Discussions Unpopular Expanded Universe Opinions

We might have if NJO had been either; more popular (universally) or shorter (it is a long series). Invasion shows a little of a war before the invasion, so does Rouge Planet (in passing).

 

The Old Republic era could be his own franchise separated from Star Wars

 

The TCW version of Ventress is a better character than her old comic book self.

 

I love The Force Unleashed but since the story was unfinished only the first game happend the second game is a holofilm in the New Republic era Galen Marek story ended well with the first game

 

I think the natural ending to the Star Wars universe was the marriage of Luke and Mara portrayed in the Union comics. I think it was the natural ending, because it represents everything that Lucas' two trilogies point to: overcoming dogmas and restoring balance. Thanks to that marriage is highlighted the error of the old Jedi philosophy of the Prequel Era, the main character of the Original Trilogy has a more than dignified ending and the Galaxy manages to finally live in a state of peace. In addition, the Force balance is restored and there are no more Sith, and the Skywalker family will continue to exist (Jacen, Jaina and Anakin were already born).
I think that after the Union comics the authors should have focused on the Old Republic, the Prequel Era and the Dark Times.

 

They kind of did didn't they?

 

No, they wrote the NJO after the Union comics.

 

Its kind of ironic considering Lucas hated Mara and always wanted Luke to remain single.

 

Actually, there’s no evidence that Lucas hated Mara, it’s a cliché. Many people say that, but every time I ask them for specific quotes in which Lucas openly claims to hate Mara, no one is able to answer me

 

I do believe J.W Rinzler on this.
Plus Lucas‘s ST plans, from what we did hear keep Luke celibate.

 

I don’t trust anyone, but George Lucas himself. I'm always very skeptical when I see someone who says he has spoken to him and that he hates something. In my opinion, until George Lucas comes out and says directly what he hates and what he loves, then what people say about his thinking is pure unsubstantiated speculation, also because Lucas has the bad habit of never refuting any of the rumors circulating about his personal opinions, whether these rumors are true or not. I think if Lucas really hated the idea of Luke getting married, then he wouldn't have allowed the Expanded Universe writers to marry him and Mara, since Lucas had the final word about all major events involving OT and PT characters within the EU stories.

There is no evidence that supports the idea that he would put into practice his ideas for the Sequel Trilogy. The fact that he developed ideas for the Sequel Trilogy doesn't mean that he would put them into practice, because every time he was asked what would be the basis of his Sequel Trilogy he always gave a different answer: once he said that the Trilogy would focus on the Midichlorians and the world of the Force; another time he said that the Trilogy would focus on a group of young Jedi Knights belonging Luke's New Order who would lived many adventures around the Galaxy; another time he said that the Trilogy would focus on the building of the New Republic and that Darth Maul would be the enemy. So he didn’t know what he wanted to do and every time he was asked he always gave a different answer, which is why I doubt he would ever put his ideas for the Sequel Trilogy into practice, because he didn’t have stable and solid ideas about it in the first place. Also, in 2005 he declared that Revenge of the Sith would be the last Star Wars movie, so it's possible he wouldn't have made new movies at all.

 

No I mean the comics. Didn't the comics focus on the PT?

 

While i disagree in that i like the old Ventress and her redemption better, lately i've come to accept and appreciate the story TCW Ventress had on it's own right and not in how it compared to her Legends/2003 CW version, her character journey is quite good in the series, even though it sadly gets eclipsed by Maul's presence, and i've come to realize she isn't as weak as i once percieved, she's actually formidable in the TCW version too, just not really consistent in her power and skill, which is something all characters suffer in TCW even Dooku, so it's not fair to just criticize Ventress for that.

@The Emotional Jedi Union and the Hand of Thrawn does feel like an ending to the "movie era" of Star Wars, before going into the darker and complex NJO and Legacy eras, and i have said many times how i wouldn't complain if that was the ending for the franchise, even though i love most of the material that comes after (especially the Legacy comics).

 

Well, I'm not against the existence of the Yuuzhan Vong. I think the existence of an extragalactic species that wants to invade the Galaxy and purify it of all kinds of technology is a very interesting idea, but I think the invasion happened too soon. In my opinion, it would have been better if the invasion and the war had been set in 200 ABY, involving the distant descendants of the Skywalker family. In this way, Luke, Mara, Han, Leia, Jacen, Jaina and Anakin can live the rest of their lives in peace and without getting involved in other great galactic conflicts, and the Galaxy would have plenty of time to rebuild after the disasters of the Galactic Civil War and (partially) even the Clone Wars (since the Empire had not been able to completely repair the damage caused by that war). Don't get me wrong, I accept the NJO books in my personal canon, but I do so reluctantly, as I think the invasion happened too soon. If I had been a good writer, I would have written my own version of the NJO, setting it much further into the future.

