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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Mini Series Obi-Wan Kenobi - Part 4 - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by Todd the Jedi , Jun 7, 2022.

?

Grade the Episode

Poll closed Jun 15, 2022.
  1. 10

    8.1%
  2. 9

    15.2%
  3. 8

    22.8%
  4. 7

    23.4%
  5. 6

    11.2%
  6. 5

    7.1%
  7. 4

    5.6%
  8. 3

    2.0%
  9. 2

    2.0%
  10. 1

    2.5%
  1. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Fair enough! Though Leia was indeed saved by Obi-Wan and Tala from Flea, and then abducted a second time by Reva herself.

    Also, I forget: how did the rebels find out Leia was being held at the FI?
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2022
  2. darth orange shirt guy

    darth orange shirt guy Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2022
    Many Bothan spy’s died for that information.
    I don’t know if I am really a fan of the whole organisation anyway.
     
  3. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2019
    I don't get why this is still an argument after the success of The Mandalorian. I really don't think it should be that hard to find a decent balance between adventure and character development, yet literally every other show (IMO) is completely incapable of consistently doing it.

    It has to be done sparingly. I liked the idea of Obi-Wan rescuing Leia from a kidnapping as a child, but with the most recent episode, the reference to ANH is so on-the-nose that it feels forced. We now have a canon where Leia has been directly kidnapped and interrogated by a dark sider and taken to a secret facility that gets infiltrated by Obi-Wan sneaking around twice. Just like we have a Jedi Order that got wiped out by a fallen Skywalker twice, and Palpatine being killed due to the redemption of a fallen Skywalker twice.

    My issue with her is that thus far, there is nothing about her that makes her stand out beyond being an extremely generic villain. The Inquisitors are a bunch of useless jobbers in pretty much everything, and the only thing that makes Reva different is that she just magically knows everything.

    Trilla is the only Inquisitor I think was well-written, and I'm annoyed that it's taking so long to get ANY depth out of Reva. I'll be extremely disappointed if her sole ambition is to be Vader's special little girl, or if she's just another angry Jedi with abandonment issues. I think Moses deserves better than that, especially if they're gonna kill her off at the end, which is more likely than not.
     
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  4. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    I have to disagree. They didn't train him for that reason, nor did they plan on letting him take down his own father without knowing he was his father. Luke left before he was ready, Yoda even refers to that in ROTJ. He was supposed to be fully trained before he learned about his father.

    Also notice how in ROTJ Yoda tells Luke that he needs to confront Vader. It is Luke who reads that as having to kill Vader. When Luke tells Obi-Wan that he cannot kill his own father, Obi-Wan does say that in that case they have already lost, but not because Vader's death was the ultimate goal. Instead it seems to be about Luke not being prepared to accept what he might need to do. This is mirrored in ROTS, when Obi-Wan says he cannot kill Anakin. The issue isn't that Luke must kill Vader, but him rejecting the possibility of that outcome. He's supposed to rid himself of limiting factors. He actually kind of adheres to that later on, when he tells the Emperor that he will die soon.
     
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  5. SmokeMonster4815162342

    SmokeMonster4815162342 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2015
    I think it's funny how ppl harp on Ingram's performance, when I think she's bringing way more to the table than the script. She just has so much screentime relative to her development. The only time that works is with Bond style villains (think Vader in ANH, the Grand Inquisitor, or Bane), who get by on their striking visuals or deliciously over-the-top voice, but that's not what Reva is. It seems Ingram was brought in just to be a good actress, to give some human nuance to her, which she does, but without the depth (the backstory), it's not really accomplishing anything at this point. And most importantly, Reva's character is just putting into motion plots that don't dig deep into Obi-wan's character, which is begging to be explored given where Obi-wan is at this time.

    It's like the same problem with Malekith in Thor The Dark World. Not enough depth to be interesting, not enough passaz to be entertaining. No interesting conflict for our hero. And all the while, we're really here for Thor and Loki, and the fallout of the previous movie, because obviously that's what's most important to Thor.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2022
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  6. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I'd personally argue that Ingram has delivered a more consistent performance than McGregor - who's been great, but on a couple occasions a little OTT. Moses Ingram and Vivian Lyra Blair (and Indira Varma) have been incredibly good. I just think that, as with some fan reactions to Felicity Jones and Diego Luna (two of the best-acted leads in Star Wars, IMO), her performance is subtle. And they don't expect that in their Star Wars. Many fans expect much bigger, melodramatic emotions from their Star Wars characters. And Ingram (thankfully) isn't giving them that.

