ST Palpatine "Gran Palpa" Discussion Thread

Funny thing is i have never had any issue with the acting. And i watched a fair amount of youtube reactions to people who watched the PT for the first time and they don't mention the acting either. So i do often wonder how we judge these types of things.

 

Agreed. I always felt that (although I really apprecated the worldbuilding) GL spent too much time "featuring" the special effects and CG. Shots lingered just a few seconds too long on certain ships or characters-and at times it felt more like an ILM commercial instead of simply a moment to provide setting for the story and characters. The OT excelled in this fashion; it used special effects for the story, not what the PT did and paused the story to show off the special effects. As for the overall plot and characters, IMO the PT is right up there with the rest! And to me that makes up for it to the point where between the story, action and worldbuilding make the PT enjoyable for me.

I also agree that the strengths of the ST are the cinematography, the acting and the effects. But the disjointed storytelling, unfinished plot points and overall lack of a cohesive trilogy-spanning story arc had the opposite effect as with the PT. As has been said before, though it was visually a well made film, TLJ really was just kind of like the a**hole kid who walks up to you at the beach and kicks down your beautiful sandcastle-so you try to rebuild it, but it's just not as good as the first one you were inspired to build. That's how TLJ's effect on the trilogy felt to me. And sadly, TROS had to spend all its screen time trying to repair all that TLJ messed up, and still make it entertaining somehow. TROS had some great action sequences, but the story was just a disjointed mess that tried to force things TLJ introduced to make sense. IMO some of it worked, and some of it didn't.

 

I watched AOTC last night (as part of the run in for Kenobi), and I’ve got to say that, again, it’s a good SW film IMO. It still has its fair share of stilted dialogue and delivery, but the overall pacing is better, and has a stronger 3rd reel (actually a really cinematically clever 3rd reel IMO). Yes, I’d agree that the really stylised dialogue/delivery becomes the norm for the PT in AOTC, but I can understand why AOTC was regarded as a step up from TPM. And a couple of those Anakin/Padme romantic scenes aside, it’s a really fun couple of hours. Again, similar to TPM, if I were Lucas I would have condensed the first 45 mins, and had the chase through Coruscant directly following Padme’s arrival and the ship blowing up. It would have tightened the film up considerably… but that’s just me.

 

I went through the PT (and some Clone Wars and Bad Batch pilot) to gear up for Kenobi and, having viewed it post TROS (I love the opera scene even more after TROS and I always loved the opera scene), I think it's interesting to think on how Palpatine's voice goes all dark and wacky and sounding like multiple people when he bestows Anakin with the name Darth Vader



I honestly didn't know why that happened watching in 2005 (aside from general evil wizard creepiness). But hey if it's All the Sith speaking through Palpatine at that moment, I can absolutely roll with that. Maybe All the Sith and All the Jedi take a peek at big moments of galaxy destiny.

 

Why would power craved selfish Sith lords be okay with hanging out inside another Sith for eternity, with no control over things? That almost sounds altruistic. Very unsith like.

In general 'all the X' is lame. Qui-gon was the first to retain identity post death. The Sith cannot achieve this power, nor are they interested in it. They wish to retain their living lives forever, to control the corporeal, the galaxy, and not as post-death spiritual existence. So saying all the sith and all the jedi from the last 100 generations/30,000 years are still able to enter living beings to help out on galactic matters just dumbs down and breaks the lore wide open.

How about Palpatine is just using the force. It's making him stronger. Powerful. No dead Sith needed.

 

The best exploration I’ve seen of this idea was Children of Dune, where we see how characters who have access to the memories of their ancestors wrestle with the other personalities within them. In this setting, these are explicitly “just” the memories of those people, with the actual people being separate and in some cases still living their own lives apart. But there’s an implicit connection to spirits and souls as well, and one thing that’s clear in the story is that these other minds inside of the living characters desperately exist in a kind of limbo. To them, having control of the living body is a temptation that even the good personalities have trouble resisting, and it’s something the outright villainous ones plot to obtain.

