PT Why Yoda doesn't beat Sidious

Again with the weights. It’s not Sidious fault that Yoda is small.

That’s like in the NFL, Tampa Bay won the Super Bowl because they were bigger which in physics makes them stronger!!! Then all the Chiefs fans can say….ummm ….well if the Chiefs were bigger then Physics can help them out and would be Champs!!!

Cmon!! If you have to nitpick on everything so that Yoda should have won it still didn’t answer how Sidious KNOCKED HIM OUT COLD in the BEGINNING and why he never pursue Sidious after ROTS.

 

If the novelisation supports you, unambiguously, then quote it.


He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now—
And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead.
The chosen one was here.
Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish.
His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.
Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.
Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.
Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.
Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.
"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head.
His eyes smoked with hate.
"Fool," he said.
He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.


At least according to Palpatine - the fear that Mace senses, right before the fight turns against Palpatine and Palpatine's lightsaber is halved - isn't Palpatine's own. Seems to me like a hint that the sudden turnaround is Palpatine sensing Anakin's fear, and making use of it to fool Mace.

 

if read before that, it tells us using vaapad mace is winning, or at least not losing. BEFORE anakin arrived.
why im saying 'at least not losing', is because the fight wasnt over, but during that time, while using vaapad, mace is on his path to victory.

now after anakin arrived, palpatine used him to kill windu. but i see nothing that tells us that palpatine was a better combatant. all i see is that palpatine is better at manipulation.

 

Which is not the question - the question is - did Mace actually beat Palpatine, swordsmanship-wise, or did Palpatine throw the fight? And since we know Palpatine has two lightsabers and can fight with two lightsabers (TCW season 5 Mandalorian arc) and here, chose to only use one lightsaber (using the second against Yoda) it strongly suggests that he is deliberately handicapping himself.

 

hmmm... what ?
now MY head hurts...

 

First of all, I am one of the people who believes Sidious is simply too strong for Yoda to handle and I don't think Windu is as strong as Sidious in normal circumstances as well. I don't believe Yoda or Windu has a big chance against Sidious under normal circumstances.

However, I don't care who it is, no one is going to toy with Windu, no one.

Windu is confirmed as no.2 most powerful Jedi in the entire order, only second to Yoda. And the Prequel trilogy fighting scenes director Nick Gillard also confirmed that Windu is tier 8 fighter, bordering tier 9, close to Sidious's tier 9 and Yoda's tier 9. In Gillard's tiering system; Tier 8 fighters are Sith lords such as Maul and Dooku, or Prime Obi-Wan Kenobi in Episode 3, tier 7 fighters are skilled Jedi Masters or very skilled Jedi knights like Kenobi or Anakin in Episode 1 and 2. Windu is not only superior to other skilled tier 7 Jedi Masters, he is even slightly better than powerful Sith lords such as Maul, and Dooku, and slightly better than another powerful Jedi such as Prime Obi-Wan Kenobi, with the right mindset and with the right amplification, Windu can possibly disarm Sidious and put him in that position, not even mention Sidious is not stupid enough to risk his life against a very powerful and a very dangerous Jedi master such as Windu. Windu is one of the most powerful Force users ever, so much that it has been stated he is top 5 most powerful Jedi of all times in the entire history.

That's one thing, the other thing is, after Sidious got disarmed by Windu, Sidious unleashed a very powerful Force lightning that nearly bend the lightsaber of Windu, and made Windu scream in pain, there was no guarantee that in that moment Windu could deflect Sidious's powerful Force lightning that bend even Windu's lightsaber, Windu was also getting partially hit by Sidious's Force lightning, and Windu was screaming in pain because of that, Windu could lose the control of his lightsaber in any moment and he could die due to Sidious's Force lightning.

