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Rogue One [Official Info] Diego Luna (Captain Cassian Andor) in Rogue One

Discussion in 'Anthology' started by starocean90, May 13, 2015.

  1. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    I think that even most pacifists would acknowledge that removal of a man directly involved with creating a weapon capable of obliterating entire systems for a tyrannical regime such as the Empire is ethically justified. Cassian is just about the best thing in Rogue One, and embodies the idea that to defeat terror and oppression, you sometimes have to take the fight to them, as ugly as that may be.
     
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  2. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 20, 2018
    Yeah we disagree, and that's fine. Killing a scientist in cold blood with reasonable doubt that he might be on your side, is not exactly taking the fight to them.

    And for me Cassian is the worst thing in Rogue One, what can I say.
     
  3. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    Discussing Cassian in the Cassian thread is great, but let's not just beat dead horses with regards to people's opinions... thanks.
     
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  4. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    I would argue that Galen Erso wasn't just "a scientist" though, he was the man that the Rebel intelligence had identified as heading up the death star project, so a primary target within that war theatre. Draven was right, take no chances. That is what makes Rogue One such an awesome movie, it wasn't afraid to confront those kind of moral questions. Cassian questioned himself, and ultimately didnt shoot. I would have though.

    EDIT: Sorry moderator EHT - I posted but didnt see your post. Is this post okay or shall I delete? ^^
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
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  5. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    It's fine, that post was mostly constructive discussion. Just don't want this to become people trying to tell someone they're wrong, but your post doesn't read that way to me.
     
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  6. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 21, 2019
    [​IMG]

    Okay, but seriously your right, we should all stop:p

    Nobody's wrong here; even at the worst of when me and @DarthFixxxer were butting heads yesterday and I did'nt think he was wrong - I thought he was interpreting elements of the film incorrectly, but that's different and even then I admitted that it was entirely possible it was I who was reading it wrong. He's entitled to his opinion, and opinions can't, by definition, be wrong (and honestly the argument is more my fault in hindsight, as I should have just said "okay, you do you" early on, so I'll take the blame for what went down).

    My only real quibble anyway was blaming Cassian for what the X wings did, becuase they were'nt his responsability, they were Draven's, and reading him lacking remorse, but even so that's his interpritation and he is, and should be, entitled to it.

    I mean hating Cassian Andor should'nt be a crime; after all their character more worthy of hate in the francise that peaple love (Kylo, for instance) and characters way more worth of love that peaple absolutly loath (Jar Jar[face_sick]) - Cassians fairly middling by comparison, and is actually supposed to somewhat grey and unlikable, so he's actually one of the characters that it's more understandable to dislike, especially for someone like Fixxxer whose moral code and standards seem to be much stricter then my own; I myself can forgive a lot in a fictional character so long as they profess genuine remorse eventually and try to be a better person (honestly it's the characters on the flip side who think and present themselves as good peaple but do bad crap all the time without remorse or self-awareness, like Daenerys Targaryen, who I don't like).

    I would'nt have - if only becuase Draven's order for the hit was illegal and I would have known that. But I can't fault someone for thinking the reverse, as A) one in Cassian's position could easily have legitimate suspisions that Galen was'nt on the level and B) even if he was a living Galen could easily be forced to make more weapons for the Empire.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
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  7. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 6, 2018
    If Cassian isn’t a good guy, then Luke isn’t either, for killing millions of people - military and civilians to be sure - on the Death Star.

    Cassian was on the front lines of a fight against planet-destroying, galaxy-oppressing fascists. He was a good guy, and a hero. One who made a couple of questionable choices, for sure (good guys shouldn’t murder allied informers, IMO, no matter the potential danger of leaving them alive), but by the end of the film, he’s fully redeemed.
     
  8. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    That one scene for me elevates Rogue One from a great Star Wars movie to a great war movie, period. It was brave of Disney to sign off on some of the story and character decisions, but by doing so, they really did give us a winner in my opinion.

    @K2771991 - Can I ask what makes you say that Draven's order for the hit was illegal?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
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  9. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Right. It’s just that Rogue One was told in a more...low mimetic/ realistic style than the OT. We don’t actually know if Luke, Han, Leia or others committed morally questionable acts to defeat the Empire because their stories were told in a higher heroic style, and we only saw their big moments.
     
  10. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 20, 2018
    This lack of logic by you impresses me to be honest.
    Those equivalencies hurt my brain so I don't even care to elaborate about this.
    All praise Cassian Andor the poor victim.
     
  11. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Galen was an Imperial military scientist that was leading the Death Star project. He was a legitimate target, given that information, and so killing him would have been morally justified, IMO. But when doubt was introduced to Cassian by Jyn, who told him Galen may have been secretly undermining the Empire and aiding the Rebellion, he didn't shoot him.

    The Death Star was also a legitimate target for Luke, as it was a planet-destroyer. He had no evidence that there were significant numbers of people on the Death Star working for the Rebellion, and so it was a purely Imperial military target. And so his attack on the Death Star was morally justified, IMO.

    I don't see any gap in that equivalency at all.

    I've not once talked about justifying Cassian's actions because he's a "victim." I never would. I've justified his actions (except for killing the informant) based solely on the moral legitimacy of violence against his Imperial targets. And once he had doubts about Galen being an actual Imperial, he hesitated. And didn't kill him. That places him quite squarely on the level of Luke, halfway through the film.
    It was against Mon Mothma's orders, which was to bring him in alive and before the Senate for questioning.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  12. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    You could argue that there is a part of Cassian's actions in killing his informant that could be described as a mercy killing. He knew what would happen to him if he was captured by the Empire. Cassian couldn't get him out, they were cut off in that alleyway by the squad of stormtrooopers that had arrived. The only way was over that wall, which the informant couldn't climb.

