PT Did the prequels ruin the Jedis ?

HOW you go about telling someone something matters. Yoda could have given Anakin the best advice in the world, but if it comes off cold and uncaring, then the information is basically falling on deaf ears.

And to go along with that, Yoda (along with the other council members) allowed Anakin to be trained as a Jedi even though they all knew his first nine years were the not the same as every other Jedi in their ranks. You can't allow a situation like that to happen and then not be willing to deal with the effects of that decision. Anakin IS emotional... yet they allowed him to start the training at the age of nine. Anakin IS emotional... yet they still knighted him. Anakin IS emotional... and yet Yoda still expects him to be at the same level as his peers.

In AOTC Obi-Wan even spoke about Anakin's other faults like being arrogant and Yoda just hand waves it away. All of these instances come before Yoda and he consistently makes a poor decision. It all makes Yoda seem like a moron.

 

Yoda was not cold or uncaring, and Anakin's refusal to take Yoda's counsel had nothing to do with how he spoke to him.

But they are willing to deal with the effects of that decision. What they won't do, nor does it make sense for them to, is to force Anakin to do what he should do.

If he expected him to be anything, he wouldn't say anything. But Anakin came to him for counsel and he offered wisdom that Anakin chose to not take to heart.

No, he doesn't.

Yoda doesn't make any poor decision on the guidance that he offers, not just to Anakin but to others. Nope/cubman987 edit

 

OBI-WAN: His abilities have made him, well... arrogant.

YODA: Yes. Yes. A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Even the older, more experienced ones.

Yoda admits that the Jedi Order now has a systemic flaw with the Jedi among its ranks, and yet (even though he is acting council member) chooses to do nothing about it.

I don't appreciate you stating I've made a moronic statement. That's about half a step from calling me stupid and that's uncalled for. Especially when we're talking about a character (Yoda) who is told, by Obi-Wan (Anakin's own Master, the man who knows him best) that Anakin is not ready for the task of guarding Padme that Yoda and the council assigned to him. Yoda pays the warning absolutely no mind. Obi-Wan knows the kid best and Yoda just completely ignores his reservations.

 

did they ruin the jedi.......Nope

 

Yes. Absolutely. I expected the Jedi to go to Denny's for breakfast as a team, but only Obi-Wan goes to the Space Denny's in AOTC to meet Dexter. And he doesn't even order any food. I knew from that point, George Lucas dropped the ball when it came to showing the Jedi as food enthusiasts.

 

Yeah he does! He's there to celebrate his 52nd bday, so he shapes the bacon into the numbers "52".

 

That was a special edition retcon. Doesnt count (except on his birthday).

 

They must have had survival classes where they learnt things like skinning and basting a wampa. I bet the stuff at Dex's was too ordinary for Obi-Wan's palette.

 

No, I don't think so. It only just made the Jedi appear more human, well in my eyes it does.

 

It didn't ruin the jedi but changed how we look at them and at characters Obi Wan, Yoda and Anakin. In stead of being just a normal jedi knight who later has kids, he's now the chosen one meant to bring balance to the force and destroy the sith. the jedi are changed from lone samurai to warrior monsk with an order and a council, and they right in the heart of corruption. Obi Wan as younger man with a master who beliefs in the will of the force. Master Yoda who is more arrogant and not yet this wise Sage, He holds a lightsaber and can block force lightning like no other.

 

This is what happened. After making their way close to the Death Star's landing bay; Luke, Leia and Han spotted the Falcon being surrounded by stormtroopers. Then they noticed the stormtroopers were being distracted by something. It wasn't until they made their way to the Falcon's boarding ramp that they saw the Obi-Wan/Vader duel. Luke had a stunned expression on his face. Obi-Wan briefly glanced at him before Vader struck him down. Luke cried out in grief and surprise. The stormtroopers spotted the quartet and started shooting. Luke shot back. Han, Leia and Chewie ran up the Falcon's boarding ramp. Han instructed Luke to shoot a panel to block most of the stormtroopers with sliding doors (or something), which the latter did. Then Luke continued shooting at the remaining stormtroopers, despite Han and Leia's cries to board the Falcon. Luke ignored them and kept shooting, until Obi-Wan's Force Ghost (in voice form) finally instructed him to board the Falcon, which he finally did.

Luke had reacted with some unhealthy emotions to Obi-Wan's death.

 

But he didn't shoot first, and apparently, that's what's most important to Lucas - whether you shot first or not.

 

Interesting because the PT made them seem less human to me.
Cold, distant, uncaring, that was how some of the PT Jedi came across to me.
More concerned with dogma and following the rules than caring about people.
Having lots of rules that ban contact, families and other things.

Not all Jedi, Qui-Gon had some warm scenes with Shmi in TPM and Obi-Wan was quite good for most of AotC and RotS.
But the rest, the idea was for them to appear calm and reserved, but to me they came across as unemotional, distant and seeming not to care.

