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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Happy Jacen Solo Day!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Trip, Dec 9, 2022.

  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    No I’m delighted and pleased. I do think we’re starting from very different sets of axioms and priors(whether we ourselves are able to articulate them or not). Someone else joining in the discussion and it not being this dyad of Jack and Jill dancing around the hill and t’is never the twain shall meet is something I was honestly hoping would happen(not least of all so Thrawn and mine’s debate doesn’t become some sort of unintentional spectacle or so unintelligible that no one can understand the discourse).

    I would concur with you that SW doesn’t really buy the entire notion that there is a surface identity or performance in contrast to an “authentic” self that is repressed or hidden.

    Regarding epistemology-I’m happy to concede mystery, or that God might know things we pitiful mortals will never comprehend-I just don’t feel it’s worth discussing such concepts, precisely because they are beyond our mind’s grasp or hidden from us. At the same time, I have a great deal of faith in the power of observation and reason-that humans can with some confidence know the world around them. That may be a naive perspective or an overly sanguine or anthropomorphic perspective but it is mine.

    Thank you, I do appreciate your entry.
     
    QuinlanSolo and Riv_Shiel like this.
  2. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    How so? I think the big "Luke is dead" angle would be more kickstarting the original plan:
    -What will the Jedi Order do without him?
    -Who will be Kyp's counterpoint regarding the Jedi course of action, a fellow first class Master? Mara? Leia? Kam? Corran?
    -Who would have trained Jacen/Anakin without Luke around? Or would it have presumed YJK ended their training already as it did for other YJK characters with merely the JJK ones still on Yavin IV?
    -Mara Jade being sick and wanting a child with Luke, well, was that a late slap on or could it have worked with Luke vaped in VP? Her already pregnant BUT still sick or rather the child is sick and was poisoned in the mothers womb rather than just her?

    Especially interesting is how Dantooine would be reinterpreted with Mara and Anakin (or Jacen) IF Luke is dead and she is alone and pregnant and sick already!!!

    But instead they took down Chewie. If VP would have killed Jacen, it leaves the NJO unbalanced and off. Sure a Solokid gone is big, as big as loosing Chewie but without the fan backlash as he was nowhere near as big with the fandom as Chewie was or Luke would have been. And he was rather not big enough yet to be a galaxychanging death. Except Solos grieving, leaving Jaina and Anakin bickering instead of Jacen and Anakin? Or if Jaina is off to fly with the Rogues, Anakin without a counterpoint?

    Nah, it was going to be Luke.


    He would have named Luke's kid Owen or Beru for sure! I still loath the name Ben Skywalker... Be(retho)n Solo I can get behind via headcanon retcon, but Ben Skywalker? Nope.

    Anakin is hesitant yet selfconfidant. A bit like Qui Gon Jinn.
    Jacen though is not merely rushing to be a hero as when he was younger. He learned from mistakes in the Shadow Academy Crisis. And unworthy? Well, I'd not say unworthy, more like he is impatient and wants it all, afraid to not get enough. He wants to be a Chosen One, have all the knowledge, all the power, all that he needs to save everyone and help everyone. And in looking too much into the big picture (as his mom does as a politician) he forgets the small details and to remain in the moment, focussed. Like young Obi Wan Kenobi, his mind is in the future and past and looses the present focus. Unlike his mom, who never forgot the little people and deails. In trying to emulate her thus, he forgets this key ingredient to success. Anakin Skywalker was more in the moment, but lost that focus when worrying for Padmé etc. he had to be brought out of the moment by his nemesis.
    Anakin Solo walks a balance without needing it all. Jacen thinks he needs it all to be able to walk the balance and looses himself in that.
    Oh and then there is Jaina, who gives no thought to all this and just wants to be and fly. Well, she lives most true to her self and her self is what the Force and nature made her and want her to be. So she walks the right path whenever she does that naturally without overthinking. She has fun, she has duty, she has a great track record and she can be herself and enjoy life AND do the Force's work. Whereas Anakin and Jacen have to sacrifice something to be themselves. Jacen sacrifices love for duty, Anakin sacrifices himself for love and duty.





    I wasn't implying anything like that... merely that teens with a grudge and opportunity might have done something. Imagine Jacen gave Tahiri some advice on what his brother would like? Empathic as he is he surely must recognise her adoring Anakin and might have helped her, in order to get him away from Tenel Ka. Cue Tahiri trying braids and red hairdye or such. I doubt he'd be as bad as suggesting that Anakin has a shoe fetish.. poor girl.

    At least they'd do nothing yet that which they would do decades later with unresolved grudges building up to dark ideas and trauma exploiting, according to some Essential Guide authors [face_peace].

    She is half-Hapan... every word she says is flirting, if she wants to or not. It is in her nature. :p
    Well at least that is how others interpret it, she herself has no interest in Anakin I am sure. If she wants the mechanic type, she can get Jaina instead of Jacen! Well... maybe she did.

    Hmmm?

    I was still enjoying how the NJO had Jaina investigate bugs AND cosplay alongside Mara long before she did both again later during Dark Nest/LOTF onwards.

    But yeah Conquest has nice scenes and offscreen adventures for her and Jacen both. Pity those never got a short story!


