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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST J.J. Abrams (Director Of TFA & TROS) Discussion Thread—Now Finally Discussing: JJ Abrams

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. Darth_Bertie

    Darth_Bertie Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2014
    I do. It is hard to denny it IMO. As much as TLJ is hated, it brought stuff we had not seen before. There was no planet like Crait or like Canto Bight, there was no such thing a the conection between Rey and Kylo, or the Force projection. I personally did not like any of that, but at least was new. There new ship designs as well: Snoke's ship, Kylo's TIE, that SD with the big canons Poe destroys, the Resistance bombers... Neither of those were ground breaking, but still, they were something new.

    Now think about TROS. The Final Order ships are... OT Star Destroyers. Kylo's new TIE is just a repainted OT TIE Interceptor, etc. etc.

    JJ simply disliked deviating one bit from the OT aesthetics. And the result was just forgettable
     
  2. alwayslurking

    alwayslurking Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2019
    Yeah, Crait was so "new" that RJ literally had to have someone taste the ground to differentiate it.
     
  3. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    In terms of ships, I’m with you...

    ...though I think TROS actually saw him draw even or beyond Johnson in world design, given the “space iceberg” place and Exegol, and I think he wound up being more creative in using the Force Skype than Johnson did, and he introduced the Dyad, as bad as it was.

    But I also feel Finn in TFA alone is a more creative addition and expansion of Star Wars than anything in TLJ in terms of plots and characters.

    And I see TLJ as actually regressing a whole lot of plot, philosophy, and characterization standards of Star Wars, even though it clearly wants to be considered a thinking man’s Star Wars film.

    And most of that can be traced to what I see as an inaccurate “Shallow Hipster’s Assessment” of the franchise and previous movies. I think we all know the characterization arguments, so I won’t go over them again, but the plot and philosophy regression I think bears some repeated analysis.

    Philosophically, the film starts out with a condescendingly shallow and limited view of the Jedi, the Force, and the morality of the setting, which is why even when it tries to questions the those elements, it doesn’t really do a deep dive - it considers them all so childish, it addresses them like a petulant teenager, so it doesn’t ask more questions, or actually hypothesizes about new answers, and thus ends up mostly just being a pessimistic cynic reluctantly affirming them by the end of the story.

    Plot-wise, it seems to think that the entire franchise is chained by the Skywalker story, even though anyone who knows the franchise knows that’s not true but it *also* only sees value in the Skywalker characters, so it ends up weirdly trying to burn the bridges with the Skywalker story... but only after it uses that family story for its own pretentious story itself. It basically tried to cash in on all of the Skywalker story’s popularity and left a story that could only be a pale retread for stand-alone in its wake.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
  4. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2017
    The Force Skype is really the only new thing in TLJ, and I take a lot of issue with it because it made the first female hero of Star Wars live action tied down to a male Skywalker instead of letting her have her own story. RJ's "new" characters, Rose, DJ and Holdo, are all extremely forgettable. Holdo was vastly more interesting in her debut novel than RJ's film. Canto Bight was basically Las Vegas in space and the most boring part of the sequels.

    Finn, Poe, BB-8, Kylo Ren, Rey - all of these characters are from JJ and all of them had great potential after the first film. I also think Exegol was probably the coolest new location in all of the sequels. JJ does rehash a lot from the originals, and it's one of his biggest weaknesses, but I still found his films way more entertaining and with much better characters than RJ's film.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
  5. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2016
    Y'all are sleeping on the broom boy. The heck's the matter with you. [face_shame_on_you] He's the new Luke Skywalker.

    There's more I like about TRoS than TLJ (the characters are together, Rey matters more than in TLJ, Luke is more recognizable but still dead, etc.), but just as much that's hateable. And it has it's own set on problems including but not limited to retconning the entire series, to horrible pacing and editing to the extent that nothing lands or has time to sink in. Some might say it's partially Johnson's fault they needed to make TRoS be two movies in one which is why it's overstuffed and the most ridiculously paced J.J. Abrams movie to date, but that stupid Sith Dagger and Wayfinder and macguffin after macguffin search is all their own fault as well as adding all these new characters to an already bloated roster pads the movie out too. You make a script that's too long and when you need to get it down under 2 hours and 30 minutes it can get ugly. Like that dropped Lando/Jannah plot line to nowhere, too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The Force Skype could have been a cool idea if it were used differently. As it was, it was used as an excuse to make Rey get cozy with Kylo by pretending she had no choice. (She did not make any effort to exercise any choice either.)

    Rose: better in Rise of Skywalker. In TLJ, she was just used to lecture Finn.