 

That’s an interesting premise. I think you could still do stories with Jacen, Jaina and Anakin without having any big wars though. Just have them exploring the unknown regions and finding new alien species. Didn’t someone say in Vision of the Future that there were aliens/threats in the unknown regions that would terrify Mara or something like that? If that’s the case just have the stories with the Solo kids and their generation be based on that. And then like you said, have the invasion story set in the distant future around 200 ABY, featuring the Solo/Skywalker descendants.

 

I think your idea of the Vong war taking place much later is interesting, and i would like to see it developed somewhere in fanon, though i do not see it as a failure of the NJO series that the invasion took place when it did, both from a logical standpoint and a writing/themes perspective.

In a logical in-universe sense, we've been having hints of an upcoming big threat throughout the New Republic Era, but more specifically Zahn's stories, with the Unknown Regions and beyond being constantly cited as the place a new big threat could emerge, Thrawn's motivations for joining the empire and trying to topple the New Republic in a hurry, the Chiss' secretism and vigil of outside threats, how Luke and Mara decided to leave the Empire of the Hand mostly intact for that same reason, etc. i think many of the stories in that era were hinting at something big possibly lurking from beyond to come into play in the near future, after short period of peace.

And from a narrative standpoint, i feel it made sense to have the Yuuzhan Vong war take place in Jacen and Jaina's coming of age, because after all Star Wars is a generational tale, like George Lucas said later in 2015 "it is about the father, the children, and the grandchildren" , Anakin and Luke's generations had a big conflict, Anakin had the Clone War and Luke the Galactic Civil War, it made sense to follow up on the generational aspect with Jacen and Jaina's generation facing the next big war that defined their stories, while the older heroes were dealing with their own story arcs as well (similarly to how Vader had his own story in the OT).

Of course this is not 100% required, as the generational aspect does have to end somewhere to make it feel like it's not an endless war, it could have ended with just the father and the son's stories, but i feel that it made sense after having followed the characters post-Jedi, seeing the newer generation bloom and slowly develop to active roles from toddlers to teenagers, to finally give them the spotlight on the same level as the OT heroes in a big scale epic with high stakes, and on top of that i think it fits the spirit of the saga.

But i certainly see the appeal of a happier timeline where such a devastating war didin't take place or took place after, since i feel the Hand of Thrawn/Union ending is more of a happier ending than the The Unifying Force ending, which, while happy and inspiring, it did take for far more tragedy to get to that point, making it more bittersweet (i personally think that makes it more powerful as an ending, but still), in the Hand of Thrawn's ending it feels like the most peaceful out of all the possible endpoints.

 

I wouldn´t really call what she had in Legends a "Redemption" at all. Basically the sole "redeming quality" there was, was that she and Obi Wan found each other sexually attractive. And in those comics Obi Wan is pretty OOC anyway, (amongst others being suddenly the "best friend/brother" to Quinlan Vos when Vos had no presence in Jedi Apprentice nor Jedi Quest...). And then Ventress just leaves, fakes her death and nothing ever happens again. At best she becomes a dark neutral, but not really redeemed.

Agree on Maul kinda usurping her place in the TCW show. As for him, my unpopular opinion: I never liked Maul, think he is a bad character and brining him back was the single worst descision before the Disney Buyout. I think even makeing Jacen a Sith wasn´t as bad (if only barely).

 

I really didin't see any sexual undertone with Obi-Wan and Ventress nor any indication that they found each other attractive in any way (the only material that shows that sort of thing is their playful flirting as enemies in early TCW, which wasn't serious), it was just Obi-Wan feeling pity for her and recognizing what she could have been had she had better circumstances, compassion is a Jedi trait, there was nothing sexual or romantic about it.

Her redemption (or should i say, "turn") was more about realizing her entire life has been a lie and that Dooku just used her focused anger towards the Jedi to fit his own goals, he never saw her as his apprentice and was only using her, but that she was too blind in the supposed power that position gave her (to fulfill her vendetta) without realizing she was just a tool, it's kind of like the Vader arc but Vader knew he was a tool for his master, he wasn't fooling himself like Ventress, in the end she realizes she was just a tool and that the power of the Dark Side she had was a lie.

That said she doesn't do much to make up for her past actions beyond warning Obi-Wan about Sidious' plans, so you are right that it's not exactly a "redemption" in spite of her turning back from the Dark Side, it is true that it leaves her into more of a neutral role than outright joining the Jedi, but i prefer it that way, since it's a different take, and it feels more natural for the character to want to go away from the war in which she had been nothing from a pawn, determined to find a new life for herself, i feel that was much better than if she had been fully redeemed "via death".