    Didn't we have some Jedi class rosters decades ago for all classes till the NJO????? Anybody please dig them up!

    I wish we had a full class image, with all the alien species classmates the YJK books mentioned in the battle for Yavin IV etc. but never named.
     
  3. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2014
    This right here is precisely the reason I have kept out of this conversation this time. If the desire foremost is to maintain as much of the text as accurate as possible (i.e. harmonize the various portrayals of Jacen), it will naturally lead to a VERY different opinion on what the best interpretation is then what you would get by reading the clearest intention of the original text and interpreting future works as erroneous. It creates the option of either "talking past each other" (as you say), or shifting the discussion to a more general "how should text be best interpreted" discussion. I see no point to the former, and have no interest in the latter.
     
  4. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Trying to harmonize everything from Jacen's last appearance in Apocalypse to the YJK is possible, its like a puzzle with edges and lines filed off, unevenly matched, or simply not always intact. You can create a coherent picture, but to an extent-you're going to have force it, and thus the picture you get is going to be a very subjective reading colored by your personal biases.

    Even you're second option is ultimately arbitrary-Jacen is written by multiple authors over the course of nearly twenty years. Some people like Jacen up through TUF, others through the YJK and Dark Imperium crisis, others dislike the character and base their interpretations around this prior. I like NJO Jacen, though I'm something of a Legends totalist(meaning I don't dismiss major sections of the old EU just because I dislike them or I'm not too fond of them, barring a few exceptions-as I feel its unprincipled and arbitrary to say, "this part is bad, and I won't take it into account".).

    I think Thrawn and I have very different impressions of Jacen as a character, and his merit-I'm more unabashedly a Jacen fan, and Thrawn while I don't think he dislikes much less hates the character, reads a lot of subtextual motivations, psychological idiosyncrasies, and social and emotional failings into the character I don't. So we are in some sense running past each other.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
  5. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Loving Tyrant of SWTV, Lit, & Collecting star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2008
    MRW a ****post turns into a month-long pages-long thread about an ancient debate but I'm also too indifferent to do anything about it. Never change Lit
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    @Todd the Jedi - even so, let me know if you do think any of what I'm saying is too much? No desire to derail things, and outside POVs are always useful... :D

    To be clear, what follows is a combination of me still trying to explain my original comments, and finding the discussion interesting because of the way it acts as a way to think about the novels/stories and what STAR WARS is or "means"...

    Nope, you're good... this isn't a private discussion, everyone's welcome to join in. :D

    I absolutely agree with all this. ;) Except that from my recollection (and it's been a long time since I looked at this seriously), I don't think Duns Scotus was talking about a univocal use of language, but emphasising the individuality of concepts - they're two different things (though I have a vague idea that his critics may not have properly distinguished that particular point)...

    Well, I'd not take such a pessimistic view of my own contribution, but it's always good to know how I'm coming over to other people... :p [face_peace]

    Oh, it's definitely entirely witting. ;) And it's definitely very much about the genre. This is specifically about how we interpret Star Wars, though it's also about the limitations of perspective, and as such, it's about character and human nature, and the wider studia humanitas in the old-fashioned Reianssance sense...

    As to "true self", I'd actually use the conclusion of the Ep.III novellisation to explain what I mean - consider how Skyguy's failure to recognise the internal nature of his drives propels him into becoming Vader: "there was no dragon". That's an example of what I mean by the dangers of doing rather than being, an un-selfawareness about his own nature that creates problems...

    And you're right that I'm not meaning to indulge in relativism or mere postmodernism - but I'm not sure I'd call my interpretation "better", simply that it's based on a more rigorous set of interpretative parameters, emphasising the limitations of POV...

    See above in my reply to QuinlanSolo.

    (I'm going to try and condense this reply more than I have been doing, so let me know if I skip anything you want a response to?)

    What would you say if I suggest that "thought" makes it a philosophical question...?

    I'd say that's what we're both talking about here, debating the nature of those concepts - I'm not rejecting or ignoring philosophy, merely offering a different interpretation...

    And I'm saying Jacen's thinking raises questions about the argument that he lacks Palpatine-style ambition - he tells himself it's about peace and the greater good, but is that compatible with the extent to which he wants to see his dynasty as beloved, righteous leaders of the Galaxy...? [face_thinking]

    I just think that's a question worth asking (hold that thought)...

    Why would it not be equally salient? Surely the moral and existential problems of lightsabering through ranks of alien infantry are the same whether they're controlled by Yuuzhan Vong and controlled by Hutts...

    That's a separate thing from the relationship between the YV and the Force, which as you say is important to the overall story of the NJO...

    That's the question, yes. What's your answer to it?

    Well, yes, in terms of his psyche being an aspect of reality - what they aren't is an objective and reliable reflection of the surrounding external reality... which is what I was talking about.

    Now this is an interesting response, but one that perhaps explains where we differ - I emphatically don't share your equation of "words" and "human tools" (yes, technical philosophy can strive to engineer precise Platonic forms of phrasing, but in the ordinary case of things, they're emphatically only approximate, evocative).

    As I said in my previous round of responses, I'm a fan of Wittgenstein.

