Blade Runner fall into this for instance?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  12. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    As we speak, Lucas is offended.

    Machines can be built to produce more machines. But their will is still under the control of an organic Maker.

    I have already explained this. Makers are not simply complex machines made out of meat. If you repeat that again, it will be misleading to someone. That is dehumanizing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
    AllTheSingleMaras likes this.
  13. AllTheSingleMaras

    AllTheSingleMaras Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2019
    Again, that’s YOUR wording. My answer is that it still would have been a political message with a male robot.

    If you are asking me if I have a problem with the LBGTQ community in real life, as I think you low key are... no. No I don’t. As long as you don’t infringe on anyone else’s rights, you can do whatever you want in this life. As for film... yeah, politics keep surfacing and it’s getting tedious cause it’s SO recognizable. It lacks art and tact... THAT is my issue.

    I’m done. This is supposed to be a discussion about SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY, and instead I’m being interrogated and feel that I have to defend myself over and over so I’m not misunderstood.
     
  14. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Clam down, I was genuinely considering I may have misinterpreted what you were saying and I was prepared to apologise. If you were saying that you'd have an equal problem with both simply because they are too on the nose in the film, I was prepared to concede that I had misrepresented your point.
     
  15. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    Your feelings of interrogation are perhaps the result of someone errantly giving droids a gender.
     
    AllTheSingleMaras likes this.
  16. AllTheSingleMaras

    AllTheSingleMaras Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2019
    oh... than... I apologize for the over reaction. Truly.

    Tumblr roughed me up a couple of times. I need to learn to trust again... *holds self and shudders*
     
  17. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    They aren't though.

    Droids already have genders established. It's why they are referred to by gendered pronouns.
     
    Outsourced likes this.
  18. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    But do droids grow up? Do they breed? No? Those two things are meaningless to the argument?

    Incredible.
     
    DarthPhilosopher likes this.
  19. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    A robot can be programmed to produce further generations of robots by an original Maker. Other Makers can interfere with the work of the original Maker.

    The gendered pronouns such as he and she are superficial. A droid that responds to "he" can be reprogrammed or given updated hardware to respond to "she." It all depends on a Maker's will and intentions.

    Maturing from childhood to adulthood is absolutely relevant to the discussion. Combing DNA from parents and giving birth is also absolutely relevant. Organic beings have parents. Droids require a Maker and the Maker must be organic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  20. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    Droids absolutely do develop and mature. They're modified over time, and their personality matrix becomes more complex.

    Droids can absolutely make other droids though. We've seen it before. Hell, we literally see it in our world today.

    And here's the thing: Neither of these things have the slightest bearing when it comes to whether droids have a personality or artificial intelligence at all. It's just bs semantics with no real relevance outside of a shortsighted "Us v Them" mentality. And when the world is trending closer and closer to creating true artificial intelligence, that kind of thinking is just going to become more and more obsolete very quickly.
     
    christophero30 likes this.
  21. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    right to get this thread back to some resemblance of it's original purpose...
    and that is fine. He sold his company. The problem for me is statements in the Lucas and Kennedy vid like "George will be like my Angel on my shoulder" etc, etc when it appears she (they) had no intention of that in the first place. That's the thing that doesn't sit right. NOT the company wanting to do whatever stories they want to.
     
  22. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    I honestly think the other discussion is a lot more interesting than trying to decide which billion dollar entity to be sympathetic towards.
     
    Emperor Ferus likes this.
  23. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    good to know, you should make a thread on that.
     
    wobbits and AllTheSingleMaras like this.
  24. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Yes, their will can be 'hacked' as it were, but this doesn't change the fact that the issue of whether they have 'psychology' (which I'm not entirely sure is a good criteria) or a 'soul' akin to a human is a much more complex issue. I don't know why you're presenting with such certainty when this is a very complex upon which some of the most intelligent people in the world disagree.
     
    Dawud786 likes this.
  25. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    Fair.