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Senate What kind of dirty leftie are you?

Discussion in 'Community' started by Outsourced, May 6, 2020.

?

What flavor of leftie are you?

  1. Centrist Marxism

    25.0%
  2. Eco-Anarchism

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Democratic Socialism

    26.9%
  4. Eco-Marxism

    11.5%
  5. Council Communism

    7.7%
  6. Anarcho-Communism

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Market Anarchism

    5.8%
  8. Orthodox Marxism

    1.9%
  9. Left-Wing Nationalism

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Left Communism

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. Social Democracy

    13.5%
  12. Utopian Socialism

    7.7%
  13. Marxism-Leninism

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    This conversation took off while I was away, but to respond to several of your points at once:

    1) It's true that my interpretation of the word suffering was more about people not having their needs met as opposed to people not having luxuries. The latter, of which, is entirely acceptable but the former, to me, definitely isn't. I agreed with the comment that cars should be given up for mass transit, but I'm far, far from going down the anprim road. Especially because right now, we have industrialization happening in the third world, where for the first time in history developing countries (which are largely filled with nonwhite people) will have access to the quality of life and standard of living that white people have been having for the last century. And now, you have under the guise of environmentalism, people demanding that those countries not industrialize despite the fact that western countries already harmed the environment in their industrialization. It's....unjust to demand a group of people historically living a worse quality of life to keep doing so because of impending doom. And we're always asking the underprivileged to do this.

    2) Environmentalists tend to have a ideology that minimizes the worth of a human life. The fact is, to me, an animal life is not worth more than a human life. In the trolley problem where a human is on one track and Fluffy is on the other, that trolley is running over Fluffy. I'm aware that makes me a bad person in the eyes of PETA and teenage girls everywhere, but I just don't view nature as more important than man. Environmentalists do. Whether it's regular environmentalists, eco-Fascists, or eco-Marxists, and it bothers me because if you're a leftist and you're not one because you believe in the dignity and worth of all people, why are you a leftist at all? It reminds me of an argument I had with freaking RenegadeCut of all people because of a video he made where he said that humans shouldn't colonize space even if we can't live on Earth anymore because we'll just bring our problems to other planets and we'd be ruining them. Humans should just die out if we ruin our planet. I think that viewpoint is abhorrent and I strongly challenge the leftist credentials of anyone who thinks that it's acceptable. The planet is not worth more than people. Nature is not worth more than people. Those who place the lives of animals above people are not leftists. They're fascists.
     
  2. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    His policies are Social Democratic. He's definitely in the overlap between Social Democrats And Democratic Socialists.

    Apart from creating, as flawed as they are, the modern Western European states.

    If you're going to blame social democrats in some arbitrary way for Hitler, then why not Lenin for the failure that was the USSR and all the suffering it brought in it's failing. The best thing to happen to socialism is the collapse of the USSR.

    No I realise in what way you were comparing them. I simply think there is a limit to how much can be excused by context. Suspending habeas corpus in a time of war is a lot different than the summary murder of people who aren't revolutionaries. I think that most Social Democrats in hindsight wouldn't support Ebert's actions in ordering the death of the leaders of the Spartacus Uprising. In contrast you seem to be half endorsing what Lenin did. I also don't think there is this massive divide between ordering the murder of 'fellow revolutionaries' and ordering the murder of other non-combatants and prisoners generally. In fact I see both as very heinous.

    No I realise that. I was just pointing out that you seem to be very hostile to his general ideology here, but seem to be far for supportive of the man as a person.

    No I don't think so. Social democrats adapt to the material conditions and the social democratic platform will adapt as material conditions change.

    Bernie is from the tradition of the Labour/SocialDemcoratic/DemocraticSocialist coalition. The Labour Party of Britain and the SPD, etc. That's definitely where Bernie fits with the history of left-wing thought. Social democrats also supported the Sandinistas. I'm not sure why you are painting social democracy with the Ebert-brush since it's not really that reflective of the ideology.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
  3. a star war

    a star war Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 4, 2016
    People are incapable of surviving without nature. In that sense nature is worth more than an individual's comfort. Certain things need to be curtailed and maintained, and some of those things require a bit of sacrifice, which will result in the betterment of everyone. In that way, I think I am approaching it from a perspective of putting human life first, in that human life is incapable of continuing should industrialization continue to ramp up.

