CT what is so great about ESB ?

this is not some kind of hate thread. i just dont get it, why it is claimed to be so great ? i tried it several times. its a good movie, but i cant see what is so incredible about it.

maybe its because im a kid of the prequals, i dont know...

help me out here.

 

@cantthinkofone
TESB is a lot like Ghostbusters. And by that I mean, it shouldn't work... and yet it is perfect.

TESB takes way too long to get started, and yet we love these characters so much, it's completely fine that we just sort of see them doing non-plot related things for close to twenty minutes before the movie even gets going. And then the next twenty feels like an ending to a movie. The Hoth battle feels like a climax and yet we still have another hour and twenty minutes to go.

TESB is both plot and character driven in a way that is almost completely unnoticeable without multiple viewings. I think the plot being tied up in the characters (Vader wants Luke) is the only reason it works so well.

Plus, TESB feels timeless whereas ANH feels like a movie from the 70's and ROTJ feels like a movie from the 80's. Cinematography is on point, everyone's performances are great, the special effects (imho) are the best of the OT. It took everything great about ANH and made it better. It truly is one of the best sequels of all time.

 

To answer the question "what is so great about TESB"...

 

The conflict between Kirk and Khan is legendary.

 

Even as a kid, when I saw it it seemed like a step up from ANH and a movie that was firing on all cylinders. The music (many consider ESB and Superman to be William's masterpieces), the lighting, the editing, the direction, the mature tone, the whip smart screenplay (the banter between Han and Leia and the Luke Yoda and Luke Vader scenes are extraordinary. Talk about subversive. NO ONE saw the father reveal coming, no one saw Han frozen in carbonite (and not rescued), no one saw Luke losing his hand coming, no one was used to such a dark sequel. No one had heard the Imperial March, the love theme, Yoda's theme. No one had seen Yoda, the Emperor, AT-ATs, Cloud City. No one had seen world building like this. There is not a person on earth who could have predicted the story would go in this direction. No one expected Luke to lose to Vader and end up damaged and broken. It broke so many molds and started so many trends. It was so groundbreaking at the time it's almost hard to describe to someone now.

 

@christophero30 pretty much took the words right out of my mouth ... or off my screen ... or from my keyboard ... or whatever.

 

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. ESB is the Citizen Kane of Star Wars films.

 

ANH is the greatest B-movie of all time. TESB is its A-list sequel.

 

They even both have scenes where we cut to an animal making a weird noise during what should be a quiet scene.

 

people need to stop compare star wars to other top-rate classic movies. some movies are just on a different level than any star wars film.
my favorite is revenge of the sith by far. but i would not put it next to those 'on another level films'.

gone with the wind, the great dictator, citizen kane, genteleman's agreement (as jewish person, it truly touched me) and such are just not comparable to star wars.

 

ANH is arguably THE MOST INFLUENTIAL film of all time. It changed just about everything about movies, from how they're made to how they're viewed by an audience. And somehow, miraculously, TESB was even better.

I understand what this franchise has devolved into, but the first two entries are damn-near perfect movies. To say that these two influential classics shouldn't be mentioned alongside other great films makes me think you probably grew up with the bastardized special editions and the PT.

My own $0.02 about George Lucas. He knew he could never recreate something as good as those first films again and so he worsened the originals (and suppressed them from public view) so that the PT would seem on par with the OT. We're all now living in the after effects of that decision.

 

I doubt he intended to do that, but I agree that's what happened.

 

There's sometimes a fear of praising TESB compared to other classic movies because unlike the previously mentioned movies, it deals in fantasy. Unfortunately, movies in the fantasy genre don't tend to get as much credit simply due to the fact that they are seen as "childish" and thus must be of lesser quality.

I have to disagree on this point. The opening of TESB contains very meaningful scenes that flesh out the characters and their dynamics. Han and Leia's rocky relationship is established. Han's friendship with Luke is also established when he risks his life to go out and save Luke. This rescue is also important because it connects to Luke's rash decision to risk his life to save his friends later on in the movie. Since they spend so much of the movie apart it's important to make it clear that Luke and Han aren't just buddies but are willing to risk anything for one another.

