Discussions Unpopular Expanded Universe Opinions

I haven’t read the Callista trilogy so what do people hate about her character besides the fact that she was Luke’s lover at one point?

Yes it’s a great name, though I didn’t come up with it, I saw it in an older thread.

As for her being a Sith, I don’t like it because it’s just very jarring and pointless. It’s like if in Dark Empire Palpatine revealed to Luke that Yoda was actually a Sith Lord and was training Luke to become a Sith so he could kill Darth Vader and rule the galaxy at Palpatine’s side.

The retcon is bad because it makes it seem like Vergere was some sort of evil mastermind the whole time, who was just training Jacen to become Darth Vader II, and if you choose to accept this idea it ruins Traitor the same way Dark Empire would have ruined Empire if it revealed that Yoda was a Sith.

 

Well, if that's how LOTF potrays it, then i would agree, that sucks.

But as far as i've seen in Legacy it's never shown or implied that Vergere's true purpose is to create another ruling Sith Lord, because she rejected Krayt when he formed his ideology of the One Sith, she was looking for something else, based on what we know from the NJO, she was looking for someone to understand the Vong, someone like Jacen, who could look beyond the narrow point of view of Jedi/Sith to bring a larger understanding to save the Vong.

Basically what i'm saying is that, even if she did study Sith arts in the past, the "Sith Lord Mastermind Vergere" is a mask, as much of a lie as the Vergere that followed the "True Way" or the Vergere that represented the Old Jedi Order, in truth, she is none of these things, not truly, as she puts it when Jacen asks if she's a Sith, she is just "Vergere".

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion in itself, but i just don't think that the her once studying under Sidious takes anything away from the narrative of Traitor or the ideas presented there, if anything it just gives her philosophy more merit, and i don't think any character POV based assumptions of her motives (even the ones in LOTF) can outweight her own actions or ideals presented in the story.

 

It is Lumyia says "Me and Vergre have a plan and we were partners".

So yeah she is a full and committed Sith, at least as Lymyia tells alema.

 

Well, i'll have to wait and see how it actually plays out in the book, but from the outset i am inclined to believe that Lumiya's point of view was largely affected by Vergere's misdirection, but i'll leave this for when i get the books (which doesn't seem to be anytime soon given where i live, at least legally and in my native tongue, but who knows, maybe the stars will align and we'll get all 18 LOTF and FOTJ novels translated by Planeta or something the next year ).

 

I say read it in a foreign langue, it will make it less bad.

 

Lumiya and Vergere don’t even come across as partners, if we buy Lumiya’s story it just seems both women had similar goals and happened to meet by the sheerest chance and decided to bring their goals to fruition. The only collaboration were the discussions they supposedly had about who to make a Sith.

That said, its debatable how similar their goals actually were. And how much they just happened to align. Lumiya seemed to want some sort of Sith paradigm shift towards a philosophy of selfless sacrifice, and Vergere wanted to save the Vong and presumably to forge someone who could transcend the Sith Jedi dichotomy all together. They seemed to agree that Jacen fit the bill.

Personally, everything about the Vergere-Lumiya backstory to me smacked of extraordinary levels of contrivance and chance that breaks my SOD.

That said, as far as unpopular opinions go-I can believe that Vergere had interacted with Palpatine. Despite being a Jedi apprentice IIRC at the time. She always seemed to get away with things under her superior’s noses. Shame we didn’t actually get any Vergere interactions with Palpatine in Darth Plagueis.

I do agree that Vergere wouldn’t see the Sith label as particularly meaningful. And it would have been better if jacen had responded to Lumiya’s revelation with a “if all your saying is true, it doesn’t matter because Vergere didn’t care about labels”.

As for Lumiya, my unpopular opinion is that she meant what she said and she by no means set Jacen up to fail. It might be bold, but I’d say at some level she did genuinely did care for his success and held him in high regard. And did not see him as just a pawn in her revenge against Luke.

 

I bet Luceno was saving it for the thrilling sequel: Darth Sidious, detailing the events between Episodes I and II, including Dooku's fall to the Dark Side, and all of the political machinations Sidious went through to stay in office and bring about the Separatist Crisis.

 

Was such a thing ever planned?

 

Not officially, but i like to believe Luceno had his ideas for a Plagueis sequel of that nature, after all Dooku's fall to the Dark Side was never fully depicted in Legends, i'm sure they were saving it for later, then the decanonization happened, after all it did get explored when it was all New Canon in Dooku: Jedi Lost. That story just seems right up Luceno's alley, considering his work with Plagueis and Tarkin.

 

I like that the Star Wars universe always has high technology even in ancient times like we see in Legends

 

And yet, somehow, the past is still shrowded in mystery, missing records, and amnesia, despite that wonderful technology.

 

For myself, Anakin Solo wasn't utilized the best that he could have been. There was no real explanation for how he suddenly went from quiet and introspective in JJK to more talkative and open (though my theory is that spending years as friends with Tahiri helped lead to that). Also, aside from EoV: Conquest, there wasn't actually much focus on Anakin's own view of the Force. His disagreements with Jacen seemed to just be for contrariness' sake on both sides at times. I'd like to think that if Anakin had been apprenticed to someone other than Luke, both brothers might have been able to better figure things out (my personal preference would be Kyle Katarn).

 

EU books and Dark Horse comics are different universes
SWTOR is a universe where KOTOR 2 dont happen
There is a universe where the Prequels dont happen and the Clone Wars from Thrawn Trilogy happen

 

I haven’t read these yet so I can’t say for sure, but doesn’t Darth Bane POD contradict the Jedi vs Sith comics?
I’ve also heard people say that the Invasion comics don’t fit well with the NJO novels.