    And, in fact, I am not saying developing nations should not industrialize, but am saying that the western world needs to deindustrialize. People in the west currently go about their lives in such a way that, if everyone on the planet did the same, it would be destroyed. That's doesn't mean I think developing nations don't deserve a higher quality of life, it means I think the west is currently living above the quality of life that anyone should be living wrt waste, ecological impact, and pollution. At this point, the brunt of sacrifice and "suffering" (to use the term extremely liberally, considering the protests Americans are currently performing because they aren't able to access every good and service they think they need at this very moment and would say they are suffering) needs to be placed on the western world. Developing nations contribute far less to the deterioration of the planet than those that are already developed, and it is the west that ultimately needs to make the most drastic changes to lifestyle.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
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  4. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I genuinely don't see how a developed nation can de-industrialize without severely lowering the quality of life for the people in it. Chances are, you'd end up with two classes if people: a small group who gets the higher standard of living, and the masses living in anarcho-primitivism.
     
  5. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Yeah, on that MIT Moral Machine test, I'm running over animals every time. I'll run over a dozen cats to save one bank robber.
     
  6. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    I am not entirely sure of that in all cases. I need to read up more on Neozapatismo, but far as I found they have minimal industrial jobs. They do export, particularly with coffee co-ops. I cannot speak to how well this is working out for them since they are still a state in Mexico and being ****ed over by NAFTA.

    On a world scale or even nation scale I think deindustrialization is not preferable, but I am not against libertarian states like that, I honestly think if we even got a revolution here, a new Omaha like location for Native Americans functioning like the Zapatista's would be great.

    I mean they sell $44 million of goods shipped internationally each year, all run through worker co-ops. This would not at all work for a nation, or even work for them in a vacuum, but it doesn't have to be a vacuum. Look at Sankara focusing back on internal agriculture so they stopped relying on colonizers for food. Then when they produced so much more than they needed to feed themselves, they gave to their neighbors and had massive amounts of workers from other nations work for them. Transforming into a kind of socialist breadbasket. That required industrial might to ship stuff of course, but not all the nations involved needed to deindustrialize in order for each to become self-sustaining in time.

    Course that to we cannot fully know the results of cause France butchered Thomas Sankara

    that is a false dichotomy. Anarcho-primitivism is not the only course aside from industrialized leftism. There are options. I don't get the romanticization of co-ops and more libertarian economies; but I am not opposed to indigenous groups having essentially oblasts. They produce importing agricultural products, so long as you assist them in shipment and processing then they could be more than second class citizens
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
  7. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I think that this incorrectly assumes that 'industrialisation' is inherently analogous to the way that we (the West) industrialised and how countries are currently industrialising. With a willingness to technologically shift how our industrial society functions there wouldn't be a need to 'deindustrialise'.
     
  8. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Just fiddling around, I can apparently turn into a leftcom by just tweaking my answers to three party affiliation questions, an orthodox Marxist by only adjusting one slightly. Those proximity measurements are pretty solid based on the parameters of the test. My next closest match is anarcho-communism but there's like a 30% compatibility dropoff, which makes sense because I'm all-in on the dictatorship of the proletariat. Kind of interesting.

    Also the more I take the quiz the more I hate that "workers council or trade unions" question. It seems to be conflating the two, which for some theorists (who are awesome (do not @ me)) is a big no-no. It'll be interesting to see if they eventually change that.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
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  9. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    I’m not a great match with any of the categories from their descriptions, so just sharing the results first:
    https://leftvalues.github.io/results.html?a=42.6&b=67.6&c=48.3&d=66.1&e=57.7&f=37.5&g=26.5

    [​IMG]

    It says the closest match is Centrist Marxism, but after reading the description I don’t think I’m nationalist and neither does the test either.

    Ideally Anarcho-Communism would be the goal (though still have private property, and decentralized means of production more than collective ownership) but we need to do many other things on a social, political, economic, and technological level first (which definitely need a more international approach and likely more centralized approach) and I wasn’t answering the questions with the long-term end-goal in mind.

    Also my answers would probably have looked very different from the day before Trump’s election in November 2016 to now. And might change again this November.

    What’s the difference between Council Communism and Anarcho Syndicalism?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
  10. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    To put it really shortly: whether or not they're Marxists.