Obi-Wan in ANH had warmth, charm and humor. He was played very well by Sir Alec Guinness.
To me, several of the PT Jedi lacked these things.
So I did not care about them and when they were all killed, I felt rather unmoved.
The drama was lacking because I was not invested in the characters because of the way they ahd come across.

Not the intent surely but it was the result for me.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Same here. And I think it says a lot that most people like Qui-Gon the most from the PT era of Jedi when he is one of the least Jedi-like of the old Order.

 

Why Luke wanted to be a Jedi when they failed in PT?

Well because as you said Luke is part of the true Jedi line; Qui-Gon = Ben Kenobi = Luke. Luke thinks highly of Ben if you watch ANH and he said that he doesn't like the Empire. And he blows up the death star with the help of Ben when he listened Ben's words; ''use the Force Luke'' after that point, both because of Ben and because of wanting to destroying the Empire (since he has seen that listening Jedi Ben Kenobi actually worked in the first movie) he wants to learn the Force and become a Jedi like Ben Kenobi.

Or you can think this as Vader was the Jedi that 'returned' not Luke. Luke was just trying to save his father from the Emperor and the dark side. As they told us before, the movie is about the family. By saving his father, who was a Jedi, he inherited his father's will, as he said 'I am a Jedi like my father before me.'

Both answers are fine.

 

Does it matter whether the Jedi were caring? Is it the purview of a monastic order to be warm and fuzzy? Their mission was to defend justice and work toward galactic peace. Did they kind of become the Republic's unofficial attack dogs even while claiming to be divorced from politics? Yes. But they never claimed to be the galaxy's fun and friendly party club.

 

I think the biggest issue with the Jedi is their view of emotions. In the OT both Ben and Yoda are always telling Luke to be cautious of his feelings/thoughts/emotions, but never to flat out deny them to himself. Obi-Wan even says that Luke's feelings can do him credit before saying that they can be manipulated to serve the Emperor.

Then the PT Jedi just tell you to bury your feelings completely. There is a huge difference between keeping yourself in check vs denying yourself to feel at all. And before anyone says it, yes, George can do whatever he wants with his film franchise, but the way he had the Jedi act just made me not care about them. And I thought he was going for some kind of message about how the Jedi were mistaken to do what they did and their lack of feeling/emotion was what did them in, but we never got that.

I mean, how are you supposed to be in tune with life when you deny yourself entire aspects of life. In the OT we're told a Jedi should never act out in anger. In the PT we're told a Jedi should never get angry in the first place. Those are two different messages. Ultimately what makes me not care about the Jedi Order in the PT is how dissimilar they are to how the Jedi are presented in the OT.

 

I kind of figured ObiWan and Yoda had time to reflect over the years about how their generation of Jedi did things and humbled themselves a bit

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Is that the point then? That the Jedi of the PT were fundamentally flawed and had to change their ways? There's nothing that says that outright in the OT. And thanks to the ST, we now know that Luke failed just like the entire Order that preceded him. Luke could have been the first of a new generation of Jedi, but instead he's just the last of the old generation.

 

The Jedi were presented as good and noble in the prequels, if somewhat flawed and overly dogmatic and a bit arrogant. Both can be true, but there had to be a reason they allowed themselves to be exterminated. But being a Jedi aint for sissies. Yoda said as much to Luke in EMPIRE. The prequels showed us exactly what he meant by that and a lot of fans couldnt handle it. Im very satisfied with the way the Jedi Order was handled in the prequels.

 

Also as much as you can point out that the Jedi were stuck in their ways and adhered to strict rules, they were right weren’t they ?

There’s certainly deeper levels that can be explored, but the short takeaway is that they warned of how emotions, feelings and attachments can lead to the dark side and it was those attachments that left Anakin open to manipulation to turn to the dark side

 

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Yes, they were right . . . to a certain degree. However, despite being "right", I still believe the Jedi were wrong in approaching this matter. It's one thing to realize that learning to rise above one's emotions is a lifelong task. And it's another matter to distance or TRY to distance oneself from emotions and attachments via some rule. And by utilizing the second, even senior members of the Order had failed to realize they had not really learned how to rise above their emotions and attachments, because they were attached to the Order. Which would explain their stagnant or complacent behavior.

That is because during the 19 years between the PT and the OT, both Obi-Wan and Yoda had learned to view one's emotions and the Force through years of lessons from Qui-Gon's ghost.

 

I feel like failing to teach people how to deal with complex emotions isn't "right". I feel like the Jedi would be more interesting if there was an ideal that they all strove for, even if most of them never really attained it. There are ways to live ones life that are about being positive and not letting your ego/pride/vanity get in the way and cause you to make bad decisions that don't involve just ignoring all negative emotion and feeling. What lesson are we supposed to pull from the Jedi? That's it's either purge emotion or wholeheartedly accept fascism? That seems a bit rubbish.

 

Yeah all fair points, I was just playing devils advocate to be honest