 

I meant it takes over twenty minutes for the PLOT to get started.

 

I was getting a different impression from your original comment but oh well

On another note, something else that stands out about TESB is how good the visual storytelling is executed. This one scene is one of my favorites in the series and does such a brilliant job of illustrating Vader's character. I really feel like TESB was the movie that elevated Vader from being just a cool adversary to a much more interesting character.

 

george lucas never made the same movie twice in his life. he isnt making films to satisfy an audience. he is there to tell his stories.

well, thats just like, your opinion, man.

 

He isn't making films at all.

 

I don't think anyone can answer that question for you. If you feel that TESB isn't that great, then I wouldn't rely on others to change your mind. This was your reaction to the film after several viewings. You should just stick to it.

I love TESB, but I don't think it's perfect. I don't know if I can regard it as the best SW film. I don't know if there is a "best SW film". Like the other films, TESB has its flaws. And most fans have a habit of overlooking these flaws and claiming that the movie is perfect.

 

ESB is probably my least favorite of the OT, but it's still great. There's a lot I love about it. The Han/Leia scenes on Hoth are wonderful, the asteroid chase is really great, the Imperial March and Vader throttling people, the carbon freeze scene, the duel (I don't like the father reveal due to Mark's acting), that final shot of Luke and Leia gazing at the galaxy. I haven't even mentioned anything on Dagobah.

 

It's about on par with the other two of its trilogy, which makes it very good, but I don't think ESB is some transcendent masterpiece. I love the grounded start on Hoth, you can almost feel the frigid atmosphere and the stakes seem elevated. While the fighting in ANH is fun it never feels like more than a 70s sci-fi movie. The Hoth stuff feels a lot more "real" by comparison.

After that, though, the film kind of goes elsewhere with all the Han/Leia bicker flirting and Luke's visit to a studio swamp. Suddenly stuff feels a lot more like a movie to me. A poster here once remarked how ESB uses more dry ice than the Ice Capades, and I've never been able to unsee that comment since. I do love most of the Cloud City design, though, and the Vader confrontation brings the emotion even if I'm still not sure if that plot swerve was brilliant or the opposite. The ending is beautiful even though Lando raids Han's closet.

So yeah, good movie, but don't feel pressured to think it's super special.

 

I think the main reason is cinematography. Kirshner rarely would just point and shoot. The majority of the movie was meticulously thought out.

I think TESB was the first sign that Lucas wasn't really worried about how people felt about sequels. Obviously the safe choice would have to done an immediate sequel to ANH with something more in line with ROTJ; characters go off on an adventure and blow up something big at the end. Most sequels are just that thing from the first movie happened again.

TESB decided to focus on the characters and you were either already invested enough or you weren't. And Lucas was fine with that... until it went over budget and didn't make as much as ANH. Then Lucas decided to do an ANH rehash with ROTJ.

I think it's special. I'm only going to list one reason though: cultural impact. TESB became the gold standard for sequels and still was until just recently. (IMO I think the new gold standard for sequels is taking the established narrative and going off the rails with it. That's why we're seeing crazy stuff like Spider-Man: No Way Home and Flashpoint or whatever it's called) TESB set a sequel precedent for 40 years. That's pretty damn impressive.

 

It also matters the order/historical context you see the movies. Like if you see all the Matrix sequels first, you may not see the original as groundbreaking or anything special. The first 2 SW films left a Beatles type impact on moviemaking and culture.

 

I know GL likes to say that no one really ever took Star Wars too seriously and they were panned by critics... but those first two achieved great success and are both still talked about by film critics/historians/etc.

And as a I mentioned above, TESB didn't do as well at the box office as ANH, but it was still the highest grossing movie of 1980; earning more than twice what the second place winner was.

TESB made $209 million
9 to 5 made $103 million

 

ANH was panned by a few prominent highbrow critics but mostly got great reviews. It was nominated for 11 Oscars (including best picture when there was only 5 nominated) and won 7. My classmates all loved ESB. I was in grade school. I can't remember anyone not liking it.