PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

Even if the Databank's statements are sometimes unreliable, one of the newest novels (Force Collector) shows Sifo-Dyas actually stating that he'd ordered the clone army, in his distress call when the Pykes are attacking his ship. The protagonist of the novel finds the recording:


"This is Master Sifo-Dyas, en-route to the desert moon that orbits Oba Diah. I'm with ... with - Silman, flying emergency survival capsule number 775519, and our long-range transmitter has been knocked out. We're under attack by the Pykes, and I'm preparing to jettison this project in hopes that it will be found, and-"

[static]

"And the truth is, we won't make it out of this alive. If that's the case, so be it. But there are things that mustn't be lost. This is what it's come to - and I want ... | want everyone to understand that I've done my best. Some may disagree with my methods, but these are desperate times and someone, somewhere should know: as you are aware, I have seen a vision of the future that I feel warrants an army. You've disagreed with me, but I felt I had no choice. Therefore I have ordered one: a clone army from the Kaminoans. Something must be done, and I have made that decision. It may haunt me, and-"

[static]

"or then again, maybe I won't have to live with that decision very long at all."

"Hurry - we can't take another hit like that!"

"Come find me!"

 

I think we're going to find out Darth Sidious in the guise of Sifo-Dyas met with the Kaminoas at least once after Sifo-Dyas was killed to finalize plans for the Clone Army and complete the order.

Sifo-Dyas started the process of ordering the army but it in the end Darth Sidous appearing as Sifo-Dyas that completed it.

 

That's not completely out of the question, true. I like the implication that Sifo-Dyas knows that what he's done is morally wrong and that he thinks it may haunt him.

 

Yet at the same time, Sifo-Dias has so much faith in his visions he also feels it is for the greater good. They'll thank him someday.

 

I find myself imagining his voice as a little like Sybok's in ST V: The Final Frontier, with the "these are desperate times" bit.

 

WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME

 

Don't say it three times in a row or Dr. McCoy's father dies again.

 

Not sure the policy for info no the Sequel Trilogy so I'll make this a spoiler post. This comes from a new teaser trailer released this afternoon for The Rise of Skywalker.

Spoiler: Speculation on Sifo-Dyas from Rise of Skywalker Trailer

In a new trailer released a week before The Rise of Skywalker arrives in theaters we hear the voice of Darth Sidious become the voice of Snoke and then the voice of Darth Vader. Is this our first evidence that Darth Sidous could pose as other individuals? That he could appear as Sifo-Dyas? I'm not saying Sifo-Dyas had no part in ordering the army. But that Darth Sidoius posing as Sifo-Dyas completed the order after Sifo-Dyas died.

 

A few confusing questions:

Sifo-Dyas, of his own free will, placed an order for a clone army which Sidious later hijacked/impersonated for his own purposes?

So Sidious, in no way, manipulated Sifo-Dyas into placing this order? Only his visions were the source of Sifo-Dyas' action here?

 

There's always the "Sidious can plant false visions" possibility - but yes, Sifo-Dyas chose to act on his visions by placing the order.

 

For what it's worth, in the Darth Plagueis novel, Senator Palpatine (and Dooku, if I recall?) had some discussions with Sifo-Dyas about his visions, and mentioned the idea of clone armies and Kamino to him. So, he had his own visions, but it was Palpatine who nudged him towards acting on them and in a specific way.

 

To be fair, the Darth Plagueis novel is Legends. Still, it's interesting that both Legends and newcanon have Sifo-Dyas actually place the order.

 

This I can see for otherwise, it seems to be too large of a coincidence. Considering the eventual role the GAR would play in his plans and later being the military foundation of his Empire, I find it slightly incredulous that Palpatine, perceived as a master manipulator, would leave it to mere chance (crossing fingers as it were) that Sifo-Dyas would feel compelled to act in that manner in response to any Force visions.

 

This thread is a very cool read

 

Took them all long time but thanks to force collector only a few pieces are missing in this 18 year old puzzle

 

What does Force Collector tell us? That Sifo-Dyas did indeed place the order for the army himself.

What questions are left? Who implemented the control chips? How did Tyranus become involved and when? How much of this plan was Palpatine?