    I'd also call myself a Scotist, which seemed like an incredibly selfindulgent thing to say as a spontaneous reaction... but then QuinlanSolo went and actually brought Duns Scotus into the debate, so I think I can drop that in there for consideration (and also because it's a nice piece of synchroniety - and yes, I'm a fan of Jung as well)...

    Actually, I'd identify an important difference. I'm not insisting on a specific interpretation, my fundamental point is merely that the text doesn't tell us, it only shows what Jacen thinks...

    As to Lumiya, we have qualitatively more information, in that we get glimpses of her POV and Alema Rar gets to rummage around in her private space, but there too I'd be very wary about assuming we know too much about her real interpretations...

    No, this is specifically about the category of evidence we're dealing with, namely perceptions, one person thinking about another, which is essentially narrated speculation. When the text consistently says SSDs are 8km, in contrast, I'd say the cumulative weight of that portrayal is compelling. :p

    No, that's precisely the point I was trying to get to.

    That's what I'm saying. ;) At least, I'm arguing that, in the rather specific context of portrayals of Star Wars characters' self-perception and perceptions of others, what's presented is highly conditional and unreliable...

    Yes. You've surely noticed by now that I enjoy that sort of wordplay, and if I can cover two points with a single sentence, I instinctively see that as useful to condense the debate, too. I don't think it changes the argument...

    I feel we're talking past each other here. So let me turn this around - is it possible that someone, by overthinking the idea of his own destiny, might be impelled or manipulated in the wrong direction...?

    I'm not entirely sure I follow what you're asking. I'm simply saying that the terms you used, "strong" and "weak", are often used to construct false binaries, and it seemed important to discuss that. I think these sorts of things are problems that everyone needs to be aware of, even if our intentions are noble and sincere - we can talk ourselves into corners sometimes (that was why I said "hold that thought" with regard to what Jacen thinks he's doing up the top)...

    I also don't think these are very "objective" terms. I don't think they're a good description. Perhaps that's where we disagree?

    True. I suppose my response is that I regard human nature as complicated - I don't think people are as simple as "strong" or "weak", and I also think a lot of what you're describing here is socially-constructed behaviour, not innate...

    I'd say that's maybe just a difference of opinion, but maybe I'm more comfortable with sincere and well-intentioned disagreement than you are?

    And what if Jacen's "strength" is the wrong decision here; what if Nelani's "weakness" would have achieved a better outcome...? That's precisely what I mean by "the wrong starting principles"... I'm not convinced that the strength/weakness duality is a strong interpretation?

    So you're allowing that he's complex and fluid in his responses, not simply "strong"...?

    Regardless, I'm not sure if I properly communicated the point of my argument, which is to suggest that the sense of shame and weakness he experiences isn't an existential experience, but a culturally-conditioned one...

    But the text is only describing Jacen's perceptions... there's no automatic reason to assume that it's accurate, or that all readers will take it that way...

    Oh, I'm openly admitting the bias - but equally, I don't think it's my primary motive here...

    (Also, a question: do you not also have a preferential bias towards Tahiri, as you seem to 'ship her with Jacen?)

    I'm not "insinuating" anything, nor presenting an interpretation I regard as negative - I'm stating quite explicitly that I think he struggles with uncertainty (which is just another way of describing the urge for right-action), but I don't think it's problematic in the way you seem to - I find it dramatically interesting, and empathetically human.

    Related to that, can I repeat my question, because I'm interested in your answer? "What would you say to the idea that the problems you're seeing are caused by people trying to do big, important things"...?

    Not the point I'm making, though - it's not simply that he has aides; Jacen has no deep practical understanding of the details... that limits the ways he can respond, the decisions he knows how to make for himself in that context...

    I don't see how this actually contradicts my point - notwithstanding the way she kidnaps him, Jacen is fascinated by Vergere's discussion of the Force, the combination of philosophy and technique she offers, and he becomes very loyal to her...

    That "disconnect" is absolutely what I'm trying to discuss... I'm simply asking if it's as fundamental as he thinks?

    I should maybe make clear that this isn't intended as a wider criticism of the idea of the vita contemplativa, withdrawal from mundane things - this is specifically about the nature of Jacen's individual disconnect...

    Okay - what do you make of the completely contrasting suggestion that her actions have a deeper meaning than they seem, both as a form of "silent prayer"/spiritual exercise, and as an expression of the benefits thereof?

    I know you don't agree, but is that at least comprehensible to you...?

    Well, "confusion, an inability to decide on a path" is exactly what I'm saying he's characterised by, except (a.) I see it as in large part a struggle to implement the Jedi ideas of right-action he's been presented with, and (b.) I don't feel any contempt for him doing this, and I don't really think he deserves any...?

    This is a difference of approach - I view POV as innately unreliable - the text fundamentally relates the characters' perceptions and opinions...

    If we can agree on that, we may reach some understanding...

    (I could say more about the text in TUF, too, but that's maybe a distraction...)

    That... is not what I was saying... not at all...

    I'm saying Jacen is characterised by an impetus towards right-action and an uncertainty as to how to implement it; this leads him to seek guidance from those who seem more insightful in the mysteries of the Force, and also leads him to admire those who appear more confident - but in Traitor, he discovers that a lot of what he was impressed by in that second category was bluff...

