PT Rewriting the Prequels...

Well, either they're friends or not. Everyone in here has stated they have a strong friendship by the time ROTS rolls around. If you want to run with a different interpretation of the first 40 minutes or so of ROTS, that's fine, but even Lucas says they have a strong friendship by that point so you'll be running counter to the creator with your (completely valid) interpretation.

...I never said it shouldn't have been that way so I'm not sure where you're going with this line of thought.

 

I agree with all of this.

Obi-Wan and Anakin barely interact in TPM.

At the end of that film, we have Kenobi promise young Anakin to train him, we then jump ahead 10 years and they are bickering. Later in AOTC, Anakin makes claims/blames that Obi-Wan is "jealous" and is "holding (Anakin) back!" Yet we don't see ANY of this. It seems to come out of nowhere.

Contrast this to the Han/Luke dynamic from Episode 4 to Episode 5:

The foundation of Luke, Han, and Leia's relationships/friendships with each other is clearly established in ANH. Furthermore, Han and Luke don't even bicker in ESB. The movie opens illustrating that Han and Luke are the same friends they were after Han saved Luke during the Battle of Yavin.


There is an inherent risk with advancing an episodic, serial, narrative ahead several years. With both AOTC and TFA we are asked to take offscreen developments/changes of, character, plot, and galactic developments in stride.

 

If you accept that ROTS does a good job portraying their strong friendship, then what's your problem?

Your hang-up seems to be around the fact that AOTC didn't portray them having the exact same kind of strong friendship, but rather portrayed an earlier phase of their relationship which was more troubled. Why is this a problem for you? We know from ROTJ that Obi-Wan had problems training him. AOTC shows us these problems.

Han and Luke's evolving relationship isn't central to the plot of the original trilogy. All you need to know about Luke and Han to understand the story in each movie is that they're friends, and possibly that Han is like an older brother to Luke.

Anakin and Obi-Wan relationship is far more complicated. It is not simply the case that they are friends. They are more than friends. They are teacher and student, they are father and son, they are brothers with a tempestuous history. The movies had to portray all of this.

 

Yes, and the way that Lucas went about this was unsatisfactory to myself and others. Which is why we're all in a thread talking about how we would have done it differently.

I understand that you like the PT as it is, but some of us don't and so we're talking about it. Your rebuttals are unnecessary. No one is going to take your PT films and change them. We're not George Lucas.

@jaimestarr Thank you for understanding what I was trying to get across and also wording it better than I had.

 

Yet, their relationship is still (largely) better written/portrayed/developed than Anakin and Obi-Wan. If anything this is an indictment of what we saw in the prequels. The only film that really captured/developed the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship in the Prequels was ROTS. That movie made me believe it when Obi-Wan told Anakin he loved him. Episodes 1 and 2...not so much.

Yet, the movies largely didn't. Episode 1 featured Anakin being discovered with/bonding with Qui-Gon. Episode 2 featured Anakin being resentful/jealous of Obi-Wan for no apparent reason. Again, it wasn't really until Episode 3 that it was actually shown that Obi Wan and Annie have the relationship/complications you describe.

Lastly, I think you are disregarding the nuances and genuineness of Han and Luke's dynamic as if that somehow elevates/excuses the fact that the Prequel Trilogy doesn't go as far to show the same development of the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship.

If comparing these two relationships/friendships is (as you are suggesting) comparing apples and oranges...that's a fair take. Yet, it doesn't change the fact that the Han and Luke relationship is (mostly) better written/developed/portrayed.

 

Regardless of "apples to oranges" we are SHOWN the relationship (whatever it may be) between the OT cast. Yet we are only TOLD about the relationship in the PT. We skip so much development that the information is given to the audience through dialogue as opposed to body language and on screen chemistry.

George Lucas flat out says at the end of the AOTC commentary that his goal for the PT was to show how a good person (Anakin) goes bad and yet Lucas skipped over almost all of that development between TPM and AOTC. By the time we get to see Anakin again in AOTC, he's already arrogant, mean spirited, disrespectful, and ends up killing a bunch of Tusken Raiders. So if "showing how a good person goes bad" was Lucas' thesis statement, IMHO he failed.

 

Agreed.

 

I will admit that Star Wars is sort of built on the foundation that characters may just, for lack of a better word, CHANGE off screen. And if you're the type of person who doesn't really mind that then I can understand why it's not a big deal. But to me, I hate it when a character is one way and then we're just told in dialogue that they changed. It sort of happens to Luke going from TESB to ROTJ. It happens with Anakin going from TPM to AOTC and arguably going from AOTC to ROTS as well. It also definitely happens with Luke by the time we get to TLJ.

