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PT Is it illegal to be a Sith ?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by gezvader28, Apr 20, 2022.

  1. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    But as I mentioned earlier,

    Palpatine admitted nothing of the sort to Anakin.
    He said he had knowledge of the force, including the dark-side.
    Anakin activated his saber and said "YOU'RE the Sith Lord" with no affirmation by Palps whether he is or isn't.

    Now in a lot of western countries, this probably wouldn't even make it to court.

    In the democracy that Padme loves so much....no idea, might be enough I guess. But if that is the case it's no different from the empire when it comes to law.

    person 1: *accuses person 2*
    Person 3: *arrests person 2 on accusation alone*
     
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  2. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 9, 2017

    The Jedi don’t care about the legal red tape. They don’t need Palpatine to outright admit he’s a Sith Lord, Anakin’s testimony is enough evidence for them to believe that he is. And their judgement on that matter was right.

    Like I said before, the Jedi acted extrajudicially, that not what’s being debated. Palpatine being a Sith ties him to the conspiracy to destroy the Jedi and take power. Is their reason for Mace to doubt Anakin? He doesn’t fully trust him and still doesn’t wait for more evidence. You can call that movie logic but i call it Mace making a correct judgment
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2023
  3. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    well they should, they serve the senate, Republic ;)


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    really?

    Their reaction led to order 66...

    "the attempt on my life has left me scarred and deformed"
    Hence Jedi are traitors and need eradicated. Sure order 66 would have happened anyway. But they played right into his very hands by doing what they did.
    If you think thats a correct judgement, well, alright. Disagree with your assessment.
     
  4. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    Got any proof for this? For all the Jedi could know Sidious was the one kicked out and he is trying to save the Republic (which is one way to look at his actions)


    Are we to arrest people for not being altruistic?
    So the council 'deduced' this did they, do they have evidence? Sounds to me like Lom might be a traitor more than this 'Sidious'.

    We don't know if Palpatine would (well we do but not in universe they don't), since it doesn't come up.
    Yes the alliance was right as they were reacting to crimes already committed not some potential future crime.

    if the Jedi have some special authority to take over the government it seems like something they would have brought up.


    That is a lot of leaps in logic more than connecting dots.

    So are you saying the Jedi were in the wrong for their actions?
     
  5. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

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    Mar 22, 2003

    uh ... what?
     
  6. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

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    Mar 22, 2003
    Can I just repeat - you need to separate what you know as a viewer from what the characters in the story know.
     
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  7. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 9, 2017
    That’s the facts as presented in Revenge of the Sith and The Clone Wars
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2023
  8. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    in ROTS Mace says "the dark side of the force surrounds the chancellor" even that wasn't enough to arrest him.

    The logic presented in this thread suggests that this alone was enough for an arrest. Yet they did not.

    "The Dark side of the force surrounds the chancellor" not grounds for an arrest

    but

    "yeah the Chancellor dude, he knows the ways of the force" apparently is.

    Now, I know people are going to jump in and go "but they believed Sidious was controlling Palpatine either directly or indirectly"

    1) this is daft...why would the dark-side surround the puppet?
    2) they still allowed the Chancellor to obtain emergency powers without intervening,

    [​IMG]
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Unlike those religions, the Jedi and the Sith kill each for the sins of the past.

    "The Sith are the natural enemy of the Jedi. As George Lucas describes it, the Sith were once in control of the galaxy 1000 years in the past. Unfortunately, the Sith's hunger for conquest got the better of them-so many Sith lords were vying for ultimate control that it led to infighting among their ranks. Such internecine struggles were exploited by the Jedi Knights of the era, and they were able to turn the tide and defeat the Sith.

    As Ki-Adi-Mundi states in Episode I, the Sith have been extinct for a millenium; however, not all were wiped out. A surviving Sith Lord sought to rebuild the order, to retake the galaxy, and to take revenge. This Sith Lord realized the dangers of having too many in the order, so he kept his existence a secret. It would be a long time coming, but he carefully plotted revenge. There would be only two Sith Lords at a time, a master and an apprentice, working in secret, planting the seeds for their eventual rise.

