CT Understanding Luke's Cave vision

One of the scenes that has taken me for forever to understand exactly what is going in Star Wars was Luke's Dark side vision in the cave on Dagobah in the Empire Strikes Back. The confusion starts while Yoda and Luke are talking about the dark side just before they arrive at the cave, it seems like kind of a random conversation, but Yoda is actually telling Luke how to pass the cave test. He tells Luke that a Jedi uses the force for self-defense only, never for attack. So in the cave Vader attacks Luke and after a few parries Luke decapitates Vader, which I thought was OK since it was in self-defense, as Vader attacked first. Then later when Luke was leaving Dagobah, Yoda tells Luke yes remember your failure at the cave. So what failure was Yoda referring too? I mean Luke won in self defense, how was that a failure?

It wasn't until something Rey said in the Last Jedi about her cave vision, that finally helped me understand what happened in Luke's. Rey said, I thought that there was something for me there but there wasn't. The dark side tempted her with knowledge of her parents and she refused to touch the dark side. But in Luke's case the Dark side offered Luke the power to beat Darth Vader, and Luke took it. They should have a little caption in the movie "Luke uses the Dark side". The cave test is a test to see if a Jedi can resist the temptation to use the Dark side and Luke failed. I think that the mask coming off and Luke seeing his face might also be an indication that Vader is of Luke's blood, while also foreboding that if Luke continues to touch the Dark side he will end up like Vader.

When you take this into account while Luke is leaving Dagobah, that he has failed to resist the Dark side and that Luke has made the same decision his father did when he chooses the love of his friends over his duty as Jedi. You can really feel the weight of the darkness that the Jedi are facing in that moment, the outlook for Yoda and Obi-wan at this moment is very bleak.

Viewer Note: When watching all the Star Wars Films in order, do not, do not watch Rogue One with in like six months of watching Empire Strike's Back, it makes Empire's Hoth scene look bad, and brings up all kinds of questions that don't have good answers. Enjoy!!

 

The failure was that Luke took weapons into the cave and ignored Yoda's advice that he wouldn't need them. He went armed, and too ready to resort to a fight. That was the test. The resultant being that when he decapitated 'Vader', the embodiment of violence and evil, he saw his own face, a premonition of what was to come if he kept down that path of resorting to anger and violence as his first instinct. Yoda even tries to give him a clue as to what awaits him in the cave "Only what you take with you" - i.e. violence in Luke's case, as he took weapons with him.

When Yoda reminds him of his failure at the cave later, it is because Luke is doing the same thing again, rushing headlong into a confrontation as his first instinct.

 

I remember George has said that "cave is all about mirrors" or something like that.

 

That's how I read the scene - and Yoda's cryptic advice - "If you go armed, expecting trouble ... you'll find it."

 

Yes agreed, that is another great way of summarising it.

 

The test wasn't simply about bringing weapons with him or not. It's a spiritual test. The cave was a place strong with the dark side of the Force. Luke would succeed by going into the cave clean of the dark side, by controlling and letting go of those emotions. But he went in with his fear and anger alive (which is why he took his weapon with him), and as a result, it manifested itself into an apparition of Darth Vader, who he sought to confront. His face being inside the helmet is just the message that he could become the very thing he wants to fight against by giving into the dark side like.

That's why Yoda reminded him of his failure at the cave when Luke was about to leave Dagobah out of fear. He was making the same mistake again.

 

Which is what nearly happened to him in "Return of the Jedi".

 

That's right, hence him looking at Vader's artificial hand and then his own in realisation that he had just completely destroyed his father in combat due to his own rage. He was becoming Vader. Great scene.

 

At the time (1980) it occurred to me that the Force was giving him a clue to who his father, fighting his father - fighting himself - fighting a part of himself...

I've always wondered what Luke would've experienced had he entered the cave unarmed???

 

That cave has a lot to do with fear too. Luke takes his weapons because he's afraid. And then the person that Luke fears the most materializes. It was a way of Yoda telling Luke that he needs to stop being so brash. And as others have noted their is also the fact that Luke looks to violence as his first option which is not the way of the Jedi. Luke seeing his own face when the Vader helmet explodes is a good warning too of what could become of Luke if he keeps going down this road.