 

Posted a version of this elsewhere before, but just thought I'll post it here also after reading the quote from Force Collector in this thread:
I recently became interested in piecing together a story of Sifo-Dyas where everything that was narrated literally happened unless explicitly contradicted in the films (that is, it was really Sifo-Dyas who ordered the clone army, etc.; one doesn't assume that there are smokescreens all over the place). It's a fascinating idea to explore the extremes of "what if everything were planned out" vs "what if everything happened due to the uncoordinated actions of different people"? There's a certain tragedy in the latter which I think is no less powerful than the former, especially as it gives agency to a wider group of people.

Anyone interested in piecing together such a version of the story together in this thread?

 

But why male models?

 

I now look forward to reading Labyrinth of Evil and Plagueis novels. Even though they are part of Legends, they seem to give great insight into this Sifo Dyas mystery. I really want to listen to the Dooku audio book as well.
I feel the Dyas story is more interesting in that he was in league with rogue Jedi. Be it Qui Gon and Dooku and whoever else. They helped him quench his visions by researching where and who to advise for a creation of a clone army. At this point Dyas is the one who places the order with (stolen funds?) Dooku' s $ and then Dooku, who is talks with Sidious, has the Pykes shoot down his friends ship and they give him the body as proof, which Dooku takes to Felucia. Would have been fascinating if Dooku was just a rogue Jedi who placed the order and left the Jedi but not joining the Sith. He wields a blue or green saber and we never really believe him until it's too late..Anakin beheads him when he really was trying to capture Sidious all along.

 

I know the EU has fiddled around with the story a bit but just from AOTC it’s pretty clear that the Sith had Sifo-Dyas killed and then used his name to order the Clone Army. Obi-wan thinks Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered because he was. The council can’t prove that for a fact because obviously the Sith have done their best to cover their tracks. The Kaminoans give away too much of the truth to be in on it which also tells me that Obi-wan finding them was not part of the Sith’s plan. Now it’s fair to assume there was something about Sifo-Dyas that made him a good candidate so that the Jedi don’t immediately go “there’s no way that guy would have ordered a secret army behind our back”, but I think the idea that he had a well-known army creating obsession is pushing it a little much for my tastes.

ETA: Jango also name drops Tyrannus which means I don’t think he knows that he and Dooku are the same person any more than the Jedi do.

 

Yes, that's correct. TCW reveals that "something" that didn't make the Jedi immediately exclude the possibility that Sifo-Dyas could have placed the order, which is that he had a vision of the future that he revealed to the council. Something that Dooku would be aware of and could use for his own purposes.

The rest corroborates what's implied in AOTC. The Sith killed Sifo-Dyas so that they could use his identity to order the army.

 

The Wookiepedia articles for Sifo-Dyas made his whole relation to the Clone army seem fairly uncomplicated. I can't recall ever being confused by the reference in AOTC, so, I never thought it was that confusing of a side-plot? Still reading through the thread, but have they otherwise complicated it?

 

The complication, in both Legends and Newcanon (but possibly not in George Lucas's headcanon), is that any masquerading as him, was done after he made contact with the Kaminoans and placed the order, not before.

Legends source for this - Labyrinth of Evil.
Newcanon sources for the- the Databank, and Force Collector.

So the Sith didn't masquerade as him to place the order itself - they masqueraded as him to take over the project - and do things like convince the Kaminoans to add mind control chips.

 

In The Star Wars Archives 1999–2005, Lucas said that Sifo-Dyas had been a Sith apprentice training under Darth Sidious. As a Sith apprentice, he had placed the order for the clone army, making this fully part of the Sith plan to destroy the Jedi.

This was probably something Lucas locked down by the end of TCW, since there is a Q&A clip with the show’s producers where they’re asked about Sifo-Dyas and they discuss how Sidious likely bent the Rule of Two by having more than one apprentice at a time for brief periods.

I think it’s likely that Sidious corrupted both Dooku and Sifo-Dyas at around the same time, directly or indirectly pitting them and Maul against one other with the intention of having only one remain as his Sith apprentice.

How well does this gel with what others had been discussing regarding this mystery?