There’s more detail and complexity to this Other Memory in the Dune series, but I think it’s a close parallel to what’s hinted at in TROS. The idea in Star Wars is not, from what I can tell, that this is a genuine form of survival after death so much as a living Force user having access to the spirits of the dead, who exist in the Force. It does mess with the notion of specific training being needed to retain individuality in the Force. But a skillful storyteller could skirt around that issue by clarifying that there’s some kind of difference, perhaps that those spirits aren’t truly conscious and are more like shades in Greek myth, lost in the a barely conscious haze of afterlife until the living reawaken them.

That said, I get the feeling that future stories will move away from taking that line so literally. The official databank and a few reference books consistently refer to Palpatine having access to the power of bygone Sith, not to their spirits. But the original intent clearly involves some kind of survival of personality, as that is the fate Palpatine had planned for himself after his cloning experiments failed. So my theory is that he planned to be initially just a background spirit in Rey (as the others were in him), but he hoped to be stronger and thus be able to overpower her and live through her. Really, it sounds like his plan had very strong parallels to what happens in Children of Dune, even down to the family dynamics.

I don’t disagree this is a messy affair. Sometimes I think some of the stories that mess around with the Force on this level end up not having a very solid foundation and thus muddling some of the spiritual ideas of the series. But I can’t deny there’s some interesting potential there.

 

Because for a Sith it’s better than the alternative of being truly dead and gone. It’s still a selfish act.

 

Why is being trapped in another Sith's body with no power, giving their own power to help the host Sith, a better alternative for a selfish power-craved individual. Sounds like hell. Sounds like submission. Why would a Sith Master knowingly choose to submit their power for the greater 'good' of the Sith?

Doesn't sound Sith like at all. The more you think about it the less sense it makes. And it just sounds like desperation to make TROS's unthoughtful and uncreative decisions make more sense, at the expense of the rest of the saga.

 

I buy that Palpatine had another evil plan to consume Rey's consciousness if she went through with the ritual, he's cheating death after all not conquering it like the Jedi do. Tricky plans and all that.

Anyway yeah in RotS he definitely sounds like he's speaking with multiple voices so it retroactively works.

 

You get it. But aren’t putting the prices together the same way.

Because the alternative is being nothing. That’s even less power.

It would be. But the Sith are so selfish they’d rather suffer in hell for all time but still exist than be gone.

What other choice do they have other than not exist?

It’s not for the greater good. It’s for their individual good. It just happens that what’s good for them in this instance is better for the other Sith as well.

And the Sith always want their current host killed by a stonger host. So that’s not for the greater good of the host.

Sounds like the most Sith thing ever and helps the entire Saga make more sense the more you think about it.

It reframes the events of episodes 1 to 9 into the story of how the Jedi learned to become Force Spirits and finally destroyed the Sith who clung on to life.

 

Stepping aside from the main discussion point, I do think that, although the Sith are selfish, there are ways in which they show loyalty to the Sith Order that goes above and beyond their own survival. After all, the Sith exist because a master wants an apprentice to carry on the dark side teachings to the future. The apprentice dutifully trains to become the new Sith master, and although there may often be betrayal involved, as it is explicitly in the ascension of Darth Sidious, that’s not necessarily the only way a Sith becomes master. There must’ve been times when the master simply died of old age.

Not all Sith masters necessarily tried to live forever. And, before the sequels came out, even Sidious displayed this acceptance of mortality and the need to ensure his Sith legacy through non-supernatural means, i.e., via his legacy. In Revenge of the Sith, he taunts Yoda by telling him that Darth Vader would become more powerful than either of them. In Return of the Jedi, he wants Luke to become his new apprentice, for the Sith to be continued by someone stronger than Vader. He is choosing a successor here, not a host.