    Fans were wrong about the acting in Rogue One, and I think they're wrong about Ingram.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2022
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  7. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I think Moses' performance is very dramatic, but realistically so. She makes Reva real. I believe that she's a living, breathing person who has real reasons for doing what she does. Even though I don't know (yet) what those reasons are exactly, I can tell that there's more to her than meets the eye. And that makes her truly interesting.
     
  8. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Moses Ingram is neither incredibly good nor incredibly bad. She does her job well enough. I know we all love to always be over-the-top in either direction, but that's pretty much it, in this case.
    As far as RO goes, Diego Luna was forced to make an accent that has always annoyed me, and Felicity Jones was clearly asked to cry for 2 minutes in front of a blank wall, which she did. I think that scene was pretty awful, but kudos to her, because she did, indeed, cry for 2 minutes in front of a blank wall.
     
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  9. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I disagree with all of that, but hey, so what?

    In my opinion, Moses is absolutely brilliant.
     
  10. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2015
    Don't know if this has been posted yet, but the writer for the show confirms that the Jedi are like "pinned butterflies on the wall":

    All Obi-Wan Kenobi timeline questions will be 'answered fully' | EW.com

    He says that they didn't want to make it too shocking, but I think it went too far. Vader is in charge of the Inquisitors, and I don't think he would keep the Jedi's bodies like that. That's just something I disagree with on about the character with the writers of this series.
     
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  11. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Moses has multiple layers of unconscious bias to overcome for some people with regard to their desire for GFFA immersion. Some have been discussed before here.

    Like the intersectionality she has to overcome from being not only the first black human inquisitor in live action but also the first black female one.

    Unconscious bias occurs when the mind isn’t immediately at home with someone outside their race, gender, religion, etc, in the same way they might be someone of their same race, gender, religion, etc. Because it’s unconscious many people miss it and don’t even realize they’re doing it. It can be as simple as going through a resume if you’re a hiring manager and feeling more drawn to one applicant’s name than another regardless of qualifications. If you’re a white male boss a resume named Matthew Devlin might interest you more than a resume with the exact same qualifications from the exact same school from someone named Fatimah Mohammed. And this kind of thing can happen in an instant for some. It’s unconscious and they don’t think anything of it.

    Within Star Wars people want to be transported away. They want to feel like it’s another place and many still aren’t accustomed to seeing a black woman in anything more than a background role in the GFFA.
    Particularly the same timeline as Kenobi’s here. So she has to overcome that immediately off the top for some. And again I’m not even talking about outright racism here from people who openly hate. I’m just talking about the unconscious bias that some have without realizing who see her and a part of their brain just doesn’t feel as immersed into the world because they’ve never seen anyone like her talk to other Star Wars characters before.

    We have discussed a lot of that in the diversity thread so I won’t talk about that too much here but I will talk about the next levels of immersion obstacles she has to overcome.

    1. She speaks with a North American accent.

    2. She has no discernible scars and her complexion is nearly flawless.

    Regarding the first point, thankfully we are past a point in time where everyone feels like all people associated with the Empire in this timeline should have British accents but having said that we still haven’t had that many people in the Empire with regular North American accents who are more then small characters. Ben Mendelssohn didn’t use his Australian accent in Rogue One and is one of the more notable exceptions. Even the GI has an English accent. So, that’s one other layer she has to overcome for some.

    The second point is something that might be divisive to say because in a world without unconscious biases or racism in the fandom it wouldn’t be necessary but because both exist, in order to help make her character feel a little less like an ordinary woman many viewers might see while in America, they might have considered giving her some additional level of visual design to make it easier for some to suspend disbelief around her as an Inquisitor to give her a better shot. I think they did a fantastic job with her hair. That’s s hair style I’ve literally never seen on any other woman in earth beyond her but instead of showcasing her nearly flawless skin complexion… even a big scar or cybernetic enhancement on her face somewhere probably would have given her a slightly more menacing and GFFA feel for the role of an Inquisitor. She stands out among that pack so much because the rest are alien and she isn’t and also because her skin is almost flawless and theirs is not.