    By Episode III, the Sith are ready to reveal themselves. There's no more need for subterfuge, no more need for skulking in the shadows. Darth Sidious, the Sith mastermind, will make good on a 1000-year plot to finally avenge the fallen order, destroy the Jedi Knights, and retake command of the galaxy.

    --Star Wars Insider, issue 78; page 60.

    "The Sith are the archenemies of the Jedi," George Lucas explained, "and for a long time, they ruled the universe until the Jedi came along and got rid of them. The Sith characters in the previous Star Wars films were Darth Vader and the other apprentices-Darth Maul from Episode I and Count Dooku, or Darth Tyrannus, from Episode II and the soon-to-be released Episode III. The evil master Sith in all of the films is Darth Sidious, who becomes Emperor of the universe."

    --George Lucas, Star Wars Insider, issue 78; page 80.

    The sad thing is Padme says there is still good in him and Luke says in ROTJ there is good in you. Its recurring. There is good in him. And that will bring balance to the Force. He needs to get rid of the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.


    "He did realize Palpatine was going to kill him (Mace). So up to that point he was trying to do the right thing, but now he's realizing that with Mace dead, he’s crossed over the line and he sorta succumbs and says yes, I’ll do anything you ask so you can allow me to keep my wife alive. Then he (Sidious) says ok I’ll do that, but now you have to go and kill all the Jedi. Leave none alive or they will come back and get us - even the kids. You have to get rid of all the Sith because there are two of them."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

    The conflict between the Jedi and the Sith requires a total genocide of the other side. They cannot co-exist otherwise. The Sith take it one step farther by eliminating all religions. The Jedi, the Daygon and the Witches of Dathmoir were all wiped out, or nearly so.

    Not every country follows the same rules. Why would it be no different in another galaxy?

    Dooku was a Jedi up to before he parted ways. They know that Sidious was a Sith for much longer than Dooku was. He had a plan and an Apprentice. The Jedi know there is no such thing as an altruistic Sith. Just as there is no such thing as a Dark Jedi. That is why they don’t trust Dooku once they realize that has turned to the dark side.

    Lom identified Dooku as Tyranus and the one who hired the Pykes to shoot down Sifo-Dyas' ship. See above for altruistic Sith.

    The Alliance are criminals by your own standards. Palpatine was legally elected and altruistic by your standards.

    They did when they discussed removing Palpatine from office before finding out that was Sidious. If the Jedi can settle boarder disputes and blockades, what makes you think that they couldn't do this?

    But the correct one.

    No. As Mace realizes, as long as Palpatine lives, he has too much power and control. Their hubris was thinking that they could win.

    JANGO: "I was recruited by a man called Tyranus."


    LOM: "You have no business left with the Pykes, Tyranus."

    OBI-WAN : "Tyranus? You are the man called Tyranus?"

    DOOKU: "I told you everything you needed to know on Geonosis all those years ago, Kenobi. You should have joined me. Sifo-Dyas understood. He saw the future. That is why he helped me."


    YODA: "Know now we do that guide the creation of the clones from the beginning, Dooku did."


    BO-KATAN: "Who is this Sidious?"

    OBI-WAN: "I do not know much, but I will share with you what the Council suspects. Darth Sidious is the Sith Lord who orchestrated the Clone Wars and played both sides of it from the beginning. I first learned the name from Count Dooku, though any chance of learning more about Sidious from Dooku has been lost."

    AHSOKA: "Why?"

    OBI-WAN: "Because Count Dooku is dead. Anakin killed him while rescuing the Chancellor. With Dooku gone, we've lost a vital link to understanding the mystery of Darth Sidious. If you can capture Maul, he may be able to provide the missing pieces to this puzzle."

    They think that Palpatine's corruption is independent of Sidious, until Mace senses the dark side surrounding Palpatine. This refers to the fact that Mace believes that his corruption is more than political ambition. They're starting to sense that he could be the one Dooku referred to when he said that Sidious controlled the Senate.

    1. When the war began, they just thought that he was nothing more than another politician who played upon people's passions and prejudices.

    2. They only question him due to all the power he has aquired and his shifting goals. Now he's a crooked politician who wanted to hold onto power.

