Discussion Where does Star Wars go as an IP from here?

Uhh, JJ did retcon parts of TLJ in TROS (proven) and D+ shows will retcon the ST (already has started).

Liking or disliking the ST has nothing to do with it.

This is the Way.

 

One could argue that JJ’s changes/retcons were just part the the story developing as it was being made similar to Leia suddenly being Luke’s sister in ROTJ.

Now that the ST is complete it’ll act as a pillar like the OT and PT where any retcons would be minor - add depth not change context and meaning.

I did a quick google and couldn’t find anything about Mando retconning the ST? Unless you are confused about the timeline and Luke thinking that somehow clashes with how he is in TFA and the first half of TLJ?

Regardless, there will never be a do over, loop hole, alternate timelines created by world between worlds. They’re not going to write over these movies that you seem so desperate to erase.

 

One could argue that. They would either be dishonest or uniformed but they could argue that.

Retconning of Luke to him acting that way because he's hiding Grogu (which is an obvious change at the least) changes everything about the ST. The question of Luke Skywalker and his actions hangs over all 3 films. I'd hardly call that minor (and doubt that's all that's touched).

As for what other cards F&F will play - we will see. They got the keys.

 

Or you know, completely valid. You have a bizarre way of looking at “changes everything”.

Nothing that happened in the season two has changed or retconned anything so far in the ST. It raises questions like “what happens to Grogu when Ben turns on Luke?” But nothing is fundamentally changed - Luke still loses the temple, Ben still goes onto become Kyle Ren etc etc.

Filoni and Favreau both report to Kennedy - their boss. Not sure why you think they are above her and have free reign to do whatever.

 

Frankly, it would be odd if there weren’t significant retcons to the ST given the franchises history. It’s a staple at this point. But the ‘retcons’ which are being referenced by the people advocating the rumours aren’t really what you’re thinking (I suspect). They are talking the ‘World Between Worlds’ changing the timeline (even though that’s not how it worked in Rebels). De facto decanonisation.

 

I'm not going to spell out how this differs from the ST but gonna sit back and and enjoy the show as this works out with the rest of the SW fans who are now pleased.

This is the Way.

 

Surely whatever ones opinion of the ST, we should be able to agree that this isn’t a retcon or inconsistent with the ST...

 

If this was 10, or heck even 5, years ago, I would say there is no way the ST is going to be erased. And even now I think it's unlikely. But we live in crazy times. The Terminator and Halloween franchises both made sequels recently that disregarded previous sequels, the MCU is wading into multiverse territory (apparently including Spider-Man characters from the previous two iterations of the character!), DC appears to be doing something similar with their Flashpoint movie, we had Into the Spider-verse. Obscure superheroes like Guardians of the Galaxy and Black Panther were smash hits. Fan culture is now mainstream and terms like "canon", "multiverse", "fan theory" etc. are much more widespread. It feels like all bets are off these days.

I don't think there's any way the ST would ever be simply de-canonized like the Halloween sequels were. However, the times we're living in makes me think that it's possible that there could be an alternate timeline set up at some point in the future that runs separate from the timeline of the ST. I've speculated about this ever since the World Between Worlds was introduced in Rebels. The fact that the World Between Worlds is featured in the Ahsoka logo is... intriguing.

For everyone talking about The Mandalorian setting up Snoke and the First Order... here's the thing: If there was to be a separate timeline, there would probably be a branching off point. I always thought the moment Luke goes into Ben's hut at night would be the best place because if he doesn't turn on his lightsaber that night, everything changes. Ben doesn't turn to the dark side. Han and Leia aren't estranged. Luke's academy isn't destroyed. Luke doesn't go into exile. etc. If you were to branch off there, for example, Snoke and the First Order would still exist in the timeline, but everything would play out very differently.

Anyway. I'm not saying it's likely; I'm just saying it's possible.

 

I haven’t seen much of The Clone Wars, but I read that by the end of it, Ashoka had left the Jedi Order, which would mean that what Yoda told Luke was true, from a certain point of view?

 

I think there's a categorical difference between a single author like Lucas making "retcons," or revisions, to their story in contrast to multiple authors doing so, and this has to do with a singular vision vs. conflicting visions. While we can reasonably say that Lucas's vision grew over time, we can't say this for JJ and Rian -- each had their own vision which was in conflict in important ways and they didn't work as a team in the way Faverau and Filoni do in order to created a united vision. I think it's easy to see the difference I'm talking about when we consider how the final films in each trilogy either payoff well or seem somewhat incoherent. ROTS and ROTJ both pay off well while most agree, critics and fans alike, that ROS doesn't. The reason it doesn't is because the two visions never become sufficiently united. In principle they could have, like the work of F&F, but they didn't.

If the Mandalorian and the other spin off shows remain highly popular, then the writers will be given the freedom to make most of the retcons they see fit. Ultimately LFL wants to make money and they'll back the creators that take them to the promised land.

 

Does Grogu count as a Jedi? I mean he was at the temple during the clone wars. Probably not given he was likely a Padawan.

 

Liking or disliking the ST has everything to do with it. What were you saying back in 2019? Weren't you expecting Luke to come back and Rey to be a Skywalker? Of course JJ changed stuff to do his thing, but some fans back then were expecting him to change the stuff they dislked for the sake of it. And guess what? He didn't.

Same goes for the Mandalorian. If Filoni going to change that Palpatine got cloned and came back? Is Favreau going to give Luke his own kids? Or are they rather going to give context to the nonsensical rise of the FO, and show Luke being the hero the ST did no?

Nothing here sounds any different that what Filoni and Lucas did with TCW, which did not change the core of the PT at all.