    To put it less shortly: councilists believe that capitalism will only be overcome by workers organizing themselves into local committees that are independent of specific factories or jobs (in contrast to trade unions) and these councils then banding together to overthrow the bourgeois status quo and establishing a new government based around the coordination of these organizations. Syndicalists believe capitalism will be overcome by similar organizational methods but you can then immediately leap to having no more state. If it sounds kind of subtle, it is kind of subtle. Noam Chomsky thinks they should get along swell! Councilists think Noam Chomsky should go **** himself. No one can agree on whether or not you need a coordinated party to pull this off! And so the endless waltz continues. :p

    Edit: Oh, and it's worth mentioning - both currents barely exist these days, so it's a largely academic argument. Syndicalism has mostly folded into the anarcho-communist milieu, councilism when expounded upon at all is basically the more conservative branch of the ultraleft. Like a lot of leftist labeling there's a hell of a lot of LARP.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
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  11. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    shocked I am the farthest party person thus far, same with centralization though those two do make sense
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
  12. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    D :
     
  13. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Yeah I haven't a clue what I was thinking, closer but strangely several people got more party but the test said neutral
     
  14. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Don't you openly identify as an ML? Shouldn't it be not at all shocking? :p
     
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  15. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    eh more Leninist but I say ML so tankies don't kill me, or really just cause leninist is not really a thing in common vernacular. I wish there was a word for chavisimo that rolls off the tongue better frankly. I only got like 67% or something ML so I guess I am a fake Marxist-leninist. I think it might have to do with ML often being used just generally as "USSR" but as Lenin was one to point out, they had specific material needs and comrades should adapt to what their country needs and not just use pablum and checklists. Hence that quote on the IRA I used earlier

    I am not shocked I got what I did, rather I am just surprised by where exactly the quiz decides "party" happens instead of neutral. I was expecting more centralists not gonna lie

    I just expected better from all ye libs ;)
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
  16. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    I got a very waffle-y score which I think accurately represents the current state of my good ol' infantile camp quite nicely. :p

    "Gilles, how do you feel about central planning?"
    "Well, Bordiga said it was necessary, but Mattick said it was antithetical to Marxism, so in conclusion it's impossible to say whether it's good or not. That'll be 13 euro to cover printing costs."
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
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  17. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    We need new theories. Where are my Zizekists and Chomskyites? Honestly though I think we are seeing why there was a need for figureheads. Much as we oppose the great man hypothesis, we have few leaders today, let alone ones writing theory. Xi is state capitalist and thankfully *most) leftists understand that, Maduro has not written much and does not attempt the charisma of Chavez, few revolutionaries in the spotlight like Fidel.

    Hopefully the Rojava leaders who are alive will write some theory that will get mass produced. More emphasis on indigenous theorists as well, ie Lula and Evo should be given more international acknowledgement as leaders. Where is our Jaures?
     
  18. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Man Abdullah Öcalan wrote like eight books and they all boil down to "Google Murray Bookchin." :p The best current theoretical writing for my money is coming out of the Chuang collective and they're anonymous of necessity since they operate out of China. But I'm not sure we need fresh figureheads so much as good old fashioned discontent.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
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  19. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    See, I'm kind of torn on that. We're in the age of Anonymous and WikiLeaks. Many movements now are completely decentralized with no prominent figures. I mean, just look at the Chuang collective you mentioned. Entirely anonymous, but still influential through their work. So when things all do come to a head, will it be the result of new leaders, or just a barrage of smaller local actions, either in an electorate sense or a revolutionary one?
     
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  20. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I agree with the idea of needing charismatic leaders, but I don't like the idea of ideologies being formed around the thoughts of single individuals. It inevitably leads to people like Lenin who treat theorists as holy people.

    Chomsky for one would hate this.
     
  21. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    I think the latter statement hits upon what I am really wistful about, that being a response to the growing discontent, or rather praxis. previously you had active revolutions or fresh faces on the world stage cause things were changing. Not even just in the Cold War, Chavez was after that importantly. There are movements like protests in Chile and Ecuador, but democratic socialists are mostly the representatives on the world stage and what do they get? coups and being arrested or chased out. Rojava is a collective and that made them work, but now we are seeing the problem of not having propaganda and an international face. People are either trying electoralism and getting thrown out, or are lying low as revolutionaries like the Zapatistas.

    Figures like Sankara inspire and while they can be killed, they live on. We saw something close with Lula, we just need to take that further cause we saw what that rallying cry could do. Bolivia may be heading to some really tragic escalations of violence when this is over, but there is no way Morales will join a civil war IMO, which is good. A generation of Allendes seems to be ending with his fate. I worry decentralized movements may lead to just chaotic violence when the crisis does reach its zenith.

    Or we do a 4th international, I nominate Ramza as leader
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
  22. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    What do I look like, a newspaper editor?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
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  23. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    I found some of the options to be a little too “binary;” but according to the results, I’m somewhere between a Market Anarchist and a Democratic Socialist.
     
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  24. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Going by your avatar, yes.
     
  25. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Is this not you?
    [​IMG]