    3. Then they sense that he is more than that. They sense that he is the focal point behind everything. That he could be in league with Sidious this whole time. Only when Anakin says that he believes that Palpatine is Sidious, does everything come sharply into focus.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2023
  10. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    like those religions, they killed each other for theological/philosophical differences
    that is no different from Jedi and Sith

    As I said before why not arresting for having the 'dark-side' surrounding him then?

    conclusion:

    it is not illegal.
     
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  11. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 9, 2017
    Are you still arguing about whether being a Sith is illegal? We are all in agreement that the GL films don’t indicate anything of the sort.

    Now the argument is about whether the Jedi had the legal authority to arrest Palpatine for treason, which we agree they don’t have enough admissible evidence but they do correctly identity him by their personal judgment
     
  12. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    yes...as is the title of the thread

    in case you missed it.

    The rules of the board is not to go off topic, but I'm sure you knew that
     
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  13. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    But we’ve already determined all the facts about whether or not simply being part of the Sith religion is illegal ( it’s irrelevant to Palpatine’s arrest). Your last posts have mostly been on a different topic, whether the Jedi are able to trace Palpatine’s crimes back to him
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
  14. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    so, you get to decide that since all the facts have been established that the films don't say anything concrete then that's it, cased closed, move on to the next topic?

    Sinister still believes being a Sith is illegal. I'm bringing up examples where this does not seem the case at all.
     
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  15. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    I didn’t decide anything. I can plainly see that the original argument morphed into a new argument about what the Jedi knew and the ethics of Palpatine’s arrest

    I don’t think Sinister believes the Republic constitution outlaws being a Sith, he’s simply been explaining that the Sith’s actions make them criminals.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
  16. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    then we can discuss both?

    I still don't understand the "are you still arguing what this whole thread is about?" aspect came from tbh.
     
  17. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Earlier there was mention the true Jedi were “religiously persecuting” Palpatine by arresting him after discovering he was a Sith. But if George Bush was discovered to be part of Al-Qaeda, would the FBI arresting him be religious persecution of Muslims, no it’s clearly arresting him for colluding with an enemy organization. Not for his religious beliefs
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
  18. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    yup, so the answer would be

    is it illegal to be a member of the Sith organization: no.

    is it illegal to commit crimes: yes

    the original question asked "what are they arresting him for?"

    is it being a 'sith lord' specifically, or because they believe he is commiting war crimes?
     
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  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    The dark side surrounding someone doesn't make them a criminal, but makes them suspicious. Finding out that he is the Sith Lord who started the war makes him a criminal.

    How about both? If the Jedi found about him, Plaugeis, Maul and Dooku before the blockade and the death of Sifo-Dyas, they would be well within their rights to kill them for the past crimes of the Sith. But couldn't arrest them for crimes yet committed. Once those events happened, they have become war criminals and could be tried for their crimes in the courts.
     
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  20. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    why?
     
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  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Because the Sith will commit future crimes, on a galactic scale. The Sith would be an illegal organization, akin to how Nazi beliefs are subject to severe criminal penalties in Germany and Austria. Being a dark side adept is not illegal which is why the Jedi left Dathmoir alone. Likewise in the Empire, all Force users are subject to death or enslavement. Which why the Inquisitors hunted down the stragglers.
     
  22. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    that is faulty logic,

    you can't kill someone because they MIGHT do something.
     
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  23. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    The Jedi dont arrest him because he might do something, he’s already done something
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
  24. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Anakin: he knows the ways of the force

    that is all they know...and even then THINK they know, did Palpatine prove he even could? for all Anakin knew Palps could be a fantasist.
     
  25. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 9, 2017
    Anakin determines Palpatine is the Sith Lord when he reveals he knows about Padmé being his wife and that he’s troubled by her impending death. Implying he read Anakin’s mind. The Jedi are willing to believe Anakin that Palpatine admitted this because there is no motive for Anakin to lie about this.

    If learning the Supreme Chancellor is trained to use the dark side doesn’t put all the pieces of the puzzle in place I’d question the Jedi’s intelligence
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023