These scenes have acquired new meaning with the sequels (and before them, with works like Dark Empire), but I think the actual intent of them is to suggest that Sith Lords primarily live on after death through legacy rather than immortality. And that goes back to how connected the Sith are to the historical institution of monarchy. We’ve seen some very extra Sith powers in the EU and in the new canon over the years, but while the Sith in the movies probably do wish they could live forever, they seem to be more grounded in reality than the Sith in those other works.

 

I think the Sith master and apprentice relationship is built on a scam when it comes to motivation. The master never willingly cedes their status to the apprentice. The master has no loyalty to the apprentice beyond their usefulness in the moment The master is always looking for a new apprentice that will better serve their ends.

And the apprentice is always looking for the moment of weakness when they can replace the master. That’s why I doubt a Sith Master ever died of old age. Let’s say they maintained maximum power until one minute before they died naturally. The apprentice would still kill them in that minute - just in the off chance they recovered.

That’s the weirdest line in the prequels to me. It never made sense or rang true. Palpatine is bragging about Anakin replacing him or Yoda. Sith don’t give up power. And how does Anakin have the knowledge to be a Sith Lord and carry on the Sith legacy at that moment if Yoda killed Palpatine? Why is Vader killing Yoda a victory for Palpatine if he’s already dead?


And with Return of the Jedi I always read that as Palpatine actually wanting Luke to kill him. Which made little sense until the host concept is introduced in the sequels.

My read on it now is that of a host in both instances. If a Force user is powerful enough to kill the Sith Lord, they become the new host - regardless if they are the Sith Apprentice or not. So if Yoda killed Darth Sidious in that duel, Yoda would have unwillingly become the new host and the new Sith Master.

I think Yoda recognizes this during the duel which is why he stops fighting. And Palpatine’s taunt at the start of the fight is basically saying Vader’s potential is so powerful if Yoda wins he won’t be Sith Master for long.

So why didn’t Darth Vader / Anakin become the Sith host when he tossed Palpatine down the Death Star Tower? Maybe distance. Or was it a choice? Palpatine’s choice. Palpatine knows Anakin is mortally wounded and not strong enough to be the host. So Palpatine opts for the backup plan on Exegol.

Legacy is like a summary of someone. The actual details and living knowledge would be more useful.

I don’t understand how the Rule of Two doesn’t cause the Sith to lose knowledge over time and resulting in their powers plateauing with Sith Lords wasting time rediscovering lost skills.


Having only two seems so precarious. One mishap early for the master and it’s over. Not a secure way to pass on knowledge. How does the apprentice have time to learn everything? How is info not lost? We see how the Jedi Order forgets things after 1,000 years when it’s outside of living memory.

But the host theory means the Sith retain all past living knowledge. The Sith Master gains this when they become the host. And they become the host by proving themselves more powerful than the Master they replace. Cunning and raw power the most important abilities. The encyclopedia of knowledge is the given reward.

 

There’s a giant 1,000 year gap immediately preceding Palpatine of which we know almost zilch. The Sith are all about power, and this is a millennium of powerlessness. We can’t really make too many assumptions about how the Sith existed during this time until stories start to get told. I think a lot of assumptions get made that they are out there the entire time just slowly growing in power.

Based on Leslye Headland’s interview, the groundwork for the Sith rising to power in the PT doesn’t sound like it really start rolling until 900 years after being beaten by the Jedi, and when Palpatine does come to power its for a pitiful amount of time. If you have 900 years to savor defeat before coming up with an effective plan, Id imagine there’s room for all kinds of schisms in ideology until something sticks. Why stick to some dogma like the Rule of Two when you have a 9 century long period of shame

George had his story which which has been expanded upon. But the Armorer In TBOBF says something along the lines of the Mandalorians existing for 10,000 years, while Palpatine ruled for a couple decades.

And when you include the sequel trilogy, Palpatine spent just as much time attached to a machine on Exegol as he did actually ruling the universe.