I just find it to be lazy writing when we learn, through dialogue, that someone just acts differently now because of things that happened off screen. I mean, anyone can write that. It takes little talent to write a few scenes of someone being good and wholesome, then have a title card say FIVE YEARS LATER and then have a character just state, "Oh man, I can't believe kind-hearted so-and-so went on a murderous rampage. Gee, they sure did change."

 

As from the other thread that is appreciated and understood but also as per that thread people who think otherwise can both counter those points as well as trying to see exactly what is it that you do want and what you perceive that Lucas didn't do.

I'd say that is part of the fun of this and other fan forums. To exchange views and ideas on how the movies were made. As for "like" and "dislike" that is one of the things that I find so fascinating.

I recall once talking with someone who gave their entire rundown of what they would have liked in the PT. When it was over I figured they pretty much had the story of the movies 90-95% the same and of that 5-10% difference that they perceived was actual change I would say it was something like less than 5%.

The point is what it said (maybe without them entirely appreciating it) was that they were actually quite happy with them but those few things they wanted were so important to them that they believed they were a lot bigger changes then they probably were.

 

I guess I'd have to ask why you feel it necessary to counter someone's point about something that is subjective. If I told you I didn't like the taste of eggs, why counter that? Why not just accept it? No one is in here saying that no one else can enjoy eggs, just that we don't care for them.

 

Except that Luke and Han's relationship doesn't "develop" as such. At best it forms in ANH, very arguably out of nowhere in a handful of scenes then it's done and over with. They are best friends and that's that. Nothing at all happens in the next two movies to change or develop that. They just are that.

Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship distinctly developed from TPM to AOTC to ROTS. From Master/Apprentice, Father/Son to Brothers to Brother vs Brother.

Without AOTC foundation then ROTS can't work as it does. If Obi-Wan and Anakin were just presented in the Luke and Han mode then all those important scenes throughout that movie either can't happen at all or happen the way they did. Anakin has to be the young pupil that wants power as part of the mix. He can't simply be Anakin the hero Jedi who is best friends with Obi-Wan from the start and always.

This would be akin to watching Luke and Han in ANH and TESB then in ROTJ out of nowhere Luke betrays Han and the Rebellion because he decides out of nowhere to join the Sith. Sidious doesn't need to tempt him at all. He just does it from nothing.

Well for one because it's a discussion forum built on that very premise. Secondly because it's rather fascinating to talk to someone whose subjective point of view of an objective presentation (the movie itself) is so completely different than one's own.

IIRC didn't you say that there is only a hint of friendship between Obi-Wan and Anakin in ROTS? Obviously that is your view yet I could (and have) written pages and pages on that friendship's presentation in the movie and how it relates to the previous two (particularly AOTC).

Well for that I wouldn't but this is a Star Wars movie we are talking about on a Star Wars Forum that is built around discussion of these movies.

 

Here's what I always tell people. I go off of what Lucas says he was aiming for versus what I see on screen. If Lucas wanted me to see Anakin and Obi-Wan as friends who drifted apart then TPM should have established their relationship (as opposed to establishing one between Anakin and Qui-Gon). AOTC should have shown what it took to cause Anakin to do something dark side related (his mom dying and him being too late to stop it) and then ROTS showing their friendship fall apart.

Instead we go from TPM establishing nothing between the two of them.
AOTC establishing that they don't like each other because of things that we don't see, only hear about.
ROTS establishing that they're now good buddies (Again, for reasons we don't see) and then they have a falling out.

And if that's a good enough dynamic for you, fine. For me though, that has got to be the laziest way to convey that to an audience. Lucas literally just changes how their dynamic is from film to film. All of the meat of their relationship happens between films and not in the films. How Anakin acts in AOTC is one heck of a gear shift from how he acted in TPM. It would have been great to see HOW that happened instead of just being told that it did happen and I need to accept it. We're told that Anakin just became arrogant and to accept it because he has to become Darth Vader.

...but you're in a thread about one specific idea. It'd be like going into an egg forum, picking the one thread about people who don't like Devilled eggs and trying to counter their points.

 

Yes, and I'm here explaining why I think your re-writes are unsatisfactory compared to the original material.

What do we skip exactly? We end TPM with Anakin being placed under the care of a young man who resented him until very recently changing his mind as a result of his master's dying wish. We start AOTC with Obi-Wan and Anakin in a difficult father-son/teacher-student relationship. What did we miss?