    And yet, they're a trap. By jumping through the hoops to show he can "make hard choices", Jacen proves he can't see the bigger picture... and causes a bigger crisis...

    I hadn't thought of it in that way until now (another reason I appreciate this discussion), but... yeah, that?

    Coincidentally, due to her crushed throat, because of Vader's response to the vision, not the vision per se...

    What's your reading of the line where he tells Jacen that his perceptions of him are going to be inaccurate? Do you assume this is misdirection, or just meaningless verbiage?

    Regardless, I'm not convinced we're "supposed to" trust what we're being told at all...

    :D

    I'm not sure - I'm always conscious that my POV can be inaccurate - but that's about caution rather than confusion or perplexity...

    That's... a pretty good argument. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm impressed... :D

    I always thought the name suited him... :D

    Which Anakin?! [face_laugh]

    I'm still pondering your comments on the Solobrats... [face_thinking]

    Not a clue what this means here...

    I tend to think the Hapans and Dathomiri have a lot of self-control and agency in these things... you're not wrong that they're also good at deflecting, but I'd see that as a different technique?

    I think there's something a conspiracy of silence about... well, that would be saying, but I remember an Insider sidebar that made an in-joke about a slightly off-camera piece of Fleet Junk no-one talks about explicitly, and I wonder if Jaina was involved in "Jedi engineer" mode...? ;) [face_whistling]

    Seconded!!

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
  7. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Loving Tyrant of SWTV, Lit, & Collecting star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Nah y'all are good. I just get a kick out of people famously not having the best sense of humor round here. Trip's probably watching this unfold in bemused horror.
     
  8. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Well, now this dance is no longer two, let's pick up the pace ;);)

    I am saying what it would take for Anakin's attitude on his grandfather for me(as a reader) to not judge him as irrational or fearing it. So in some sense yes, but from me, not for Anakin, as I'm discussing what is a rational(and I think) healthy attitude on the subject.

    Its my foremost argument here that Jacen is more than anyone else in his generation, including his uncle-a man who wants to walk towards and on that higher plane. Of the abstract, of ideas, of the realm of the spiritual, he wants to be righteous, and he wants to understand-he wants to learn. He wants to grow in the force, he doesn't want to be, to use a RL example-a Christian that takes his religion casually, or simply prays when he needs help, but who wants to become ever more a mirror of the perfection of Jesus Christ, and to fulflill the commands given to him, or a Buddhist that earnestly seeks with every breath-nirvana, to shorten the cycle of reincarnation, and so on. Jacen is a deeply spiritual and I would argue at the core, religious man. This explains his early war angst, his "disconnect" from his peers, especially those not blessed with the force, his force soujourn, and even towards the end of his life-a total submission to destiny.

    It's interesting to note Jacen's ideas of a New Order-that is a sort of Imperialized Galactic Alliance doesn't really transition into any sort of Allana led empire. Maybe he never really connected A to Z in his mind, but you could also argue that yes it was like Palpatine-in the sense the order Jacen was building was never intended to be permanent. He wasn't going to name Allana his successor-not in a formal dynastic sense. Then again, maybe so. For all we know, Allana would have slain her father and taken the reigns of the galaxy, and disposed of the tyranny Jacen had built(sort of Leto Atreides II in Dune). Jacen never got that far-but we can safely assume that he didn't intend Allana to enter her throne room surrounded by GAG guards(or their successor), as that's against the spirit of the vision he sees.

    So its not really dynastic or creating a dynasty in the way you're suggesting.

    The Vong aren't connected to it, they are in some sense-outside of it. Does that mean genociding them is fine? Are they some sort of cosmic abomination, that which should not be? Or is there something else at work-how you deal with the Vong in a military sense is absolutely connected to what you believe you owe them. If they're's something else going on-then maybe. The Jedi should hold back and try to figure out what the deal is. Its not the same as dealing with a mundane foe, like say a revanchist Imperial remnant or something.

    You've just summed up the totalizing question of Jacen's life. The best answer I can give-is follow the path that you are guided towards, as the universe loves you-and even if not, you've got to give it everything and love it back anyway.

    Plainly no, I am arguing Jacen's view of the force is the correct one. Or at least more correct than his brother.

    Hmm...I'd say I'm something of a platonist in my heart of hearts, but in general I take the epistemological realist perspective-that is words and concepts align(generally) with external reality. Whether you believe language is a human construction, or some vague shadow of a purer platonic realm is a much more academic debate. To give an example-when humans describe a tree, the words they use-correspond to the object in nature we call "trees" and we can have confidence in this, rather we must have confidence in this.

    Lumiya has only maybe...a few POVs in Sacrifice, maybe a few more, (I read Sacrifice last summer). So yes, I'll concede we know a bit more about her headspace, but the comparison is more useful than you are implying here. If Lumiya's entire aim in LOTF is some elaborate plan to win over Luke romantically-we could argue what we see in her POVs is self delusion, or even a broadcasted lie she tells herself, so Jacen and Alema don't sense her true intentions. We have Tahiri seen in late LOTF through Jacen's eyes, Ben's, Leia I believe, probably others. In general we get a consistent picture that I stand by aligns with my judgement of the character. If you're arguing its an elaborate trick, the same logic can be applied to the aforementioned Lumiya.