 

Grogu was highly likely only a youngling by the time the Temple fell.

 

He skipped classes that day to look for tasty eggs.

 

To use the lack of plan for the ST from JJ and everyone else involved as a future predictor of what F&F will do could be made if we hadn't see F&F work already to know better.

But for JJ - fans were right that he would retcon TLJ as much as he could. Him not having a solid plan on who Rey was (even during TFA) is on him and TPTB for having a series without a plan. How could anyone be right on which way he chose when he changed multiple times for TROS alone? Just a cluster.

As for F&F? They know what they are doing. World Between Worlds - here we come:



This is the Way.

Practical way of looking at it and I agree. To think SW can't be touched is just disconnected to how the movie industry works.

Like you said - with the Ahsoka logo we can safely guess that the manipulation of timelines will come up again. How? TBD.


Saw a good argument that the timeline of the ST has already been manipulated by Ezra saving Ahsoka. TL;DR version - Luke can't be a teacher for the first time with Ben (he started when Ben was 10) if he already started training Grogu 6 years prior. And Luke doesn't train Grogu if Ahsoka dies when she would have to Vader because she was the key to them meeting.

 

Excellent post here and I agree. Times are different now and its the day and age of reboots, redos, remakes and whatever the hell else. Content is being de-canonized all the time as you mentioned and it wont stop. Its clear that most fans are OK with it since many are on board with such things. Heck, Superman Returns completely ignored Superman 3 & 4(good, they are crap anyways, lol) so thats a solid example and that film is from 2006. So yes, all best are off as you stated!

As for the Mandalorian and other shows getting away from the sequels.... Id be fine with it if they did their own thing or didnt tie into the sequels too much at all. The sequels are a mixed bag for me but TROS is simply horrible and that kills the entire trilogy for me. You cant have the last one be the worst one. I just hate it and hate every decision they made with that movie. So if Favreau and Filoni want to steer clear of it, be my freeging guest! Id have no issue with ignoring the sequels and using The Mandalorian as a starting point for post Episode 6 content. SW is so big and there is so much content that they could have multiple "canons" and it'd probably work just fine.

One thing overall though: as an IP, Star Wars is NOT as big with younger generations as it is with those of us that are older, IMO. SW is cool and whatever but it seems to me that the MCU is bigger amongst that demographic than SW. I could be wrong. I guess the implications of that is that SW doesnt have as large of a real fanbase as they think it does.

 

Agreed with your post - going off this last comment:

SW was still on top in 2015 when TFA dropped but by the time MCU hit phase 3 in 2017 both MCU and SW were headed different directions.

Feels like F&F are hitting their next phase (examples not to scale).

Phase 1 - Favreau intro to Disney SW. (Rebels, not sure how to classify Resistance since Filoni checked out for Clone Wars)
Phase 2 - Favreau & Filoni together (Mando, Clone Wars)
Phase 3 - F&F SWEU (Mando, Boba, Ahsoka, Bad Batch, Rangers)

This is the phase with the volume of characters that should start to make an impact on younger generations like the MCU if it can.

 

I love the Mandalorian, and I like what Favreau and Filoni are doing with it, but I also like what some of the other directors have contributed as well, like Chow, Famuyiwa, Howard, etc. I don’t need Star Wars to be dictated by just one or two people, I’d rather as many voices be included as possible, each bringing their own voices and perspectives to the franchise, in my opinion that’s the correct way forward and how to most appeal to the widest possible audience

 

For The Mandalorian, Favreau and Filoni are basically like showrunner 1 and showrunner 2. But yes, I agree about having all the directors giving their own voice and feeling to their respective episodes. The difference when compared to the ST is that there is an established framework for the overall story of The Mandalorian in place, whereas the ST felt very disjointed because Abrams and Johnson were also writers and were both able to guide almost everything about their respective movies.

 

Agreed in general @starfish but @EHT basically made the point I was going to. Have to agree on baselines rules for the GFFA or the audience won't trust the IP, as we saw with the ST.

Work with F&F, get the foundation, and then go off and do whatever you like, is a great recipe for success going forward. We've seen from the BTS how they discussed what SW should and shouldn't be. I'm sure those convos are more candid off camera.

 

I mean, I think it’s a good thing to have someone like Filoni who can contribute the lore and the details and the general motifs that are apparent throughout the core of Star Wars, and in some fashion mesh them together so they are coherent.

But I’m also all for including some brand new people to the franchise, whether it be Taika Waititi and his upcoming film, or Debra Chow with her work in both the Mandalorian and forthcoming Kenobi series, or even if it’s just in the Books and Comics, with all the people associated with the High Republic project. In my opinion, making room for new people is just as important to the IP as is having a coherent story that is considered Canon.

 

Once stability is in place that definitely is an option. But continuity is what consumers want out of IPs (and the audience doesn't care how its done) so that's what Disney will try to provide.

I believe Star Wars fans thought it was different from market trends. That might have been true under GL, but the House of Mouse doesn't work that way.

 

well, I think you have a point, but with the amount of content upcoming, I don’t know that stability or what’s canon or not, is going to matter?

especially when we consider new eras in the timeline, many of the people here are familiar with KOTOR or the Thrawn Trilogy, but for the general audience they would be brand new, and if they are introduced into new stories, separate from the old EU, then the general audience will have even less reason to associate them to with past stories,

I dunno, I’ve always come at this stuff from a ‘tell a good story’ point of view, like at this point I’m like **** canon.

now, maybe that’s because I’ve read too many Star Wars books, but honestly i think there’s a good market reason to balance the two trains of thoughts