    So, when you really stop and think about all of the surface level BS she has to overcome for many of us watching her in order for us to feel like she’s doing s good job helping us suspend disbelief it’s actually pretty clear what she’s up against. She has been downright excellent at times but because of so many other things she has to overcome constantly while on screen for people to suspend their belief and buy her as a member of the Inquisitors the odd “meh” moment of acting mediocrity that is neither poor nor excellent gets assessed so much harsher and so much faster. And then the people who hate her most focus on those aspects and meme them or cut up videos to ridicule her and make it seem like that’s her normal. She’s up against a lot.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2022
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  12. darth orange shirt guy

    darth orange shirt guy Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2022
    My thoughts are with her. Like her character or not, Its horrible whats happening and the hate she is getting. Some SW fans are horrible, and misrepresent this amazing community.
     
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  13. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    These points are all great... it's just the thread we're in that isn't.

    It's an important discussion and worth having but try to keep a discussion about episode 4 of OWK about the 4th episode of OWK.
     
  14. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Right.
    Tala's account should have been blacklisted in the Empire registries.
     
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  15. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    You can bet your buttocks it is after Part IV.
     
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  16. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    I might be wrong, but isn't she still actually working as an Imperial officer? Then she wasn't discovered until Part IV, so she shouldn't be blacklisted until after the incident at Fortress Inquisitorius.

    Or maybe that's what what you meant? :p
     
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  17. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Butterflies on the wall is pretty apt. I suppose it could lead to experiments into the future but the Sith imagine a world where the Jedi are extinct and the Sith Eternal are, well, eternal so I do like the darkness of that concept. Palpatine was clearly interested in history and relics and had storage facilities all over where ancient historical artifacts were kept. I can imagine him seeing the value of a historical display of the now extinct Jedi for a time when the Sith are more out in the open while also having the option for experimenting on the bodies if necessary. It could be dual purpose which is why I can imagine him approving it.


    I also think it adds an interesting level to him disappearing in the fight versus Vader in ANH and becoming one with the force. Vader and Palpatine won’t be taking him for any display. Not saying that is part of Kenobi’s mindset there but I can now imagine Palpatine asking if he has the body once Vader tells him Kenobi is dead.

    That Joby Harold guy has been handling a lot of the discussions and I can see why. He answers questions exactly how I would want if I was a Lucasfilm executive. Thoughtful about the writing process but also not going to spoil anything.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2022
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  18. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    I was convinced that by helping OW in Part III she had already burned her undercover position.
     
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  19. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I don't see why the Jedi tomb would be going too far, or why it would be out of character for Vader to allow (or order) it. To me, it lines up perfectly with how he's been portrayed over the years.
     
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  20. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    I don't think anyone knew. She's in civilian clothes -- in the dark -- when she helps him at the end. And when she first rescues Ben and Leia she's not leaving any witnesses.
     
  21. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    The best lies are half truths. She could tell Reva knew she was not all she appeared to be and so she leaned into that and that’s why Reva said she wasn’t sure if she was lying to her to tell her what she wanted to hear and to make it seem like she was more on top of the situation than she was or lying at her and that she herself was an actual spy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2022
  22. Darth Weavile

    Darth Weavile Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Yes, anyone who dares criticize the show is “trolling.” Give me a break.
     
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  23. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    I would have loved to follow the adventures of Tala the spy for a bit longer. This undercover stories are my cup of tea.
    I enjoyed her exchange with the guard.
     
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  24. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I actually went to see Body Worlds when it came through my city. If you don’t know what it is check it out.
    https://bodyworlds.com/

    Dead bodies on display without their skin on for others to walk around and see is a thing that exists right now on Earth so I can absolutely imagine a variation in a world controlled by the Sith that is less about teaching people about bodies and more about showing the Sith’s mortal enemies, The Jedi, on display before they went “extinct.”

    We also have dead hominid human relatives on display in museums right now and also some Egyptians on display as mummified.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2022
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  25. Grizzlor

    Grizzlor Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2015
    Enjoyable episode but far too short.