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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Luke Skywalker/Mark Hamill Discussion Thread [SEE WARNING ON PAGE 134]

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    While I don't think it was fully RJ's intention for us to listen to Kylo Ren, JJ did seem a lot more sentimental in his approach to his two entries.
    TROS seemed to be about acknowledging and respecting what came before in order to forge a different path forward.

    Besides, Yoda in TLJ seemed to be saying similar.

    The lines about fear, I thought were applicable to the other films. And the bookend of Ben Solo returning home symbolically in place of his grandfather, who never was able to reunite with his wife and mother.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2020
  2. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2013
    I would be much more interested in the themes of the films if they actually went anywhere. TLJ tosses all of its themes out pretty much by the third act and just about every character looks terrible or is spouting off nonsense as a theme. I honest dont’t know what Themes are supposed to be TROS since it’s such a mash of stuff thrown together that it’s barely coherent. Not sure if there was any theme or point to Luke in TROS besides trying to make him more like able post TLJ.
     
  3. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    It's a good thing it isn't a lousy movie then.
     
  4. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    He was amazing, as was Driver.
    Ive seen Oscar winners that weren't as good.
     
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  5. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I think it's not well written. Others may see it similarly. Is it wrong to think that?
     
  6. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I think Hamill's performance in the ST (specifically TLJ) was 'impeccable', but is by no means superior to his performance in the OT... not by a long stretch... primarily because the OT, and Luke's character, is substantially better written and better understood. Luke Skywalker is the emotional centre of the entire OT. In the ST he is an aside...

    These things aren't mutually exclusive of course, one can give achieve a good performance despite a poorly written character. For me, the best two moments in the entire ST is the one you call out (Luke and R2) and the Luke and Leia scene (both from TLJ). It's the only two moments, in the entire ST, where I genuinely feel a sense of emotion.... primarily because Hamill's acting in those scenes is coming from a genuine place i.e. Hamill's emotional connection to his character, R2 and Carrie Fisher. And that's the thing that many don't apprecite about Hamill's performance in the OT, he's totally committed to the scenes/dialogue.... even the cheesy dialogue.
     
  7. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    No?
     
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  8. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    'Kill the past' is a theme, to be sure, but it's made inseparable from 'kill the past is an idiotic and evil attitude' theme.

    Palpatine killed the past once (the jedi order and the republic), and used lies, and Anakin, to that end.

    Ben Solo was Palpatine's involuntary subcontractor in that arena, and Palpatine made sure he remained so for 30 years, until -almost literally- the last minute. Kylo Ren was just the final and murderous aspect of that subcontractor, one the OT3 could not turn against easily.
     
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  9. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    I think Mark Hamill’s performance was excellent just like everything he’s ever been in
     
  10. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2012
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
  11. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I'm not sure anyone here (or elsewhere) is disputing Hamill's performance in the ST... it's the writing of his character that people don't like. Re. Hamill 1977-1983. He was as good as anyone in the OT... and, as a 20 something actor, he was as easily as good as Daisy Ridley is now. No one was EVER going to replace Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker in a sequel... unless he'd turned the role down possibly.
     
  12. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Now that I agree with.
     
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  13. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Yeah, I don't think they would have recast the role, even if he had turned it down - they'd just write him out.

    As for Hamill in the OT, I think he's really underrated in it. His performance is the main reason we truly believe Yoda is real. A lesser actor wouldn't be able to sell only acting against a muppet for several weeks.
    However, I do think his best performance as Luke is in TLJ - it's a more mature performance, with more nuance than before. That's not saying I like the role better in the ST (I don't), I just think Hamill has grown as an actor in the thirty-something years between the films (And he still makes me believe Yoda is real. :) ).
     
  14. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    This was my thought - I don't think it's his best ever performance because of the writing.

    Absolutely agree on this. The ability of Mark to sell Yoda makes Yoda real and Empire would not work at all if he hadn't done that. Plus, he did not get nearly enough credit for becoming a swordsman for Empire and Jedi, while they were all swooning over DeNiro in Raging Bull learning to box.
     
  15. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I agree. For me, Hamill's best performance is (unquestionably) contained within the OT (although I understand TCF-1138's view that Hamill is arguably a better actor now). However, I still think Hamill's performance in TLJ is better than the other performances within the ST.... including Ford, Fisher Ridley et al... with the notable exception of Driver (as he is given the better material in the ST).
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  16. Fin McCool

    Fin McCool Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2015
    I think the key to understanding the ST we got is understanding that the subject of Luke Skywalker was viewed with fear. That dated to Arndt, who was quoted as saying he couldn't finish Kira/Rey's journey convincingly because everyone would pale in comparison to Luke every time he showed up. (All of which, within those constraints, makes me think the ultimate reveal at the end of TFA perhaps should have been that Rey journeys with the lightsaber to meet a Force Ghost.)
     