Sidious wasn't acting that he lost at all, he clearly tried to kill Windu with that Force lightning attack after Anakin arrived, and he come close to killing Windu without even needing Anakin's help. That was not an act or a chesspiece, that's what makes me want to go facepalm whenever Sidious fans says that Sidious pretended to lose against Windu when its obvious he didn't, and again, you might believe I am biased or I don't like Sidious or something like that, I repeat again that I believe Yoda and Windu can't defeat Sidious in normal circumstances, the moment Windu managed to pull that victory was where Windu was stronger than usual, he was amped due to other factors that's also been stated in the novel.

Lucas also stated that you need to be either Yoda or Windu to compete with Sidious.

George Lucas: ''You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor.''
--- Source: The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith (2005)

Windu was at a level that could poses threat to Sidious in terms of power, that's also the words of the director, Windu isn't some another Jedi master, he is above other Jedi masters. Windu is even above Prime Obi-Wan Kenobi according to Lucas.

 

OR, his other lightsaber wasnt on him as it was just a backup.

 

Given that it's afternoon when he tells Anakin (knowing Anakin will bring the Jedi to arrest him) and evening when the Jedi actually turn up, that's more than enough time to put his second lightsaber away, so that the fight will be a bit more even, so that he can be convincingly disarmed.

 

My point is you have to stop using weight classes as your excuse for Yoda losing.

If Yoda thinks he only lost because physics wasn’t at his side THEN he should find a way at all cost to even up and stop Palpatine!! It doesn’t have to be right away….he can regroup and fight another day!! BUT NOPE !! He deliberately hid in Tatooine to wait for Luke to grow up so they can train him. Yeah 20 years is not bad for the whole galaxy to be subjugated by the Sith.

“Wait I will” ~Yoda

 

i actually thought you might say that. but my answer still the same.

at the end of the day, he did not use it.
thats all there is to know. anything else we say is just other factors that we invent and maybe never there in the first place.

if you want to know about the second lightsaber, ask GL. but one thing is clear, he wouldnt risk his life, he would use any advantage he could from the start if he had the possibility.

 

His goal is to turn Anakin - and to turn Anakin, he needs Mace to do something unacceptable enough that Anakin thinks "Hey, the Sith aren't so different from the Jedi" - for him to attempt an extrajudicial execution - a murder. And for Mace to attempt a murder, Palpatine needs to have lost the fight.

 

i cant stop using it because its always there. whether its in the weight of an object liften with the force or during a fight, mass matters. its part of nature. its a constant that cannot be ignored.

.. again...
according to events in the movie-
yoda tells obi-wan to split up for the fights.
obi-wan talks to padme, finds out child.
yoda fights palpatine. obi-wan fights anakin.
yoda flee. obi-wan slashes anakin.
both meet.
obi-wan tells yoda about kids- yoda finds out first time. thats AFTER the fights.
both give up the children to different people on different planets to different classes.
both waited until they grow up, making sure the emperor wont get to them.
luke trains.

 

Again…..

Wether Yoda found out BEFORE OR AFTER the fights THAT ANAKIN HAD KIDS…..Yoda since he can beat Palpatine ACCORDING TO YOU…..Why would he go into Hiding instead of finding the right moment after ROTS to confront Palpatine again?

“Definitely can beat the Emperor, I could. But first, the whole galaxy must suffer for decades while hide, I will.” ~Yoda

 

YES YES YES!!! I LOVE YOUR FIRST PARAGRAPH!!!! Listen to him cantthinkofone!!!

I’ll also give you that Mace has skills BUT have to disagree with you that Palpatine didn’t Set It UP.

I’ve already gave you my stances on the Mace vs Palpatine thread because we will just end up hijacking this thread meant for Yoda and Sidious. Lol

 

all i have is a guess, which is that palpatine was hard to get to after that fight. once he declared himself emperor, he could make legions to protect him and train the best of the best to be at his side at all times (which he did), he can also keep on moving whenever a threat is spotted.
the only reason luke could reach him, is because palpatine basically came to him.

all we can do is guess about this because we dont have anything to support it. GL ended his saga with yoda and obi-wan exile without further detailed information in the OT of this subject.

