A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

Comparing TLJ Luke - Ben to Legends Luke - Jacen is interesting and much food for fanfights. But more interesting I think is, what would have happened had Legends solution been used in TLJ, and TLJs solution used in Legends?

Imagine Rey killing Kylo at the end of TLJ after he killed Snoke and they briefly fought as one. Ben/Kylo dead, Leia feels it on Crait and Luke feels it on Ach-To. What then?
-would Rey take the First Order throne and be approached by Palpatine, having fallen herself due to killing someone and having been abused as a weapon by Luke?
-Would Rey return to the Resistance as if nothing happened? Would the Resistance and Leia fear her for going along with such a decision?
-Would Luke still refuse to train her or return?

And the other scenario:

In LOTF, Jaina Solo is about to head to Jacen to face him, as Luke reconsiders and appears out of the blue himself standing between Jacen and his goal. Luke duels Jacen and Jaina fears for Luke staying in the light despite being glad he took the burden off of her. And with the major battle won due to Jacen being stalled by duelling Luke, Jacen would stab Luke with his lightsaber only to discover he is fake, a Doppelganger projection from afar (as in TLJ). Jaina leaves as Jacen finally has lost everyone, unredeemed. But he is alive and out there still. What would happen next?
-Jacen dethroned and without allies as Abeloth's ascend is imminent
-The Jedi and Skysolos being wary of his return and blaming Abeloth shenangians on him as he too notices them and tries to deflect the wrong accusations as well as find the true source
-Jacen instead of Krayt having to join with the Jedi to defeast Abeloth in the end?


Interesting scenarios. Thougths?

 

It's always possible, but it is always hard.

And as long as someone is living, there will always be conflict within a person.

The book even shows Caedus as finally finding a line he refuses to cross, he decides sacrificing Allana (and Tenel Ka) are NOT worth it.

You can, with time, give a person opportunities to erode their fanaticism. A fanatic isn't a different species, an "other."

Their "attempts" to redeem Jacen in LOTF are as bad as Obi-wan's supposed "attempt" to redeem Anakin on Mustafar. If they had behaved instead like how Han, Leia, and Luke did in the ST, perhaps Jacen would have had more wavering and a more visible conflict.

 

I like this reasoning because it's the one thing I find always frustrating when we wanna compare canon and legends.

Canon and Legends have very different contexts for how the same ideas went down.

The universe of Star Wars is different so the way these ideas happened are different and thus the way to handle them are different

 

Unlikely.

Leis attempts to reason with Jacen during the Centerpoint Ambush. He is completely deaf to her pleas. Luke tries to reach Jacen above Fondor. He spares his life, holding back when he could have killed him easily. Jacen still refuses to turn away.

Obi-Wan and Padme both tried to reach Vader. He rebuffed both of their efforts with violence. It’s only when Luke shows Vader mercy and is subsequently attacked by Palpatine that Vader realizes just how wrong he was. His son is better than him. His son loves him enough to spare his life.

That’s why he turns on Palpatine.

The only chance for a similar fate to happen to Jacen was when he was on his last legs in his second fight with Jaina. At that point, Jaina couldn’t show him a sliver of mercy because to do so would have meant her own death. Caedus had no conflict at the end when it came to Jaina. He tried to kill her multiple times.

Leia on the other hand, might have had a chance to reach her son. She would have been the only one who stood a chance of reaching Jacen, as she did with Ben.

But Legends Leia was too attached to Han, who hated Caedus at the end. Legends Leia was also much more ruthless than her Canon counterpart. She was willing to see her last surviving son die if it meant putting an end to his madness.

That isn’t to say that she doesn’t regret it later. She’s filled with sorrow and remorse. But she put the good of the Galaxy ahead of her personal desires. Which is what Legends Leia had been doing for decades.

 

I think Canon Leia would have seen the Resistance through to Kylo's death if need be.

She wasn't personally going to find him and call him.back from the edge for 6 years prior to TFA. She believed he had that spark of light within, but she was ready and willing to fight him to the end.

I dont think Legends and Canon Leia are as far apart as Canon and Legends Luke. Same with Han. Canon Han taking off after Ben's fall isn't all that far removed from Legends Han abandoning his wife and kids to live the smuggler's life with Droma after Chewie died.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Leia set the Resistane not up to fight anybody but to give people the means to defend themselves and to keep alive and save what she loved, the ideals and core of the New Republic. The more the Resistance became a Rebellion to fight Kylo, the less she actively took part in it as evident in TROS.

Also talking redemption, Luke in ROTJ, Mara in MotS, even Cay Quel Droma in the distant past, they all were willing to die to redeem their opponent. Well Cay didn't but Luke, Mara and others deactivated their weapons offering the enemy their life and proofed that the enemy could not kill them, would not go through with it. Yet neither Jaina, nor others were willing to go so far as to die for Jacen Solo to return to the Light. That is why they could never redeem him and he had to return himself to the light in a different way. If people arn't banking on their trust that redemption is possible and the good still alive within the opponent as Luke did in ROTJ, they give in to their doubts and loose.

TFA's scene with Han and Ben is special in that Ben could have returned there with his dad but didn't. Han did everything right. And one feels and notices clearly that there is more to Ben's role than a simple "I did bad and need redemption". That part of him got redeemed by Han ever since as Snoke noticed in TLJ. The other part of Ben that did not get redeemed yet was the one that felt it was his destiny to stay, that as a Chosen One, like Luke once considered him to be, he had to walk both paths and had unfinished business before he could return. Killing Snoke should have been that unfinished business he did not know yet what it was back then (Like Vader's unfinished business was right in front of him and quickly done aka throw the Emperor down). But even after that, Ben faced a choice: Leave to fight the massive FO under a new leadership as he just cut off one head to be replaced by others. Or stay and take over himself where he has a chance to guide it as a Chosen One Ruler. The fight over the Skywalker saber though complicated this as the saber choosing him would ensure him of his Chosen One role. But it chose neither him nor Rey but both and hence split. Not yet understanding how or why, they set out to rejoin their respective sides only to resolve their Dyad much later during TROS.