    "John saw Jane running down the track in her morning work out routine" this is how John's POV, and we can argue his POV is unreliable-but he's describing what Jane is doing, so we can confidently assume she is actually running on the track.

    And I'm arguing that the text(and SW's general narrative conventions) don't present this option, therefore we can and should as readers be confident in the text as being reliable.

    You did put me on my toes I have to admit-but tbh I felt it forced me to address a unified point two separate responses would have been better served in response too.

    I'm tempted to say if the force is involved no outcome is wrong, but then I feel that Luke dying on Tatooine at age 10 is a "wrong" outcome. If that did happen, then things would play out in such a way so Leia would take up Luke's role. Or at least, a broadly similar stream of events would play out-because the force's will does seem to "desire" certain outcomes. The only way a character could end up with a "wrong" outcome, is if the force itself has to "readjust" somehow in response to it. Anakin Skywalker dying to a beating from Watto is a "bad" outcome, because it would be so utterly contrary to the force's will that very negative (metaphysical and mundane) consequences would result until balance was restored. Like a river hitting a dam or being poisoned. Does that make sense?

    I'm arguing "strength" and "weakness" are adjective descriptors that can be fairly and neutrally applied, and with accuracy. For example-someone who can bench-press 300 pounds, and someone who struggles to get fifty-one is "stronger" than the other by a measurable and definable metric. Things like emotional solidity are far less measurable and are a lot more subjective-but I do think you can make that judgement, without saying the "weaker" person is inferior in some ontological sense.

    What exactly is "socially constructed" here? We can argue societies have differing ideals of what strength and weakness are constituted of, and we could have an entirely separate discussion about constructivism. My point here is not to make some sort of ontological judgement of worth, I'm applying descriptive criteria that vary from person to person. To use an example pertinent, Luke is still much stronger than Jacen even in Invincible in terms of force power. This really isn't a discussion of human nature-unless we want to discuss whether or not applying the criteria, I've discussed is in some sense limiting, discriminatory, or straitjackets people into categories divided into bars they either clear or don't (and I am really not in the mood for that discussion).

    If Nelani had killed Jacen (or become his apprentice) and taken Lumiya's offer, would her compassion and utter commitment to Jedi ethics have produced a better outcome? Maybe? Maybe not. For all we know-a Nelani Dinn in Jacen's position might have not arrested a Corellian dissident on Coruscant who then proceeded to conduct a terrorist attack on the GA senate, thus leading to a much bloodier and more savage war. Jacen is willing to burn a world to ashes if it saves a 100 trillion children down the line. If said world doesn't burn, those 100 trillion might grow up in a galaxy ridden with war and terror, or they might never be born at all. That's the core of the 'hard choices" Jacen is making.

    Jacen is in utter agony, and yet manages to use the force to build mental walls to hold off the pain. I'd say that's "strong". But then we get into what defines "strong"-someone might argue crying out at all when under torture is evidence of weakness. I'd concede that strength and weakness are culturally contingent concepts-but that doesn't make them any less useful or true.

    I'm not sure this follows-what Jacen experiences and his reactions, are so far as I know-pretty universal to the human experience, and maybe this is overgeneralizing, but I would think most people in his position would be thinking and feeling the same way. So no, its not "culturally conditioned", it is universal-as subjective as it is. And indeed, existential.

    And I'm arguing Jacen's perceptions comport nearly completely with external reality(or Tahiri's subjective experience within external reality). So we're just disagreeing here.

    Well thank you.

    I'm fine shipping Jacen with Alema Rar. (I think Jacen is actually compatible with a lot if not all of his female contemporaries). So that's a non sequitur.

    Well, that gets back to the main theme I outlined at the beginning-Jacen is deeply spiritual and his uncertainties are bound up, in his concern for the spiritual. So I don't judge his doubts or angst as psychological hang ups, as you do. But as spiritual struggle, and growth.

    Well why should people not want to do "big important things" especially those that are supernaturally blessed with incredible power and seem to have the universe's sapient will behind them?

    That's fair (I would believe Jacen did try to study say-fleet theory, commando tactics, etc...) off screen (or at least he's diligent enough to have read the textbooks). Jacen isn't a military man by profession, and his political experience at best involves having a mother he would have absorbed a lot from as well as spending lots of time on Coruscant interacting with politicians(including Omas). We see Jacen engaging in bureaucratic shenanigans in Sacrifice, and even boasting at "winning" the game without using the force as a crutch (this was how he changed the laws to grant himself the power he had).

    So, his reliance on other military commanders, a personal praetorian force, and just sheer tonnage is sensible given his circumstances. The people under him are the ones expected to handle the details, and do the sort of things Jacen can't, (or not with the same expertise and deftness).

    Vergere is the seminal teacher, the preeminent mentor of Jacen's life. His uncle could teach him the basics, Lumiya could give him the final lesson, but it was Vergere who "made it all make sense" who "opened his eyes" or "led him to enlightenment". Jacen's loyalty to Vergere comes from this-she has had a profound influence on his beliefs, understanding of the force and himself.