    DJ: I mean—I’m glad Johnson used him in that role instead of Lando, because that would have been infuriating. And I like the commentary on the military industrial complex and war profiteering provided by the Canto Bight sequence. So I guess I don’t have too much negative to say about DJ, at least there was no pretense that he was a hero or sympathetic.

    Holdo: She was fantastic in Princess of Alderaan. Johnson used her as a caricature of feminism by people who like to mock feminism, and used to lecture Poe while he got put into the bad hothead-Latino stereotype.

    Finn, Poe and Rey were all caricatured in bad stereotypes in TLJ, and Finn and Poe vastly improved in TROS, Finn screaming for Rey aside.
     
  7. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2016
    I think DJ won The Last Jedi. He got what he wanted and disappeared.
     
  8. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2017
    I'd forgotten about Broom Boy. That was the worst ending to any SW movie, lol. So dumb.

    Anyway, I think that's ultimately why I enjoy TROS as much as I do: because Rey actually feels like the main character. TROS is a mess, no doubt about it, but it remembered that Rey was the main character. It also threw Ben Solo down a pit so Rey could actually defeat the villain on her own, and that alone makes it a more entertaining movie than TLJ for me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
  9. alwayslurking

    alwayslurking Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2019
    Three kids in the scene. The white boy gets the final emphasis of the movie and the forward looking force moment. TLJ in a microcosm.
     
  10. DarthKreVass

    DarthKreVass Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Sometimes saying nothing... says volumes.
     
  11. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Crait was essentially like Hoth, just with salt. Canto Bight is a casino. If we're discussing different looks, Starkiller Base has a different design than the death star, but I don't really see it as much new. It's a death star, but it's bigger and blows up more planets.

    Rey and Kylo's connection isn't really new to me, as it doesn't tell a very different story. Similar to force projection. It's a different thing, but I think it's not telling a new story. It's just a vaguely different force power. Even the Kylo and Rey thing I think we've seen before, in a way, with Luke and Leia. To me, these things aren't much different than some of JJ's uses: The same, but slightly different!

    In comparison, for movies, the idea of presenting a defecting stormtrooper is new.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
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  12. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    That moment feels like Abrams putting his foot down the only place he can in a climax otherwise formed pretty clearly to benefit Ben at Rey’ expense.
     
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  13. Gamma626

    Gamma626 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 6, 2014
    Seriously. It’s a greatest hits Star Wars film just as much as TFA was. It still blows me away how people kept saying “you don’t like it cause it’s NEW and not a regurgitation of the familiar!” when the entire film is just beats from empire and Jedi but done terribly with worse characters, by someone who didn’t understand the themes and tone of the originals.
     
  14. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    The attitude and tone are different, I think that must be admitted... but I don’t think their supported by smart enough writing to make them worth real admiration outside of personal preference, if that makes sense.

    Rogue One had a different tone and attitude too, but followed through in writing the plot and details to justify and properly exploit and “explain” the attitude and tone.

    The lack of smart writing is what makes TLJ a “hipster” movie, in some ways.
     
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  15. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2020
    I would have to disagree about Last Jedi being original. It is a more beautifully shot, but lesser riff on things seen already in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. For example, taking the Crait attack sequence at an aesthetic level, where have we seen air speeders ride out from a rebel base over a gleaming white landscape to attack enemy walking machines before? The whole sequence was so on the nose that there is even an in-joke to to distinguish snow from salt. Canto Bight was another version of Cloud City, and the guy that meets up with Finn and Rose is an alternate version of Lando, in that he seems friendly at first, then betrays them. Ironically, even though it is the most crazy of the three, Rise of Skywalker is probably the most original, even with the return of the Emperor.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
  16. Gamma626

    Gamma626 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 6, 2014
    More than that, but the commonly cited "new" elements such as Rey and Kylo's force "connection" or Luke's projection both came from legends material. Rey and Kylo in many ways are a (very) poor man's Revan and Bastilla, and the force projection was an idea from that Jedi path guide book from like 2005.

    The force bond is nearly two decades old, and lucasfilm struggled to get people to not call it that, and call it the force connection (or dyad) because a large portion of the fan base already knew it as something else before Rian "revolutionized" Star Wars and just knocked off something that already existed... just like the majority of TLJ.

    Just a bit ago, I read someone say the Mandalorian hasn't evolved in its two seasons the way TLJ pushed and evolved Star Wars with a single movie. I feel like I'm in an alternate universe to some of these people. Are we not watching the same stuff? I really just don't get it man... I just don't.
     