SWTOR treats KOTOR 2 as though it never happened, even going as far as to completely ignore it in the timeline videos.

The bantam novels definitely don’t fit with the prequels, I know they did retcons to try and make everything fit but it doesn’t work for me, the bantam books (along with all pre-1999 sw material) and prequels take place in different universes as far as I’m concerned.

 

Eh, they don't contradict anything, though the Darth Bane books do go against some of the implied stuff in Jedi vs Sith.

Invasion is fine I think, they do reference the events of the books.

SWTOR has the exile as a character, but the events of the game aren't well known, even during the game.

Aside from the Thrawn books, most of the bantam novels don't go against the PT.


Though having said all that TCW doesn't fit with legends and is it's own universe.

 

The Invasion comics have the best characterization of Jacen Solo since The Unifying Force (the Solo kids have some pretty cool appearances, especially Jacen and Jaina)
I just wanted to say it

 

Meetra Surik is an insult to KOTOR 2, turing the possibly most important protagonist in SW itself into a generic action girl sidekick for Revan is just terrible.

On that note SWTOR is a badly written fanservice filled mess that should have never been made. It really shows how little respect Bioware had for both their own previous work and the EU in general, as there are no lows they wouldn´t go to provide fanservice. Like having Chiss as a playbale race thousands of years before that species had its first contact with the wider galaxy....

 

@Anedon I’m just anticipating the next return of the emperor, maybe this time he’ll have a lab of clones that he transferred his essence into.

In that case I’ll have to check them out.

 

Finally! Others who dislike the SWOTOR lore too.

 

If you like KOTOR2 thats fine. I hate it. I hate how dark it is, how bleak and depressing the setting is. It completely ignores the first KOTORs ending and warps the setting into being a worse version of the OT.

People seeing no difference between Jedi and Sith, is not only a dumb idea, given that a war was fought over those differences, but was also said by what amounts to the member of the SS deaths head. Atton's job was to torture Jedi into becoming Sith so he was among the worst of the worst.

The Exile does nothing aside from killing some Sith and frankly she could only do that due to her having the same powers as them. And those Sith aren't interesting, Sion isn't a threat to you, Nilus is just a storm on legs, there is a reason disaster movies don't focus on the disaster itself but on people as their reactions are what is interesting.

Also KOTOR2's opening is soo boring. Just combat for the entire opening planet. The "Mystery" only might work once (and not if you notice how one droid looks the same as what came out of the flames at the end of the prologue). It is a boring slog to open the game.

None of the characters are fun or interesting to spend time with.

SWTOR at least remembers that a game has to be 'fun' on some level to engage with.

I like games where my choices matter, which isn't the case in KOTOR2, Nar Shadda is the same, Korriban is the same. Even Dantooine and Onderon, where you do makes choices, they don't matter and the same thing happens at the end.

KOTOR2 has the worst elements of TFA and (some) TLJ combined into one.

KOTOR2 is to me the Denningverse of the Old Republic Era.

 

@Anedon

Separated so you don't think I am ranting at you.

What did you think of Quaren in KOTOR1 or the Mon Cal in the Clone Wars? because in the old lore their first encounter with the galaxy was when the Empire attacked them?

 

I think that´s a case where the newer canon did overwrite it. And yes these things do happen. Some old books also refer to Mandalorians differently to what they eventually became.

The thing with the Chiss was just, their creator explicitly gave us a first contact story. And Bioware defenetly knew it. This wasn´t some random piece of information hidden somewhere in a roleplaying guide.
I would have been fine if in SWTOR you had met like one or two Chiss characters during a quest, like them being explorers or something. But no, they had to make them a playable race.

Maybe its a bit hypocritical but to me some mentions in an rpg sourcebook have not the same value than a full novel dedicated to that fact. Said it before but to me sourcebooks don´t count as canon.

Plus I think it was Lucas who included the Mon Cala/Quarren in the PT, so the overwrite came from him.

 

SWTOR gave Revan and Bastila a depressing ending, with Revan strapped to a stasis chamber getting mind abused by Palpatine 2.0 for 300 years and Bastila living the rest of her days as a widow and single mother.

Plus everyone in the under city of Taris. I liked to imagine they survived and managed to build their own new society but nope, they all died.

But don’t worry Palpatine 2.0 will eventually be defeated by a random Jedi Knight.... and then he’ll return again... and again, and again, and again. He will never die!

I’m convinced that Palpatine 2.0 is actually Palpatine from the movies. His spirit was on Naboo looking for a new body and he saw a cot saying Sheev and decided that was the perfect host.
So depending on which canon you follow, Vitiate either dies by having his lightning reflected back in his face by “I AM ALL THE JEDI” or shot in the back by Han Solo.

But let’s be honest, he was Snoke all along.

 

Do you mean Outbound Flight? Thrawn wasn't a high ranking officer and the Chiss are secretive, so it wouldn't suprise me if they covered things up.

Because they do get Zahn in the write lore for the Chiss later which I actually like (I find it fitting with a totalitarian state like the Chiss). So I don't know if that helps.

Eh people like what they like, I understand being more invested in the novel.

@JediAvatar

I don't think Bastilia had that bad an ending. But yes the children of the outcasts do have a bad end.

I do think Valky is dead, dead. This time though, since they are still keeping an eye out for him.