    I don't think Jacen believes force sensitives are superior, but I do think he is willing to sacrifice "carnal" or 'worldly" things and people for the greater spiritual purpose. That includes relationships. It should be noted, it hurts Jacen to do this, so he isn't entirely some world rejecting ascetic. So I'd say its not fundamental to his worldview-just that its a sacrifice that when demanded from him, he won't flinch from.

    Okay I see you're point, and yes I comprehend it. I disagree-Mara outright snaps at Jaina for focusing on her boyfriends/relationship drama while things are deteriorating around them.

    If Jacen has any confusion it boils down to "what does the force want of me?" I think maybe our disagreement comes from our different frames here. I'm using a spiritual perspective, you are giving a psychological one.

    Alright going to the Doylist here-I think narrative POVs in fiction are in general meant to be taken as given to the reader, unless otherwise stated or implied in such a way as can be clearly discerned. When we read something in fiction-a general assumption I make is "the author wants me to take what is on the page as true, or at least partially "true" within the narrative", they're may be ambiguity, it may be made clear what I read was false or misleading within the narrative, but we are never supposed to doubt the actual integrity of the narrative itself, again unless this option is explicitly presented(or clearly implied) in some way.

    When I say "taken as a given" I don't mean "at face value" as much as "authentic in some way for the greater purpose of the narrative" we shan't consider the narrative unreliable prima facie.

    Again this may be our different perspectives. Right action isn't always clear, it doesn't always "align" with the role he feels and knows he must play. (I believe there's a concept in Taoism called Li-something to do with one's natural path or impulses, to fight against them or ignore them brings disharmony, but to follow helps to keep the universe in order). What is the right path, that is the path that aligns with the force's will, and how does Jacen know, and thus act on said path? In Traitor-he embraces the path he was always meant for.

    Yet..the big picture is one of the main reasons Jacen kills Nelani Dinn. If Nelani kills Lumiya-bad future B results, if he kills Nelani and takes Lumiya's offer, good future A is made possible/preserved. Maybe that's a false dichotomy, but the entire point is directly related to what you're discussing here. Decisions and the bigger picture in mind.

    Its very Classical-action taken to prevent a prophecy causes it. Coincidentally in Greek mythology-the destinies of men were not in their control, and so someone who took action to prevent something he was warned would happen, thus causing it-was meant to be. Also she died of a broken heart.


    Putting on my doylist hat again, I don't think the authors wanted us (the readers) to attribute the sort of uncertainty to Onimi's claims you're making here. Its the end of the series, and the final antagonist has revealed himself-we as the readers are supposed to take Onimi at his word. As is Jacen by extension. As the for line you mention-Zonama Sekot says something similar-people quote Vergere to Jacen. I don't see much more need for commentary on it.

    ;);)

    As an aside I do find this debate really interesting, and I am genuinely pleased we can have this discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
  9. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    While reading the Darth Caedus Wook page (just to gain some additional insight into the conversation, as I never read the NJO and beyond and am mostly familiar with Jacen from the YJK and Bantam-era novels), I came across this hilarious and highly snarky bit of commentary:

    "For some reason, Jacen Solo and all the other members of the Skywalker-Solo clan were afflicted by lazy eyes around this time."

    Presumably a bit of subtle criticism there directed toward the artwork of Crimson Empire III, which I now have to read. Here's hoping Jacen and the rest of the clan overcame this obstacle, as they did so many others.
     
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  10. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Thanks - I always get too precise and careful when I worry I might cross someone's lines, and that doesn't help the surface-level humour quotient. But if it's unintentionally hillarious anyway, I'll take that, I guess. :oops:

    And I always imagine that Trip knows what he's doing. Maybe I give him too much credit... [face_thinking]

    Let's see if I can finish a reply over lunch...

    EDIT: Nope. :p

    So, what would you say if I suggest this is a subjective reader-response that illustrates the range of readings that are possible?

    Specifically, what would you say if I compare this to my own interpretation of Tahiri's actions in the Caedus storyline...?

    And I find it odd that you seem to be resisting the idea of a rational concern about what Vader's narrative implies for Jedi teaching, but that's a separate point, and perhaps less pertinent...?

    Wheras my argument is that Jacen is perhaps too focused on the idea of self-perfection, and that the specific model of Jedi heroism he's following is perhaps a little contradictory and inadequate...?

    I think the division between his actions and intentions is a little artificial - Jacen wants his dynasty enthroned and loved, and his brutality is seen as a setup phase that will give way to it...

    I think it's exactly the same thing. People are people, and to suggest otherwise is mere bigotry. The irrational fear that drives that prejudice is understandable, but it's a perfect example of what I'm saying when I say that the "specific model of Jedi heroism" is inadequate...

    I want to point out that you can ask the exact same questions of ysalamiri, which seems ridiculous (and indeed, there have been times in canon when people asked the same question of the Jedi, which is perhaps a better way of illustrating the extent to which irrational boundaries and fear of difference are involved)...