  17. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2020
    The more I think about Rise of Skywalker, the more it feels like some mad, hallucinogenic Star Wars trip. If the Sequel Trilogy were three brothers, the Force Awakens would be the dull, predictable yet dependable brother, Last Jedi would be the handsome, pretentious brother who saw himself as better than his siblings, and Rise of Skywalker would be the lunatic, drug-addled brother who made no sense whatsoever and despite his best efforts to please everybody, constantly disappointed everybody.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
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  18. takotsubo

    takotsubo Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2020
    I can't believe anyone had hope JJ in the first place.
     
  19. DarthKreVass

    DarthKreVass Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2008
    While I don't hate the new flicks, your analogy is pretty funny, yet accurate.

    I mean, the ST is lacking a "vision" for sure. Say what you want about the first 6 movies, but regardless of personal choice, GL had things much more "together" even tho we all know some of his plans and idea where off the seat of his pants at times. I think he had to change course a lot when he went thru his various edits of each film. As a creative person myself, this always happens, even on smaller scale work.

    But still, the first 6 has more going for it vision-wise than the ST. I felt there was nothing outstanding in the ST that really stood out.

    I mean, Felucia, Naboo, Dagoba, Corusant, Mustafar, Kamino, Polis Massa, Bespin, they were all cool new worlds. Nothing I saw in the ST equaled to the level of those environments. Plus, they were all so different, and alien. Ahch-To was the only ST planet that made an impression, even that too, didn't look to alien.

    Again, I don't hate the ST. I'm not for the removal of these movies or redo them. I accept them as Canon. The real test is how much will Disney/LF add on to this part of the timeline. They just announced a lot of new media coming to us all, very soon, and I don't see Rey, Finn, Poe, and the rest of the gang anywhere to be found... yet. Unless I missed something. Please correct me if I did.

    What does that tell us? Not sure, but their absence is very telling after that big announcement.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  20. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2020
    That Resistance base exterior in Force Awakens just looks as if it were filmed on the car park outside. No attempt to make it look exotic at all.
    I can just imagine the crew saying to JJ
    "Don't you think it looks a bit like Earth?"
    And he replying
    "But, practical sets!"
     
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  21. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    I love all of these worlds so much.

    I will give Takodana to JJ. Takodana was cool. Interior and exterior.
     
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  22. DarthKreVass

    DarthKreVass Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2008
    I have no issues with CG images and the combo of stripping in practical, models, and CG to create a scene. To me, that just shows the developers and creators are open minded to getting the best results for the look and feel. But to be Just ... "No, it has to be all CGI" ... or ... "It has to be practical" I think shows short sightedness to making what a SW movie is.

    I recently read the making of ROTJ and I remember GL saying that a SW movie is very different to make than other movies. There's a level of look, and feel that has to happen. Yes, a good story is all about characters and the story itself. But, with SW, there's the eye candy and "feel' that has to happen. There's so much to take into consideration when making a SW property.

    I think that's why The Mandalorian is good. I mean the crane walkers were stop motion (or GoMotion from Phil Tippets team) in "The Believer" episode. Why didn't they just do CG? Here again, F&F brothers decided to use all aspects of film production and adds a little fun narrative to the show.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  23. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Crait was “new” as a Star Wars environment, but it sucked. Looked artificial, felt artificial, and featured some of the least compelling action and drama of the saga. Canto Bight could’ve been great, especially as it was shot in one of the most beautiful cities in the world, and yet RJ made it look like a cheap set. So many missed visual opportunities in TLJ.
    I loved all those planets too. Except for the “Bad 90s Screensaver Planet,” Felucia, which is the worst planet in Star Wars so far. Bye Felucia.

    And Takodana would’ve been cooler if there was some activity outside the castle (speeder bikes, alien mounts, ships, etc) to dispel the feeling that the interior was a set completely separate from the exterior. I mean, how did all those customers get there? On foot? Especially as there are clearly interstellar travelers in the joint, spying for the FO. As on Nevarro and Tatooine, show us some local color to fortify the illusion. The ST fails at that on nearly every level.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  24. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2020
    JJ Abrams' locations in Force Awakens were awful, so dull. The forest is nice on Takodana (I believe that is an actual forest location somewhere in England) but the rest of the locations were very uninspired. As you say @Bor Mullet, there was no life or attempt at worldbuilding in that movie. The outpost place on Jakku felt empty and boring, Maz Kanada's castle exterior was boring. When the castle is destroyed, the ruined effect is even worse.
     
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  25. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    I actually like Abrams elsewhere and endorsed him over other some other popular fan picks when it was announced Episode VII was coming. His Trek is flashy and fun at least. Too bad his Star Wars turned out to be some of the blandest work in franchise extension I’ve ever seen.
     
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