I think a lot of what we “know” comes more from Lucas talking behind the scenes.

When I saw the OT, I never thought Palpatine to be immortal. I thought he was ancient, but he definitely looked like the Dark Side was causing his body to fail.

When I saw the prequels, we have Palpatine seeking out an apprentice far younger and more powerful than Dooku, and he seems pleased by the idea that Anakin will grow stronger than himself.

The only line about cheating death comes in episode 3 of 6 as a means to tempt Anakin and then never comes up again until Episode 9, with the exception of Lucas mentioning it multiple times in his over explaining things he didn’t convey effectively on screen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

So better to be a servant in some Sith host body, being used as a source of sith dark side energy ... than ... not exist anymore?

I'm not a Sith, and even I'd chose eradication over that. Sounds like prison.

Have people really thought this through? And no, it doesn't make the saga make more sense, It makes it stupid. We don't need Sith Highlanders.

 

Before the Disney acquisition I had difficulty reconciling the idea that the Sith are obsessed with eternal life as per Lucas with the idea that treachery and betrayal was baked into Sith ideology as was presented in the EU.

In college I took a course on parasites and learned about different kinds of parasites that must travel through various hosts to complete its lifecycle. And sometimes a parasite will alter the behavior of its host to increase the odds it will pass to the next host.

E.g. an ant eats a parasite egg, the egg hatches in the stomach of the ant as a larvae, the parasite releases chemicals that cause the ant to be drawn to light, so the ant climbs blades of grass during the day, maximizing the chance that it is consumed by a grazing cow. Once in the cow, the larvae can become an adult.

My head cannon at the time was that as people succumb to the Dark Side, they believe they can control it and use it for power, but in reality the Dark Side is using them to find the ideal host, eventually degrading the minds of the Sith until they turn on each other with the Dark Side latching onto the strongest until a better host comes along.

RoS at least attempted a canon explanation by reasoning that all the Sith can body hop into the stronger individual. I always thought it was weird that Palpatine came across as suicidal and I’m glad that they at least didn’t ignore the seeming contradiction that this guy obsessed with immortality is willing to allow Luke to take a swing at him, or to train someone that will surpass and one day kill him, but Ill stick with my head cannon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I agree it sounds like prison for you or me. It’s having the choice of a forever sentance or execution.

Also I’m assuming each Sith Lord was the master at one point and lived the schizophrenic life of having all these other Sith inside of them. That might make the switch to background soul more tolerable. They also might not have a choice if they get dragged along by the larger mob.

I like the idea that the apprentice really doesn’t understand what they are getting into. It’s like Faust or a deal with the Devil. They want to be Master and call the shots, but they don’t necessarily know becoming the master means their body and mind get invaded/ possessed by the souls of past Sith Lords.

Great analogy with the ants climbing grass.

I also thought Palpatine seemed weirdly suicidal - both in Return of the Jedi and Revenge of the Sith. He would love Luke or Anakin to cut him down. It think that’s the emotions of parasites shining through.

What could be interesting is if Palpatine became the apex Sith Lord and actually learned to replace the personality of the new host body. So he could upgrade his physical form without losing control.

I don’t know if the Revenge of the Sith points to that. But The Rise Of Skywalker might. Like if Palpatine is legitimately offering to let Rey kill him - it makes more sense that his consciousness would take over her body pushing Rey to the background.

 

The idea of the Dark Side as a parasite looking for the strongest host is creative.

 

Personally, I rather like the idea that we get three iterations of Sheev throughout the saga. In the prequels, he's a Machiavellian schemer; in the classics, he's a selfishly vindictive despot; in the sequels, he's an eldritch monstrosity.
Naturally, the sequels didn't quite stick the landing by having the reborn Sheev's motivation be the RULE THA GALAXYYYY boilerplate. I'd have much preferred the notion that he's moved beyond that and seeks to punish it for all eternity, with much of the First Order realizing at the end what they've helped unleash and also working to stop him from escaping Exegol.