    I'm just asking you to anwer the question you asked... but this gets us to the question I'm asking - how does Jacen know he's following the right guidance? [face_thinking]

    Aye, I know, and I'm disagreeing, for reasons outlined above...

    That's... the problem here. These words are not exact, the alignment is approximate, and I'd say we need to have caution rather than confidence, especially when we're looking at one person's POV on another person that they don't know the inner workings of...

    (I'm naturally excessively confident, so perhaps that's why I emphasise caution... with such excessive confidence!)

    I'm not sure how this argument applies - the key point I'm making is that we don't really know what either Tahiri or Lumiya is thinking, and that assumptions about both of them are dangerous - I don't see any real correlation between my argument that Tahiri's known character allows a range of readings that are more rational than Jacen's POV, and your deliberately absurd suggestion of an alternative motivation for Lumiya...

    Exactly. That's a perspective on the external physical reality, a bit like saying "Roccan watched the Space Bismarck approaching - a hyper-dreadnought seven miles wide, a vast Colonialist hammer with three hundred heavy turrets and five squadrons of fighters it its launch bay. The telemetry scrolled on his readout, as Squawk ran a sensor scan through the Blade Fighter's wing-mounted arrays."

    The point that's ambiguous is if the POV then continues to say "John knew that Jane ran to burn off angst, and that was something he could use to get close to her." That part is his opinion, his perception, and is not reliable in the same way.

    A description of what someone sees reflects what they're seeing, whereas a description of what they think reflects what they think; a different, less objective, class of knowledge.

    I'm not seeing any reason to share this opinion. :p

    Well, I assumed you'd just unpack the two points back out in your response... :p

    Very much. And I think that's exactly what Jacen's doing, actually... his stubbornness is potentially a derailing action - partially because his perceptions are limited by his cultural context - the Jedi, the New Republic, the shiny unified Galaxy...

    Whereas I think it's important to emphasise that people are compex, their external behaviour is often culturally-conditioned, and there's a risk of projection and pidgeonholing...?

    You missed my point by a mile - what I'm saying is that the actions that you code as "strong" and "weak" are themselves very often socially-constructed behaviours, simplified and stereotyped patterns that are conditioned by upbringing rather than innate forms of self-expression (and also, at the same time and for not-unrelated reasons, superficial expressions of more complex realities)...

    Perhaps that's part of why Neitzche had his breakdown, he realised that the "weak" behaviour of the flogged horse was entirely a social construct, not an existential absolute?

    Wheras I'd say those "hard choices" are delusions. I'm saying Nelani's right that Jacen should just walk away from the manipulative Sith who's playing him...

    Really? I might disagree. What it does, though, is make them thoroughly subjective... ;)

    I think they're probably a lot less "universal" than you think...

    But this is why I also think he doesn't understand Tahiri. ;)

    Exactly. But we can explore the basis of our opinions, which I think will give us some useful understanding of the text and the parameters...

    Nothing I hadn't said already. ;) I'm a fan of Anakin Solo. I'm a fan of Tahiri Veila. I'm a fan of Anakin Solo and Tahiri Veila as a team. Everyone should read Edge of Victory: Conquest and Edge of Victory: Rebirth, and obviously Star by Star as well.

    I'm also a fan of Jacen, though in a different way and for different reasons. Maybe I just think his POV's somewhat less persuasive...?

    Not actually the question I was asking - do you have a "preferential bias", as in, do you like Tahiri as a character, more than, say, Alema Rar or Nelani or Danni Quee? If not, why the focus on Jacen stealing his brother's girl? ;)

    Oh, they can be both at once; there isn't a dualistic binary of different modes of thought and being here, IMHO - the real question, I think, is whether we think he's going in the right direction...

    Anakin Solo, whose earliest memory is Emperor Palpatine and who is named after Darth Vader, has always had an an answer to that question...

    *wry smile*

    And that means that his actions become crude and blunt, and his reading of the situation is limited. I recall a scene, I think early in Sacrifice, where Jacen's passing off an out-of-date and shoddily-revised military plan as his own...

    Not the point I was making, which is that his interaction with her follows a pattern that's repeated in his other interactions with the important people in his life, both with mentors like Luke, Lumiya and Zonoma Sekot, with romantic interests like Tenel Ka, and with those he admires for their confidence, like Anakin Solo and Ganner Rhysode...

    Maybe that's also why I'm suspicious of his dynamic with Tahiri, as it's out-of-character...? [face_thinking]

    Maybe it's a mistake?

    I'm not convinced that Jaina's behaviour there was the best decision either (though I'd see it as to some extent a form of camouflage), but at least we understand each other here...

    I'm actually saying his psychology, and his societization as a Jedi in the New Republic, gets in the way of his spiritual direction...

    That may be the key point where we differ?

    I agree about the authenticity of the narrative, in terms of the overall flow of the story, but I think that's a different question from trusting the accuracy of these details in the way you do...

    Should I go into detail?

    Perhaps he does, but if he does, I'm not sure he sustains it into the next novel...

    Yes, I think it's a false binary...

    Was it meant, or was it simply a matter of Vader misreacting...? I'm definitely inclined to the second position...

    Wjhat about the part where his "claims", the "words" on the page, are a direct warning to Jacen not to trust his perceptions of him... and Jacen then accepts the Force-infodump uncritically...?

