ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

Arguably this could be seen as Rey really connecting with the force and rejecting Kylo, not rejecting turning to the dark side.

I disagree. I don't really remember Obi using his anger to fight Anakin in ROTS.

I don't think there's necessarily a moment where Rey has a complete opportunity to recenter herself. Especially because that moment you use has nothing to tempt Rey with. It's like saying it's tempting if someone offers you a job you don't want and know very little about, with coworkers you don't like, all of which you'd get almost no benefits from. Rey doesn't like Kylo here, she has little developed interest in using the force for anything other than fighting Kylo in this moment, and she barely knows about the force herself as far as the movie had directly developed, so Kylo's offer means really not much of anything to her.

I don't think the TROS really introduces evil blood, moreso introduces the idea of fearing your bloodline defining and that your bloodline could define you as good or evil, which I think it pretty much goes, "no, blood doesn't define your moral direction".

Rey has no reason to be tempted by Kylo as a person. Kylo offers nothing to her, to join him with. Joining the dark side isn't joining a dark sider. It's giving in to their own anger and fear. Joining Kylo doesn't do either for Rey. What does do that for Rey is for her to fight and harm Kylo.

 

I don't believe Abrams is establishing Rey as having any dark side tendencies at all in TFA. I think Rey, in the duel with Kylo, is just a straightforward personification of what Abrams believes a non-Jedi in a lightsaber duel would be acting like. I mean, yes one can project onto that and state that this is Rey getting empowered through anger/hate etc. but if that were the case (as in a conscious writing choice), I'd say that makes her an even more MS character, given that we saw both Obi-Wan (TPM) and Anakin (AOTC) having to 'learn their lesson' i.e. that rushing in with anger does not pay... whereas Rey just teaches herself in the moment.

 

No teaching actually happens in that moment, that we see, if she was using anger.

 

That's the point... Rey doesn't need to be taught anything. She's the most vacuous character in Star Wars.

 

No, I'm saying that she doesn't teach herself either. You said she taught herself.

 

Which is the point. She needs no lessons from others, no guidance... other than her innate knowledge... she doesn't even have the requirement to learn from mistakes. She has it all inbuilt... She's the very definition of a character elevated beyond her worth.

 

No development of innate knowledge in regards to her anger is developed in that moment.

 

Except it's in no way equal. Luke almost gets drowned by the dianoga, gets shot at, hits the training droid shot on the last go round (after being hit in the butt and laughed at by Han), and makes a shot that he says he could make in the briefing, although he does use the Force. All in ANH. In Empire, he is trained, has a horrible vision of the most important people in his life being tortured, is beaten to pieces and finds out Vader is his father. In ROTJ, he's nearly electrocuted and has his hand shot up.

In her first movie, Rey hops into the Falcon, flies it with amazing skill, fixes it better than Han, fends off Kylo's torture, does the mind trick without even knowing that it exists, escapes on her own, and then beat the crap out of Kylo with a weapon she's never used and, no matter for all the "you're just a hater" comments, is NOT like her staff. In TLJ, she feels bad a few times and gets some scratches. Oh, she's tortured for, what, 30 seconds? In TROS, she has a bad dream, gets a little fried by Palpatine for a nanosecond, and feels bad about Chewie.

Rey is beyond even a modern power fantasy. Nothing bad happens to her the whole trilogy. She doesn't lose a limb, she has about a minute of torture and a few scratches. She doesn't train on anything but she's better than everyone. When she's smiling at Han in the Falcon cockpit after having fixed the ship, I can't stand her and by the time she wants to save Kylo, I actively hate her.

 

I think the word here is struggle. Rey never struggles. She never falters. Never trips up. Never succumbs to anything. Even when she should, or kind of does, the story doesn't treat it as such.

Sure, she has moments of anger. Of hatred even. She is definitely tortured by Kylo. But in each case, almost immediately, within the same scene no less, Rey overcomes. But long term, there's nothing to overcome for some element for which she lags in. Which means she doesn't ever really grow. Or overcome anything. She's largely the same exact person at the end of TROS, as she is when we first meet her in TFA. Strong. Confident. Alone. Powerful. Good.

In fact her entire arc boils down to taking a last name. Which seems pretty damn regressive to me. But what do I know.

 

I would agree with you guys, except there is one moment - she is almost killed dueling Kylo in TROS.
She was beaten and only survived because of Leia reaching out to Ben.
Watch the scene - Rey is sore and tired and has been overpowered by Ren before he stops.

 

To be fair to the first:

In TPM Qui-Gon says this about Anakin in regards to his abilities, "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait." Arguably, this could be the case for Rey's ability to pilot the falcon. But I wouldn't put money on JJ knowing about that line or planning it that way.

Now to the second:

I don't interpret that line as fixing. I see that as Rey just taking something off. To me.

 

Yes, I do want to note that yes, she is tortured by Kylo - I do not subscribe to the whole "oh, she hurt Kylo worse" R-lo interpretation. So I'll amend to that.