 

And I'm saying I think the Sith Master would 'prefer' annihilation over a spiritual prison existence inside another Sith (their former apprentice who killed them), where they have no autonomy, no control, and are essentially a dark side battery. I'm saying that's not Sith like.

And I don't think Palpatine was at all suicidal in either ROTS or ROTJ. He's tempting the would-be apprentice to fall to the dark side. To use their anger and become evil. He's not about to just let Anakin or Luke kill him. He knows that's what they want...and he's toying with them. Use the anger. Fight him. And then Palps unleashes brutality and promises to make them stronger, make them more powerful, if they join him. And that's the carrot that Anakin (and all the apprentices) is always chasing.

I really don't know where this desire to retcon the entire trilogy into a pretzel, just for the sake of making an uncreative, and lore-recking EP 9 'work better'. It's not needed at all.

 

The Emperor wasn’t really suicidal in Return of the Jedi. For one, he knew Vader would stop Luke. But even if Vader hadn’t, the Emperor would simply have stopped Luke with the Force. That’s actually a scenario that came up in story conferences for that movie, the director and Lucas were talking about the Emperor’s mindset here, and scaling back on how much of his overt power they wanted to show at that stage. The end result is that the Emperor’s true power is mostly hidden until the end. There’s the illusion that Luke could’ve killed him, but that’s all it was. The Emperor was always in full control of that situation, as far as overt power went. He was defeated through powerlessness.

So there’s no need for an alternate explanation. The element of cheating death is something Lucas introduced only as a lure for Anakin. Its purpose in the story is to show the temptations of the dark side, and ultimately its lies. Of course, other storytellers have taken things in other directions. But if we look at the source of things, the Emperor really does initially believe Vader can succeed him and carry on the Sith legacy. And once Vader is weakened and his son comes into the picture, his focus switches to Luke.

Of course, the Emperor wants to live for as long as he can, and while he lives these powerful servants make his life easier and safer. But, like the heir of a king, they also ensure the Sith will live on after him. The same would’ve been the case for the Sith before him. The Order survived a millennium in hiding. We don’t know those stories, but we also don’t need to, because we know they succeeded. They survived until they were strong enough and in a good position to take their revenge and come back into power. Although Sith Lords do betray one another, having only a master and an apprentice eliminates some of the chaos inherent in their greed. The apprentice knows they will become master if they are strong enough. The master knows the apprentice will be worthy to carry on the Sith if they pass whatever the Sith have for trials. For all the betrayal that there must have been, there would’ve also had to have been discipline if the Sith survived that long.

The notion of supernatural survival is kinda extra. It’s interesting, if explored right. Very easy to do wrong or in a way that’s been done many times before. But it’s not necessary to explain Sith actions. And in fact it does take a bit away from whatever little complexity the Sith have.

 

My view of this scene changes as more story gets added.

When I saw that scene as a kid in the 90s I would have interpreted it way differently than I did post PT and now differently again post ST.

In the 90s? My interpretation was of course Palpatine doesn’t want to die and of course Vader was going to protect him. They’re buddies, right? Palpatine just wants to get Luke angry to fall to the Dark Side. Vader may have tried to recruit Luke to overthrow Palpatine in ESB, but that’s not real either, he just wants to lure Luke with false promises so that he and Palpatine can turn him. When Palpatine tells Luke to take his father’s place, I saw that more as Luke taking place as Palpatine’s favorite, not that Vader would be killed. There was no Rule of Two as far as I cared.

After the prequels? Well I guess there can only be two Sith and it’s mind of weird that they are working together to train a third guy. One Luke gets angry enough to take a swing against Palpatine, it’s odd that Vader defends him, especially after an apparently sincere attempt to recruit Luke to kill Palpatine in the previous movie. All that ambition is just gone now, and even after Palpatine tells Luke to take Vader’s place, Vader returns to his master’s side.