You don't think Anakin ever demonstrates that he's a good person in the PT? Not even when he's repeatedly risking his life to save people and in service to the Republic? What would it take to show that he's a good person, in your opinion? That he not display the normal traits of a teenager in the movie where he's a teenager?

Also, I'd still like to see the context for Lucas describing Anakin and Obi-Wan as "old friends" in AOTC. I have a feeling that if he does, there's more to it than just that.

 

Why? I'll be honest. I don't care and the thread isn't about me personally, so... why? Like, this is getting awkward. You are consistently showing up in threads that I've already been posting in and suddenly bombarding me with responses. I'm sorry you're not pleased with my ideas, but they're my ideas and this is the thread for them. There's no need for a rebuttal. It seems like you just like being argumentative with me whenever you notice I've posted in a thread somewhere. It's getting weird.

 

I think it's weird how you keep making it personal whenever I respond to you. No one else does that, so from where I'm sitting you're the one who seems to have the problem. You could always just use the Ignore function, but apparently you choose not to. That's okay with me, I don't have a problem with you. In fact I like you and I enjoy conversing with you. I'm sorry that you don't like me.

 

This is bogus. Han and Luke's relationship definitely develops and changes It's done very economically, but it's a clearly developed progression:

At first, Han and Luke are mistrusting and contentious to each other right off the bat in ANH:

Han: "...who's gonna fly it kid, you?" Luke: "You bet I could. I'm not such a bad pilot myself! We don't have to sit here and listen..."

Later, though much bickering/banter occurs, Han and Luke build trust towards each other due to the heroics involved in rescuing Leia.

Then, the Luke/Han relationship takes a hit when Han collects his rewards and refuses to help the rebellion attack the Death Star.

Finally, Han cements the bond/friendship with Luke when saves Luke in the Death Star trench.

We see each of these stages of development (as well as the nuances of the change) on screen in the first film. Furthermore, this relationship evolves with each film.

Notice, by the end of ROTJ Han refers to Skywalker as "Luke" and not "kid." This is showing (not telling) us that Han now views Luke as an equal. This signifies to us that Han no longer views Luke as the fresh off the farm, inexperienced, youth as he once was. Han respects Luke, his abilities, and even this notion of "The Force."

This is different than what occurs with Obi-Wan and Anakin in the PT.

It wasn't developed/shown onscreen though. The Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship largely evolves offscreen and is largely told to us rather than shown. Consider:

In Episode 1, Anakin and Obi-Wan barely interact. We are told Obi-Wan is his teacher through dialogue, Obi-Wan: "Council has given me permission to train you..."

Yet we are not shown this teacher/student relationship. Nor do we see it evolve from that to a father/son dynamic in the next film.

In Episode 2, the film kicks off with Obi and Anakin bickering. Again, we are told they are like father/son through dialogue...
Anakin: "Don't say that, you are the closest thing I have to a father."

Yet, this bond isn't really shown through actions, nor developed onscreen. Also, as I have stated, Anakin has resentment towards Obi-Wan that seemingly comes out of nowhere. Anakin says Obi Wan is jealous and is holding (Anakin) back, yet we don't see evidence of either of these.

In Episode 3, this is where words finally meets actions. We not only hear Obi-Wan tell Anakin that he loves him and that they are brothers, but we actually see this bond and the fracturing of it. That said, this new brotherly dynamic is there from the beginning of Episode 3. It's not something that we witnessed develop on screen during the films.

Again: The bulk of the development/evolution of the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship occurs offscreen. This is in stark contrast to Han and Luke's relationship. We see this relationship evolve before our eyes.

Disagree. As I said, Episode 3 is the film that handles this relationship the best. You can watch this film and instantly get the dynamic (and nuances) of Obi-Wan/Anakin's relationship without having to have seen the previous films. Hell, Obi-Wan gives you their backstory in one efficient bit of dialogue:

"You are strong and wise, Anakin, and I am very proud of you. I have trained you since you were a small boy. I have taught you everything I know. And you have become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be, and you have saved my life more times than I can remember."

I don't know what this hypothetical has to do with the point you are making. We are discussing the (lack of) onscreen development of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship, not the destruction* of it.

*Which is handled brilliantly in Episode 3. You don't agree?

Funny thing is, this is good enough for me. Is it as well done as it could be? No. Yet, I always tend to look at Star Wars a space opera serials made for youth. I find these kind of lapses charming and inherent to the pulpy roots embedded in the DNA of Star Wars....rather than poor film making.

