Discussion Diversity In the New Saga [See OP Warning]

It's not systematic in 2020?Huh. I guess you really believe that.

 

Thanks.

 

sure, I’ve learned a lot from that thread

 

It's a really great thread

 

Demonstrable, so yeah, not a matter of "belief".

 

Psh, Conan would agree. Maybe not Conan-but-not-really-Conan Red Sonja Conan, but real Conan's above buying what the everyone's-default-setting-is-victim peeps are selling. Meme it up as you will good sir.

 

Thats not quite true, even though I agree with most of your point. Bashar al-Assad is a member of the minority Alawite ethnic group in Syria, and he and his Alawite compatriots have implemented systematic racism against other minority and majority ethnic groups. Another glaring example was the minority white government in South Africa, who obviously implemented massively systematic racism in the form of apartheid. There are tyrannies of the minority out there, based on some minority groups successfully seizing the reins of political power in certain societies, even though tyrannies of the majority are more common.

Dude, the far right, who has been building its political power in part on open expressions of racism through speech and policies (such as the racist Italian language citizenship laws the last coalition government dominated by the Lega implemented), is in power in a number of countries throughout Europe, and acolytes of the same perspective sit in the White House, such as Stephen Miller. Viktor Orban is the openly racist head of the EU member state, Hungary, as another example. Poland, Austria, the AfD in Germany, etc. There is some serious racism on the rise in the world. That’s a fact, not a matter of opinion. And that’s saying nothing about persistent systematic racism at the sub-national level in a number of developed democracies that preceded this new aggressive and vocal form of racism, which clearly builds on/ exploits existing racism under the surface.

You can certainly disagree about the policy solutions to systematic racism. I have minority acquaintances that believe affirmative action does more harm than good by stigmatizing their success, for example. I disagree, but I respect their right to disagree with me on the solutions to systematic racism.

But denial of systematic racism is akin to climate denial. It’s just factually untrue.

 

dp

 

And had jack-all to do with the movie the gif's from, so...

Bor, I wouldn't exactly deem Hungary developed-first-world-western. They're not Syria or Rwanda, no, but pretty clearly they've got some work to do.

Austria, Poland, Germany though? Give me a break, those Nazi parties with their slight uptick in voter base aren't "the system" and you know it. They're a minority of loud crazies running around preaching to their choir of fellow crazies. Germany & Austria for one have some pretty world-class anti-hatred/racism laws on the books, taking things further than most. They enforce them pretty damn well. Merkel's been about as generous as it gets with accepting huge numbers of migrant in recent years, taking far more than just about anyone else.

I dunno. As a black freakin' Jew I just cannot stand when these terms get thrown around so lightly. "Systematic" racism is goddamn apartheid & pre-1970s USA, not what we've got going on anywhere developed today. Words matter and have connotations. It's offensive.

 

@Aximili86

well, the race relations thread I linked to on the last page has plenty of examples, all the time from the present, of systemic racism

 

What are you referring to, the middle-school thing? He's talking about the 50s.

I'm not reading through 600+ pages to find what you're putting out there, but that's the one on that page. He's talking past tense. What he's talking about doesn't happen now.

 

@Bor Mullet: Matthew Arnold described something called functional majorities. Even if they are a minority in number, they are a majority in terms of economic and political power. So conceptually they still function as a majority does, and as you pointed out well above, can institute racist policies.

Sociology and political science in fact define racism this way: as something only a majority is capable of. It is a power concept: those in power are the only ones capable of racist policy, i.e., of racism.

This is the technical, academic definition of racism and it's never merely thought of as prejudice or bias, which any group is capable of.

 

Hey, you cite it, be specific. Nobody's reasonably going to be expected to read an entire 600-page thread - list the pages and I'll go through no problem.

Also, heh, "claim". Jesus Christ.

 

Ax, you’re drawing on information from the 90s, man. These political parties and voices are no longer marginal subcultures. They dominate coalition governments, retain 90+ seats in parliaments, and drive moderate parties to adopt racist policies in order to try to head them off. The far-right Mussolini-quoting Salvini was only recently booted out of a coalition government in Italy for a political miscalculation, but is expected to come roaring back (and is using the coronavirus crisis to hate-monger his way back to power). The far right is making huge gains in Scandinavia, including in Sweden, and has obviously played a big role in upending British and EU stability. The Greens in Austria entered into a disgusting alliance with the far right in order to gain power, which makes essentially neofascists kingmakers in Austria. The AfD in Germany is growing fast. Ignoring these trends is precisely why so many democracies were caught off guard before WWII. It’s crazy to repeat that blindness. They need to be fought off - persistently and loudly. Otherwise we’ll allow the slow creep of fascism to be successful, where the Big Bang of fascism in the 20th century wasn’t. And if you think it’s offensive to make these comparisons, Jewish organizations like HIAS and the Holocaust Museum are some of the leading voices in warning about the similarities between the language and policies of the lead-up to WWII, and what we’re seeing now. It may seem too subtle for you to accept at the moment, from this side of the pond (though I can’t understand why, as Trump is pretty overt about it), but it just isn’t true that the far right is marginal. They have lots of politicsl power in lots of developed democracies. That’s a stone cold fact.

 

Firstly I'm not sure why you're putting Poland and Hungary in two different categories. They are relatively similar in terms of development, and now, unfortunately, in social policy. So, yeah, there is definitely systematic racism in those two countries.

As for what we typically consider 'first world Western countries', while it's subtle, less overt, and may not literally be expressed in the law of the country, yes, there is systematic racism. Systematic racism isn't just what the lawmakers put in legislation and regulations - it's the disproportionate affect certain policies may inadvertently have upon minority communities. It's also the unconscious biases of the majority which often occupy the 'system' - so the prejudice towards minorities which, while may be unconscious and not necessarily malicious, still make up a 'systematic' oppression of minority communities.

 

I've never been hassled due to color, Texas & California alike. A majority of the cops in, say, NYC, are majority-minority, if that even makes sense. Institutional, no. Outliers, yes.

Regarding all the "disproportionate" stuff, tell that to Appalachia or New Hampshire if you're talking drugs. If you're talking major cities, guys like Bloomberg are actually right - the drugs & guns are disproportionately in poor minority communities hence the further police attention. Where are they going to frisk people for weapons, Manhattan? God no, the gun/knife crime there is like once a year tops. They're going to the hood. That's not necessarily racism., that's practicality and common sense.

By a police force that, at least now, is majority non-white, 10 years ago Bloomberg era likely close-to.

 

Fair enough, chief.

Nobody "doesn't want to read" it though, simply asking for the pertinent points. Apparently that's unreasonable, whatever.