 

If we're taking the novelizations as canon; I believe in the ESB novel (or maybe the radio drama), after Luke jumps, Vader levitates him back up to his level, before letting him fall...just to show his power. This was also a deleted scene in the movie, that was at least partially filmed.

 

I thought it was exhaust from the ventilation shafts that blew Luke upwards so Vader could see him and then dropped him back down. But I do recall that scene being partially filmed as well.

 

Let's put levitation aside for a minute. Why couldn't Yoda simply use his enhanced Jedi muscles to pull himself up in ROTS? The way he was jumping and flipping and whirling, you'd think he'd be able to manage a simple one armed pull-up. Hell, even I used to be able to do those, and I'm not a Jedi master.

 

I though Vader levitated him, but you may be right. Anyone know for sure?

 

I checked the fifth-draft script and I was right: it was the wind blowing Luke back up rather than Vader doing it just to show off.

 

Yeah we do. The answers are there.

First of all, Yoda easily got through at the HEIGHT of ORDER 66. Years after ROTS, it will be much easier for Yoda to sneak in for his rematch when no one is hunting for any Jedi. So that’s not an excuse.

Secondly, Yoda TOLD BAIL ORGANA HIMSELF when Organa saved him which is way before he even knew Luke existed….telling him….that he decided to go into EXILE AFTER FAILING. At that point he already know THAT HE WILL NOT BE SEEKING FOR ANY KIND OF REMATCH with the Dark Lord.

And lastly which is pretty moot at this point because those 2 examples above solidifies that Yoda doesn’t want any part of Palpatine in the future. But cmon!!! You really think Yoda and Obi-Wan is saying to themselves…we will hide for 20 years because it will be easier for Luke to pass through security because 20 years from now Palpatine will seek out Luke even though The Sith doesn’t even know Luke even exist Cmon man!!! Let’s sacrifice the whole galaxy for decades because Luke will easily pass through his security ummmm sometime in the future!! LOL

Occam’s Razor!!!! The obvious answer is usually the right one.

Yoda KNOWS ITS NOT HIS DESTINY TO BEAT PALPATINE. Hence why he decided to hide in the first place. Don’t complicate it with your love for Yoda!!

 

Well, that kinda' sucks. It would have been so much better if Vader had done it. Are we sure it's in the book that way?

 

I don't think it'd make much sense for Vader to levitate Luke, come to think of it. In that case why wouldn't he just levitate him back on to the platform and have some Stormtroopers come collect him?

 

It's in keeping with his sense of humor. Vader's a bit of a d*ck.

 

there is no doubt a powerful force user can levitate people, just as they can levitate objects. the question is, can they levitate themselves ? not to my knowledge, every example i saw here is either jumping or gliding using the force to look cool.

lets not go back into levitation because, unlike what some people here think, star wars is not dragon ball z.

he never had the reach. his weight caused him to fly further than palpatine during the blast and his hands are smaller so he had no reach to the balcony.

what you said proves nothing.
and disney's movies and everything in them are not canon. just expensive fan fiction with the stamp "star wars".

what we can see is that even if he somehow yoda went back up, palpatine could just use another lightning to push him down. yoda can block all of those lightnings, but the pushback will always push him back down. its not likely yoda would win on that battlefield. (even if he had his lightsaber, they were equal duelists)

yes,he did say "into exile i must go, failed i have", before he knew about anakin's children (i remember the movie...), which is one of the reasons why we dont have all the details to answer the question why he didnt come back for a rematch. the best i can do is guess: even though yoda would beat palpatine at the right place (not senate), he knows he cant reach palpatine once he arranges an emperor's protection detail, which is why he said that he must go on exile..

but no, he wouldnt trust destiny to destroy the sith on a future generation, but he would entrust the mission on others whom he believes are capable of defeating palpatine with the right training.


EDIT: haha lol i just remembered order 66. yoda is being hunted by every stormtrooper in the galaxy and darth vader. he barely got near him at the first place. that might have been his only chance to finish him off. its possible anakin's children being strong enough is just lucky.