One neat parallel between Anakin and Luke is that Anakin was trained how to be a Jedi and then expected to be a soldier. Obi-Wan lets Luke be a soldier for a few years before he trained as a Jedi. Just food for thought.

 

I don't know if I buy that the cave was about weapons. I mean, I find it hard to fault Luke for wanting to be prepared and defend himself when things look dangerous. I'm more inclined to believe the cave was reading Luke, telling him "this could happen to you". A warning of what the dark side could make him into if he's not careful.

 

I think that what was being conveyed is that the cave wasn't inherently dangerous, until Luke made it dangerous by going in armed. Luke asks what is in there, and Yoda advises him "Only what you take with you". It was an abstract way of teaching Luke that if you go into a situation armed, ready for a fight and looking for trouble, don't be surprised if trouble finds you. You will become the very thing that you fear.

This is exactly what happens to Luke later on. His two confrontations with Vader later see him thoroughly beaten in the first and then becoming like him during the second.

 

The old saying goes, "To a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

Or, "To a Jedi with weapons, every solution looks like a lightsaber."

 

^See, I don't really see it that way. Luke had every reason to think the cave was dangerous.

"There's something not right here. I feel cold. Death."

"That place is strong with the dark side of the Force. A domain of evil it is".

... Doesn't exactly sound reassuring. Plus Dagobah itself isn't exactly the safest place, as Luke has already seen. I dunno, I just find it hard to fault him for wanting to defend himself in that scenario. Maybe I can see it being about Luke's expectations about being a Jedi, much like he expected Yoda to be a "great warrior", that it's about the physical battles. But here he sees there are emotional and spiritual battles as well.

 

I liked the way Legends handled it in Champions of the Force - Luke puts Kyp through the same kind of test, (after Kyp fell, repented, and is seeking redemption) - and taking the lightsaber in doesn't count as an Automatic Fail.

Kyp resists the temptation to strike down the Mysterious Shadowy Figure (first he's tempted to use Force lightning and then tempted to use his saber) but he finally says "I will not fight you" - and passes the test.

 

All very true, but I think that the biggest clue is when Yoda tells him directly "Your weapons. You will not need them"

 

Judging by the look on Luke's face as he strapped on his gunbelt, he was thinking, "I'd rather have my weapons and not need them than need them and not have them." Entirely understandable, but his decision betrayed a lack of trust in his mentor, and by extension, lack of faith that the Force would be all he needed. Eventually he proved his faith in the DS2 throne room when he threw away his saber.

 

It's hard to fault someone for wanting to rescue their friends too, but that is also the wrong choice. You, like Luke, must unlearn what you have learned.

 

^Uh, no, I musn't. It's my opinion.

 

He had every reason to trust Yoda and his wisdom. Yoda didn't just say what the cave is. He also said that he must go into it and that he wouldn't need his weapons. Luke ignored that and preferred to give into fear.

It's the fear and doubt that led him to fail. A true Jedi is trained against fear.

 

^Maybe. Maybe he had good reason to bring his weapons and to not. Lots of different ways to look at it. It doesn't have to be "No, it was definitely this". It's the Dagobah cave scene. Different interpretations tend to come with it.

 

The good reason is that it makes the story more interesting. To serve the story, the hero needs to go through a learning process, to make mistakes and learn from them. But Luke's decision to feed his fears (which is what made him decide to bring his weapons) and ignore Yoda's counsel was still a mistake nonetheless. That's what it was about: to show the audience that it was something that he shouldn't have done.

 

^There are many ways to look at the Cave Scene. No offense, but I don't need a lecture on it. Really, the "Luke had reason to bring weapons" thing is more a nitpick of mine. I get the usual messages people get out of the scene, about brashness, not listening, not trusting, holding on to fear, etc. I'm not really dismissing those points. But if I see something different, I see something different. Agree to disagree.

 

There's no real way to discuss this if we can't find even ground though. If you disagree with the message of the movie, that's one thing. Pretending the message isn't what it is just means there's no way to discuss it with you. It'd be like you walking in here and saying that you choose to see Yoda as a 10 foot tall gorilla and the fact that he's a small green puppet is just because of effects limitations. Like, yeah you can pretend Yoda is a gorilla, but there's no way to discuss that with you because it's not based in reality.