After playing games like KOTOR? Ok well now the idea of an apprentice overthrowing their master is not only possible, but actually expected/encouraged? Uh, What? Why find somebody with the potential to surpass you and train them? Vader serves no purpose. to the Empire. He does nothing that an army of clones could not also do. Had Palpatine let Vader to die on Mustafar and started a Rule of One, he would have ruled longer. If Palpatine values his life, there is no reason to train Vader. Plagueis taught Palpatine everything he knew? What an idiot! You don’t do that when your philosophy is that your apprentice wants your position and will kill you to get it!

After the ST? Well I guess Palpatine is OK with a powerful person killing him so long as it’s in anger, because then he can body hop???? So I guess if Vader killed Palpatine, Palpatine would have been ok with that?

I mean what the ST established with the spirit transfer idea can at least explain away why the Sith train their own killers, seemingly fully aware that one day they’ll be overthrown. But it doesn’t explain why body hoping is preferable. Why is joining “all the Sith” more preferable to just being Palpatine or Rey?

Never mind the fact that if Rey wants to kill you, and you want her to kill you, you perhaps don’t tell her that it will be at the expense of her individuality or tell her it’s part of your plan…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

But giving up all power and being dead is even worse. Also the Sith Lord may not have any choice in the matter.

Without it I do not see how the Sith do not lose knowledge over time and see their abilities plateau. And it means the Force Ghost are a nessasary evolution for the Jedi to defeat the Sith.

In a way he is suicidal. Palpatine will stop those trying to kill him but you see this animalistic lust for being struck down happen in all three trilogies. When Palpatine senses the anger and hatred in Anakin after revealing himself to be the Sith Lord, there is a part of Palpatine on display that wants to be struck down. Same again with Luke and Rey.

I’m saying that is the emotions of all the Sith showing at the surface. They want the apprentice to try for the thrown. They are always lusting after a more powerful host.

I don’t think Palpatine would ever be happy with it. He wants to be the most powerful forever. But the parasitic horde of undead Sith Souls in his body are more than OK with it. And as soon as Palpatine is no long the spirit in control he’s also be lusting along with the other souls for stronger hosts.

I like the idea that Palpatine is the Apex Sith and he actually displaces consciousness of the host body and remains in control. That’s why he was cool with letting Rey kill him.

 

I find the idea that all the Sith can inhabit the same body to be somewhat preposterous. There is, of course, logic in the idea that the rule of two results in the ‘master’ being the fountainhead of all Sith knowledge… with each master (in theory) being more powerful than the one they usurp. But as with much of the ST, primarily because of the creative vacuum, they (the writers) tend to take an element of what was in the previous films, and interpret some of those ideas literally as opposed to figuratively. That Palpatine would be ‘all Sith’ is true in the figurative sense. In the literal sense it’s a stupid idea IMO.

 

Well, I guess we’re taking Palpatine as his word and there’s really no proof that what he’s saying is true. I guess you could head cannon that he was just insane and delusional, and that his plan wouldn’t have worked. Perhaps it would have succeeded in turning Rey into a Sith Empress, but the part about all the Sith living in Palpatine or Palpatine possessing Rey could have just been wishful thinking and misplaced faith.

There are certain things in Star Wars that get established but then never come up again (or do so only in a limited capacity). Helicopter lightsabers, The World Between Worlds, Mortis, Midichlorians, Hyperspace Whales, Bendu). I could see the concept of Sith possession existing in RoS exclusively never to really be mentioned again except maybe in RoS visual guides or novelizations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I think thats just the toxic way the sith work really. Vader was likely never ignorant of the Emporer's intentions, which is why even Vader himself schemes behind the emporers back.

Same with Dooku really. In episode 2 he is pratically spilling the beans about palpatine to ObI wan and then next he is back telling palpatine all is going well.