    Cassian would also have the tactical motive at the forefront of his mind, but there are two small details that make you see Cassian as both humane and human in that scene. The first is that he kills him mercifully. He does it quickly, out of sight of the informant so as not to scare him, and after reassuring him that it is "going to be alright". The second is when he looks at the informant just before he flees. His face displays a level of sympathy and regret at what he had to do. He isn't a merciless killer, but he was in a situation where he had no other realistic option.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
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  13. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    That shot in the informant's back really surprised me the first time I saw the movie, and it's still kind of uncomfortable every time I rewatch it. But yes, I think a big part of Cassian doing that was because the informant's leg meant that he could not climb out of there, which the guy clearly states. And other than that option, they are completely trapped. Cassian knows that the guy will probably be tortured later. So yes, I think killing him was to stop him from giving up information later through torture, but also to spare the guy that fate; I don't think he would have killed him if it was only to stop him from talking, and Cassian clearly feels bad about what he decides he has to do.
     
  14. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 20, 2018
    I find it quite interesting that I had also stayed with the impression that it was his leg, but on rewatch I realized it's actually his arm.

    I don't think there was any level of mercy killing at this point, it was all about the information. And I understand why he had to do it.
     
  15. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    I think it is a bit of both. The tactical reason and the likelihood of torture reason. They are spies, and like spies in most combat theatres, they aren't usually given the kind of protection awarded to regular combatants. He wasn't likely to end up in an imperial prison like Jyn.
     
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  16. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    Oh wow, yeah, it is his arm. I guess I was partially thinking leg because he's limping some.
     
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  17. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 20, 2018
    That's exactly how it got me too.
     
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  18. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Agree with this totally. However, for it to be morally justified in my own personal ethics, I think Cassian should have given the informant the opportunity to agree to his own death. And if the informant preferred to live and face the consequences, let him be.
     
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  19. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    I think that is where the tactical element of Cassian's actions come in, he couldn't really risk it. Knowing about the Death Star was only a tactical benefit to the Rebellion for as long as the Empire were unaware that they knew about it.
     
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  20. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 20, 2018
    And that's precisely why I think that a "mercy killing" angle did not even register with Cassian at the moment.
    It was a tactical decision throughout. If his peer at the moment did not possess important information, he would have let him live.
    I agree that he killed him mercifully, but I don't agree that he killed him so that he doesn't suffer in the hands of the Empire.
     
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  21. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    You are probably right about his motive, but the outcome as an observer could be considered a mercy killing based on the probability of what the informant's likely fate would be if captured alive.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
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  22. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 21, 2019
    Cassian reminds me a bit of Kira Nerys from Star Trek; both are rebel fighters who have been involved in their respective cuases since childhood and both have done (or nearly done) some pretty shady things for their cuase that they have to offer up flimsy justifications for in order to mask the guilt of. The main difference being that Kira was a stright-up terrorist and is way more unapologetic then Cassian (even though she, like he, clearly feels guilt).

    While I hesitate to contridict you since we're more or less in agreement on Cassian; that's a bit of a strech I think; a better analogy, IMO, would be Lando not being a good guy becuase he betrayed Han, Leia, Chewie and 3P0.

    Han I could easily see doing what Cassian did at the start of the film, unless he had some sort of connection to the informer. Luke not so much and Leia maybe, but only if she's already desperate and it's absolutely critical - after all she's the person who had no issue crippling an entire planet's economy just to get back at one person, so I could sorta imagine her taking down someone if not doing so just meant she dies as well and the Rebellion/Resistance is compramised.

    I'm not sure he had time to give the guy the oppertunity and the problem with letting him live to face the consequences is that the conseqences affect the rebellion and the partisans as well as himself; he has information and saws group, and as Cassian's contact we can probobly assume he also has information on Cassian himself that would hurt the rebellion.

    Killing him might be morally grey, but it's also fairly realistic of what would likely be expected of a field operative in that position all the time.

    As Bor said, Mothma wanted Erso brought in alive and Cassian was standing right their when she said it; it's like going to a breifing were the president tells you to do something and then ingoring what the president said to follow a contrary order from a CIA deputy director (or whatever Draven's analogue would be)

    I assumed he just had a bum leg on top of his wounded arm. Which I suppose would just make him more of a liability from Cassian's perspective if their climbing out.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I think there is a difference between Cassian being willing to kill Galen because he thinks Galen voluntarily gave his skills to the Empire for building the Death Star, and Cassian being willing to kill Galen after knowing that Galen was coerced.

    And while I’m always up for an excuse to watch Rogue One again, I don’t think the latter happened.
     
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  24. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 20, 2018
    He is willing to kill Galen Erso after Jyn Erso has relayed the message he told her, that he "did the one thing no one expected him to do", which is to build the Death Star, but to plant a trap in it, a way to destroy the Death Star, because he realized that if he hadn't agreed, they would have finished the Death Star anyway. He's not the only scientist in the galaxy that knows a thing or two about nuclear reactors after all, it would be kinda silly for the Rebel Alliance to think that without Galen Erso this wouldn't be a reality.

    So the question is whether Cassian Andor believed Jyn Erso or not. And if he believed her, did he still want to kill Galen Erso because those were his orders.
     
  25. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 21, 2019
    He ultimatly choses not to kill Galen when the moment comes after learning what he learns, so it seems to be that the answer for "did he still want to/was willing to kill Galen" was "no," irregardless of whether or not he should have changed his mind earlier then the specific moment in which he did.