  17. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    And they should have asked themselves why that was the case. This was hardly gonna be the first story in movie history with a passing-of-the-baton story. So them going "we tried but we just can`t think of a way to do it" is just a pathetic excuse.

    JJ pawned the problem of because he just made Luke the McGuffin in the first movie. Then RJ went the opposite route and overburdened the character with some "arc" that took up lots of screentime and didn`t do anything to let their lead shine either. I mean, it didn`t help that she was pawned off to a "aww, is it twu wuv" story with the villain. Then JJ came back and went "phew, bullet dodged, he is now dead so FG cameo it is".

    And really, if your problem in a movie with old and new characters is that somehow you think the new character is just continuously being overshadowed if you feature the old characters positively, then maybe ponder if the problem isn`t actually with the old characters but the new ones. And then go about writing them with more panache. By which I don`t mean video game leveling up and easy victories. Because doing that is one of the reason a character is not up to par. It`s boring.

    Performance-wise, I think MH was good in TLJ but the story and the execution of the actual scenes were just so unpleasant to me, it doesn`t help any. (I also don`t think TLJ was any visual feast either, Ahch-To and the first temple there was just so mundane and lacked any sense of atmosphere or mysticism. And that is all directorial to me.) Sure, he was very green in ANH but honestly, so was Luke so that worked out well. He could do earnest well and that was teenage Luke in the movie a lot. I think he was improved by Empire and ROTJ.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  18. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Good point re: Hamill selling Yoda in TESB that was indeed his best performance in the OT - I think I was more referring to ANH as that was as green as you can get but still far superior to Anakin in EP1 and 2......
     
  19. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
  20. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    I think this problem's made worse by the fact that the way Luke was handled ultimately overshadowed Rey anyway because there's very little to her story that's substantive.
     
  21. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    It's notable that Luke's been offered his father's lightsaber already. In a vision, and in a comic, and by a woman ('follow your destiny', she says)but that's how Maz' 'story for another time', that lightsaber's journey, seems to begin. Shortly after Bespin.
    According to Hidalgo, the temple was someone else's idea for him...maybe that's a part of him throwing the saber in TLJ. Not again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  22. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Like imagine if Rey was less an analogue for Luke and was more sassy and roguishly charming, like a mix of Han and Leia, as far as personalities go. I think that could've been fun.
     
  23. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Or just more aloof and brutal which kind of makes sense given that she lives in a hellhole like Jakku with no real guardians to speak of.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  24. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Yeah, that is the ultimate sour note if you didn’t like Luke’s story but were entering the film hopeful about the others characters - that most of the real meat of the story *is* his story, so there’s not a lot going on outside of it that is substantive. He’s got the most dynamic character arc of the film, his internal conflict is the only one that really gets fleshed out in a clear way that makes some internal sense, and yeah, anytime he’s on screen with another character, the writing (Not juts Hamill’s acting) is really set to make sure he dominates the screen. I don’t think it’s actually that good of a story, but it’s still more substantial than what the other characters have.

    ...Also, if I can be honest, I don’t really think Hamill’s giving a better performance in TLJ.

    I think it’s more that he’s got a more conventional “Seriously Dramatic!” arc - the kind that are often recognized as “critic bait.” It’s centered around darker mature emotions throughout, and that’s often something that some people just automatically regard as more “artistic” than other “genres” of acting. It relies on digging around for nuance in what’s often otherwise a rather bland pit of despair - the actor plays someone who’s sad or discontent, and it’s about them generating multiple shades of sad and discontent.

    The thing is... that doesn’t really impress me anymore. Oh, individual actors can impress me, but writing can and should embrace a wider set of emotions, and Tragedy should not be regarded as a superior art form... particularly since it just as often slides into pretension and melodrama.

    I’d regard Hamill’s performance in ROTJ as easily equal or greater than his TLJ performance. The same amount of nuance is there, it’s just spread across a wider range of emotions, and Hamill demonstrates an ability to mix a mature warrior with a still emotional young man that can share the screen with other character without anyone of them overwhelming each other. Part of my issue with Hamill’s TLJ role is that the writing demands he be the center of attention - as an actor, that’s great, but in a storytelling sense, it’s actually a bit of a liability for the film.
     
  25. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Hamill's performances, in ESB and especially ROTJ, were great. I am not a fan of TLJ but he was great in that as well performance wise imo. He didn't have much to do in ROS.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020