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I couldn't imagine the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship being depicted in another manner. It feels spot on to me, I definitely get the feeling of a friendship that also has its bumps, which is very understandable given Anakin's path to the Jedi order. What we see throughout the PT feels way more naturalistic and developed to me than a Han/Luke or Finn/Poe. Definitely one of the SW sections in least need of a rewrite.

 

Do me a favor?

Compare and contrast Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship (and the development of it) in Episode 1 to ...

...the development of Han/Luke relationship in Episode 4...

....and /or the development of Finn/Poe relationship in Episode 7.

Considering your viewpoint on this, I am interested to see what you come up with.

 

Sorry, I'm not accepting assignments. Especially those that intentionally try to limit the parameters of my already stated opinion.

 

I'm not sure I'm limiting the parameters of anything. You said:

I am simply wondering what about Anakin/Obi-Wan seems more naturalistic to you. Episode 4 provides the foundation and development of the Luke/Han relationship. Episode 7 provides the foundation and development of the Finn/Poe relationship.

In Episode 1, Obi-Wan and Anakin are introduced, yet we are given no insight into how they feel about each other as they have minimal interactions. In Episode 1, we never get to see how Anakin and Obi-Wan form a bond or come to like each other, or come to view each other as father/son.

Suddenly, in Episode 2, they are a bickering duo that has a rich decade long backstory of adventures/heroics that developed this relationship and we (the audience) weren't privy to ANY of it.

Point being: perhaps it would have been more ideal/naturalistic for Obi-Wan to be in the Qui-Gon role and have more agency in the discovering/advocating/and training of Anakin. After all, this is what the OT suggested the relationship/story was.

Instead, TPM shows us that Anakin is this burden that Qui-Gon puts on Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan takes on Anakin out of guilt. What Obi-Wan really wanted to do was to have ditched this kid, and left him on Tatooine in the 1st place.

 

Everything. There's nothing that particularly interests me in the other two friendships I talked about. Luke and Han is better done than Finn and Poe but they both boil down to a friendship being forged in the midst of action, and that's pretty much it. Anakin/Obi-Wan just works on a deeper level for me, feels more like real people forming a relationship out of complicated circumstances and all that comes with in both a positive and negative sense. And TPM gives me all the context I need for the meat of the relationship in AOTC and ROTS to work perfectly, so again, no rewrites for me.

 

I understand what you are saying. Yet there is a difference between preference and function. No? Anakin and Obi-Wan works for me and is interesting to me as well. Yet, I wouldn't categorize the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship as more naturalistic and developed. Though you may not find Poe/Finn or Luke/Han interesting, we do get to see the development of these relationships played out onscreen within the context of the story.

Again, we rarely get to see the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship forming/developing at all. Meaning, with the exception of Revenge of the Sith, the development of their relationship occurs mainly offscreen. Does it not?

 

I have to wonder if anyone would see Anakin and Obi-Wan as friends in AOTC had they not already heard Obi-Wan in ANH state they were.

They feel like two people who don't like each other, but keep getting put on work assignments together.

Plus, if the point was for them to be at odds in AOTC, but friends by the time ROTS starts, I think a lot more could have been done to build a friendship inAOTC. Even their final conflict in the movie (against Dooku) is meant to show how they DON'T work well together.

Imagine an AOTC where Anakin is resentful of Obi-Wan and they don't get along well, but then by the end Anakin decides to go to Geonosis without Padme prompting him, even against orders from the council, and Obi-Wan is legitimately thankful instead of being snarky about it. Then the two of them share fun banter through the final action sequences and when they finally fight Dooku, they're actually doing well together and Dooku has to make an effort to get them separated during the fight instead of Anakin just flying off the handle.

There are ways of SHOWING a friendship blossom instead of just starting the next movie with, "they became good friends off screen".

Plus, it's really good to establish that their friendship blossomed BECAUSE Anakin defied the council. It would establish that Obi-Wan would develop a tendency to defend Anakin, even when he shouldn't, because of what happened on Geonosis. Then Obi-Wan keeps doing this in ROTS, and it has, obviously, disastrous effects.

After all, Obi-Wan does state he failed to train Anakin properly. In this case, we actually SEE IT.

 

Simply seeing something "play out" is rather meaningless if the acting doesn't work for the viewer or the writing leaves much to be desired. Preference is derived from function, function derived from all elements that make a film a film, from script to dialogue to the way an actor physically stands in a certain scene. I see exactly what I need from Anakin/Obi-Wan and how they interact. The story is already at its height of effectiveness, largely because of those two characters and how they play off one another.

 

Anakin and Obi-Wan aren't friends (yet) during the events of AOTC, at that point they are merely a master and apprentice.

The friendship doesn't really come until the war.