The same situation in Legends with Jaina and Jacen was different and yet similiar. Jacen too believed in his destiny and while redeeming in part to save what he loved, he never gave up believing that his destiny was right, just admitting the methods were maybe wrong. In that regard, would he have killed Jaina? I doubt he could have gone through with it had she stopped fighting to offer her life. Or he would have regretted it Ulic style after he killed his brother Cay. Maybe like Ben Solo with Han he'd have needed to kill her to longterm heal and redeem after his unfinished business was dealt with as destined. We'll never know now.


Part of me also still wonders what would have happened had TLJ's end played out slightly different. Imagine Kylo's FO forces at Crait about to enter the base as Luke's delay was up and Luke had vanished into the Force. Leia's allies were rushing out the backdoor but not gone yet as right then and there Palpatine reveals himself to the galaxy as in TROS crawl. Everyone hears it, cut to credits and fans wonder for Episode IX for a long time. Will Kylo and Leia unite against him? Will it be a threeway battle? Will Kylo join him?
Maybe even with Broomboy as an after credits scene now seen in a new light if he is Palpatine returned hehe...

 

Imagine an Ep 9 in which a faction of the FO, perhaps with Kylo, oppose the Sith Eternal fleet and the movie is about Kylo and Rey resolving their Dyad, as Finn leads fellow deserters like Jannah in attempting to deprogram FO troopers to stand against the Sith Eternal.

Yes, it would definitely be even more like SWTOR and the whole Zakuul thing, but...

IG: @jedisufism

 

I took a month away from Facebook bridging April and May, when I came back I started getting suggested posts in groups that are highly anti-ST. The more I get exposed to those sorts of memes, the more convinced I am that people deliberately misremember and misrepresent what happened in the movie. Especially as regards the Luke and Ben scenes.

Like, why do they take Kylo's recollection and his statements later in the film as reliable truth? Seems rather silly to me.

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I feel the same way when people think the message of the film is "It's time for the Jedi to End" and "Let the past die" as the themes of the movie.

People do realize that Luke and Kylo are supposed to wrong right?

I mean I know it's hard to except that Luke is supposed to be wrong...but he is wrong.

 

We can thank the trailers for that. The same way "This is a rebellion, isn't it? I rebel." is the big pop culture line from Rogue One, and it didn't even make it into the film!

 

This post is uncannily prescient. Especially since it was made back in 2018.

 

This is actually one of the few things me and this user ever agreed on. Shared universe so....When has context mattered.

 

The "Force Skyping" that happens between Kylo Ren and Rey...where else has that appeared before in Star Wars? I know of KOTOR2 off the top of my head, but I feel like it was more common than that. Was it?

 

As a precursor, Luke and Leia in ESB? Or the Twin bond between Jaina and Jacen?

 

Did the twin bonds actually go to the extent where they could talk to each other and see one another's surroundings? The impression I get is that Jaina and Jacen can get a vague sense of when the other is in trouble, and maybe get some fleeting images of what the other is seeing...but not like Kreia coming into the Exile's head and talking telepathically.

 

A good example of the "talking telepathically, as a two-way communication, from across the galaxy" style of communication in Legends, was The Emperor and Mara Jade, in various Zahn novels and short stories set before the Battle of Endor.

 

Today's Vanity Fair article provides, at last, a concrete, official update on the status of the Rian Johnson trilogy. NOT cancelled, but definitely on-hold pending Johnson's availability following his commitment to Netflix:

""We have a road map,” Kennedy says, although Lucasfilm’s big-screen return is unlikely to follow the same relentless cadence as before. A movie from Jojo Rabbit’s Taika Waititi and 1917 screenwriter Krysty Wilson-Cairns will likely arrive first, with Rogue Squadron from Wonder Woman director Patty Jenkins further off. Is it true that Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige will produce a Star Wars film? “I would love to see what movie he might come up with,” Kennedy says. “But right now, no, there isn’t anything specifically.” And the trilogy from The Last Jedi’s Rian Johnson that was announced five years ago? Back-burnered. “Rian has been unbelievably busy with Knives Out and the deal that he made at Netflix for multiple movies.”"
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Interestingly, Feige's film is the one that actually seems to be defunct - if it ever existed in the first place. A whole lot of outlets reported it, and even attached a director to it, but Kennedy's comments here almost make it sound like there never even was a Feige film in the works. On the other hand, the writer of that non-existent film did an interview with Den of Geek recently talking about how great it is to work with Feige and Lucasfilm, etc, so it's a bit confusing. (On the other other hand, the very same DoG article confidently mis-reports the status of the Johnson trilogy, so who even knows. At the end of the day sticking to official sources for news and disregarding rumors continues to be the best policy.)

 

No rumours? But how will @Fredrik Vallestrand spend his time without them to post?

 

I be fine.

 

It's really funny that there are TLJ haters that latched onto a continuity flub in the Preatorian Guard fight, while there are numerous flubs in ROTS saber fights. Obi-Wan and Anakin inexplicably switching sabers, Sidious having Anakin's hilt long before Anakin is in his office.

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Twitter inspired me yesterday to make this...

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That's what they do. Focus on the flubs that are a part of a movie they don't like and ignore the flubs in movies they do like.

Hopefully there still aren't too many people though investing good chunks of their day to hate on a film from 2017.