But also yes to the above. She walks out of TROS just as she walked into TFA, down to how she appears onscreen.

I'll put that down - I'd forgotten so much (mercifully) of TROS, especially that nonsense on the Death Star (ESPECIALLY that scene with Han. Oh, and the fact the whole thing is pretty much so intact that Kylo can fly one of the TIEs from it).

Me either!

True. I do blame it on the writing and direction. Plus from the time they see the Falcon on, TFA just derails. The train cars were piling up from the moment of "Luke Skywalker has disappeared" turning into a years long disappearance (and why would anyone but Han and Leia be looking for Luke - and Han isn't. So much wrong....anyway) but the Falcon turning up as "garbage" is so meta that it becomes a train wreck that Tommy Lee Jones should be arriving any minute to be chasing Han...(which would have improved it).

 

She closes her eyes, calms herself, focuses and proceeds to beat Kylo Ren. She’s either worked something out herself, or it’s passed to her by osmosis… Otherwise that ‘moment’ of focus has zero purpose… which is always possible given it’s so badly written.. but I’m giving the writers the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to convey something (no matter how poorly conceived). Bottom line, it’s something that she wasn’t taught by anyone else. It’s either innate, or she’s taught herself to be more focused.

 

Rey even teaches herself how to read ancient Jedi books, the text is probably some obscure language that nobody speaks anymore, like even Tolkien would most likely find it challenging, but for Rey it's no big deal, easy peasey

 

I saw that as connecting with the force, more focus than real calmness.

 

It certainly allows her to control the duel from that point on… either way… it’s something she learns/knows for herself… she doesn’t require anyone to instruct her or point it out.

 

I'd agree, but do you think that Kylo is anywhere near the skill levels of Darth Maul or Darth Tyranus? He himself hasn't mastered the dark side even close to the level of those two, and he severely underestimated how powerful Rey actually was.

To this day I still hate that Rey physically won her first duel, but I do like the idea of Kylo being an inexperienced dark sider biting off more than he can chew, underestimating his enemies at every turn, and paying the price. I just wish it was handled differently and left more room for Rey to grow while leaving Kylo with at least some level of dignity and intimidation.

 

Maz Kanata introduced the idea of her having the force to her and to close her eyes and feel it, which she does at the end.

If you really want to discuss a flaw in the writing or structure of Rey's story, we can and I think it's there, but by your measure that you present for this right here, this isn't one of them.

 

Trying to defend the criticism of her being a Mary Sue, by implying that Rey got trained in the force by Maz, is risible. I can’t tell if you’re actually being serious or not… given that defence is probably one of the most ridiculous I’ve read anywhere about the ST. Even by your standards, that’s an extremely poor defence.

 

What kind of training does one need to listen to Maz’s advice? I don’t see why it’s ridiculous to point out what’s in the movie

 

The film establishes Kylo Ren in the role of ‘apprentice’ to Snoke, and at the head of the Knights of Ren. So there’s nothing to show he’s weaker than Darth Maul… he’s quite senior… indeed, Kylo can force freeze people and stop blaster bolts in mid air. The dude is clearly a very advanced darksider, given he can do things even Palpatine could not. Whether he’s actually as skilled as Dooku is more open to interpretation, as EU and various lore always pitched Dooku as being one of the most gifted Jedi of his generation, but Kylo has something Dooku does not I.e. Skywalker blood. So Kylo Ren not being at the top of the foodchain automatically means that he’s not the most powerful, and therefore has more to learn from his master … but in terms of relative power/skill, relative to other Sith apprentices, I don’t think the films establish Kylo as being weaker or less able/talented.

 

In my opinion Rey beginning the story talented enough to participate in Iightsaber battles without training isn’t “elevating her above her worth”. It makes sense in the story structure.

It’s like in JJBA part 2, when Joseph Joestar is introduced he has less experience with Hamon than the previous protagonist Jonathon, but is already more proficient because it would be boring to go over old ground. Likewise, in the sequel trilogy our protagonist can use the standard Jedi abilities straight from the first film

I don’t think it’s a flaw in the story structure that Rey is better than Luke. There’s more dramatic stories to tell than just heroes training to get stronger

 

But that’s the problem isnt it? Reducing the protagonist’s instruction in the force to a sound bite of cod philosophy, given by a bartender in a 20 second clip, speaks to the absolute lack of intelligence and writing guile on display in the film. And then having to project onto that clip that this is enough guidance to give Rey the advantage to beat Kylo Ren in armed combat. I mean, what was the point of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda when Luke could have got all the instruction he needed from the bartender in Mos Eisley?

The ST is one of the least dramatic stories in all of popular modern cinema (in terms of the big franchises). So what was the benefit to the story of the writers/directors giving Rey very little development, function and utility? Giving your lead characters the strength to overcome all obstacles by osmosis results in the least dramatic of outcomes.

 

DP

 

Do or do not, there is no try- Wuher.

Why not? Did Luke need more than that to lift rocks with the Force?

All Rey needs to do is quiet her mind and listen to the midi chlorians