I think his friendship with Quinlan makes sense, it didin't get pushed to "brother" levels in the comics or at least i didin't get that impression, just that they were friends that saw each other a lot since Qui-Gon and Tholme were from the same generation and they were taken as Padawans at the same time, i agree that they should have coordinated better with the books' stories, but i don't feel it is necessary for every detail and relationship in the characters' lives to be preestablished or be present in all the works about them, on top of that the Quinlan/Obi-Wan friendship, while strong, wasn't focused that much in the comics nor was it treated as either Obi-Wan or Quinlan's strongest bond, and by the end it doesn't seem like their friendship got rekindled after the Dark Side Quinlan debacle, Obi-Wan seems to be uneasy around him even by the end of the Dreadnoughts arc, so it's not like it was the most important aspect of Obi-Wan's life as a padawan or anything like that.

Also i didin't find him out of character in Obsession, due to his history and understanding of Ventress as a person it made sense that he acted that way.

 

That may make sense but too me it never really felt like Comic Ventress earned that chance to start a new life. Its kinda ironic that the NEU Ventress who actually did turn to the light, has to die, while the much more evil Comic Ventress got away. I think those two fates should have been switched and its how I write Ventress in my fanfiction.

Obi Wan mourned Ventress more than any of the Jedi killed in order 66. He was defenetly obsessed with her, on more than just a pity level.

The problem is, Quinlan is already pretty much a Gary Stu and suddenly being revealed as the best friend of a main character is just adding to that.

 

That's fair, and i agree that Canon Ventress should have been allowed to live just like her Legends version did especially considering she did more to redeem herself, i like the distinction of Legends Ventress being more evil, she was far more violent and sadistic than her Canon counterpart even if she did have less agency over her life in her dependancy to Dooku (Canon Ventress even became sort of a Sith Master to Savage in spite of not being as evil by that point), in many ways she was like a rabid hound to be unleashed on the Jedi, a hound that was just beaten and mistreated to make it that way. I've also come to appreciate Canon Ventress being a Nightsister, even though i hate the retcons themselves, if the character was originally made a Dathomirian ex-Nightsister it would have worked anyway.

It's just that it's a bit ridiculous that the character that caused the creation of the Rattataki isn't a Rattataki herself anymore

I don't know about that, he mourned her like any other important death he faced in the Clone Wars really, we do see Obi-Wan deeply lamenting the death of the Jedi many times, he looked far more devastated by the loss of Anakin and the death of Qui-Gon.

He gets accused in the comic of being obsessed but he really just saw the good in her and wanted to help her, because he was the only one besides Alpha that was aware of her backstory, he was being compassionate and empathic.

 

In the Jedi vs. Sith guide Obi-Wan discusses having tried to redeem Ventress (This was before even the 2008 TCW series), and failed despite persisting up until Anakin's striking Ventress down.

Obi-Wan's reasoning was that he sensed that Ventress was not really evil like Sidious and Dooku, but instead a weak being who feared abandonment.

Post-Jedi Purge, Obi-Wan may have resonated with Ventress's story even more after reflecting on Anakin and his own story. He detached Anakin's identity from Vader in his mind, and thought of Vader as someone who was after power first and foremost (he never knew about Anakin's fears of losing Padme)- and Anakin's downfall may have given Obi-Wan even more "posthumous" sympathy for Ventress.


Side note- I need to read more comics- it's a medium I haven't been too involved with except for Son of Dathomir.

I also notice that Dooku's comic betrayal of Ventress on Boz Pity is remarkably similar to the TCW version- in which she lived to redeem herself while it's never clear in Legends canon.

 

Thing is you could make the sympathy arguments for Dooku and even Grievous as well, neither of whom Obi Wan ever showed any compassion towards. And yes the comics make it clear that Obi Wan´s sympathy for Ventress is at least in part due to sexual attraction. While she herself becomes obsessed with corrupting Obi Wan due to getting attracted to him as well.

 

For a given definition of 'Compassion', Obi-Wan did save Dooku's life at least once in TCW (In the Season 1 Pirate Episode, when they're climbing a wall together to escape Dooku's chain snaps and Kenobi goes out of his way to catch Dooku while Anakin is almost begging him to let the Count fall).

Obi-Wan might not show the same sympathy for Grievous and Dooku as he does Ventress, and to some extent Anakin, but I can't think of any instance where he wishes harm on them or seems like he really wants to hurt them. In fact, I'm pretty sure he openly state's he'd rather they just surrender on a few occasions. Being who they are, they don't. Leaving the Jedi little choice but to do what they can to defend themselves.

 

His lecturing of Grievous during their early TCW duel:


I hear a lot of talking, General, but in the final accounting, what does all the talk get you? A futile quest for power? A mutilated body? And your place as Dooku's errand boy!
I'm no errand boy, and I'm not in this war for Dooku's politics. I am the leader of the most powerful droid army the galaxy has ever seen.
An army with no loyalty, no spirit. Just programming. What have you to show for all your power, what have you to gain?
The future. A future where there are no Jedi.


could be compared to his attempts to turn Ventress away from the dark side in the comics.

 

I personally prefer the current version of the post ROTJ era over the EU/Legends one.