    Good. Good. :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  11. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    That is exactly the question Jacen asks always. The galaxy is littered with puzzle pieces, each holding a part of the truth he seeks. So he sets out to collect them all only to realize there is always more as the universe is infinite but his time in it is not. That basically is when and why he stops his sojourn happy to have something else to do and think about rather than his growing annoyance with the Force Cults. At first he could visit them, take part, learn and leave, then he had to lie and pretend to get into others that would only share with full time committed members, and so on until he got used to faking it to get more intel he wanted. A slow descend into dishonesty for a greater cause, his mission.
    But despite all the practical, philosophical, technique etc. he learned during these years, he also learned one thing: he is not one step closer to where he wanted to be and why he started the sojourn.
    In the end, he got new toys, new tools, new angles to look at the Force. But the Force, like a circle, got infinite angles and directions and sides. It never ends. He is not gonna find what he seeks that way. That is when he realized he can never achieve his goal from within the box he and the universe are entrapped in. But to get outside of it and look down upon it like a god, the Force, is playing with forces grander than nature and dangerously close to the Sith dream of ascension and godhood. Jacen may not be about immortality, but that is where it leads if all and everyone seem to fail you and you start to think only you can set things right for everyone, always, forever. A dynasty of me, me, me. With the faint hope his offspring shares his view, ideas and will continue as he would.

    While nothing on page ever hints at that, as it was not even planned yet when the books were released, the destruction of Centerpoint freeing Abeloth and subsequent supernatural quest of Luke, Ben, etc. walking in Jacen's footsteps alongside discovering Abeloths world and the ancient galaxy's recipe on how to become a Force God, all this would have fit too much into Jacen's path, his road cut short/not taken. Would he have unleashed Abeloth willingly if he knew? Would he do it to get access and knowledge from her regarding the "how to become a Celestial" intel? He was already sacrificing family and love, but to that extent then? Hmm..

    I actually see a lot of Jacen Solo in Stargate and SG1's tv Daniel Jackson, heck the actor could have played him even lookwise without the glasses!

    And like him, Jacen probably would have ascended, only to find his compatriots up there on the next level as boring and undeserving of his presence as in the mundane world below. And instead of going on an infinite trip to the "13th Floor" ascending to the infinite number of next levels up and above, he went back to his friends.

    Maybe it would have been wiser to instead of up, go down... microbiotic? Or rather do a Force Inception into the Quantumaniac world that is likewise infinite and crazy as going up and beyond the rainbow.

    Maybe, in a way, the books of LOTF onwards do not represent factual "happened as written" gffa history but rather are a metaphor for titular Jacen Solo's mind and how it shatters in trying to comprehend something grander than him, trying to graps what he can, then sacrificing it all, and even in his own doom, explore how he would have gone on had they let him, but with all FOTJ characters as a metaphor for him and his various potential futures instead as FOTJ is a retracing of Jacen's steps as much as a lookout to where he might have gone in his alternate futures.


    And to get this back to your original question "How does he know he is following the right guidance?"

    If he can not trust external guidance, and neither trust his inner guidance, his own compass, conscience and connection to the Force when giving up ego and becoming its tool/vessel, fearing ego will always taint his inner compass, what path has he left? If you are on a quest to meet god, all you will find is yourself. Lets just not misinterpret that and think that only you are god. Anyone could have been you, could be you. But some get Bruce Allmighty vibes and kinda forget that they aren't the only one as co-creation is as much true for reality as it is for the Force and its symbiotic harmony.
     
  12. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    munches Kantian popcorn
     
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  13. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I don't think they're comparable.

    I think Vader is a cautionary tale (definitely one his descedants-Kol for example) have taken to heart. For Anakin Solo in particular, I see little reason to spend much time thinking about it.

    Self perfection is kinda the reason why spirituality exists at all, because we humans know we aren't perfect. So we aim to become ever more divine, ever less like apes. Man is the ladder between animal and angel-and a spiritual man focuses on climbing the ladder(though this doesn't tranpose exactly on SW Daoistic/Buddhistic paradigm).

    In all fairness, I don't think Jacen had a coherent idea how Allana's destiny directly led from his own actions. If Caedus had won the war, I expect that a lot of different priorities and plans would have been put into affect for the purpose.

    People are people, but if they are not part of the universal sapient continuum-then how much do we owe them? This question matters, and Jacen does consider it.

    I don't think there is an "answer", only action-only choosing and acting.

    And I feel said caution is self defeating and unnecessary-confidence our language corresponds at least mostly to external reality is the foundation of being able to say we "know" anything at all.

    Saying my hyperbolic idea is more absurd than Tahiri engaging in 10d chess to bring back Anakin is rather rich tbh.

    Well you're discussing John's mindset, John's ideas, John's plans. They may or may not be viable, but let's say "Jane had recently been laid from her job, and had a bitter fight with her mother-John had seen her getting up earlier than usual and running at least for thirty minutes every morning, while he did not want tp take advantage of her, she might be open to him, given her state now than she was six months ago."

    Changes the context doesn't it?

    When has SW ever honestly been an IP that encouraged this sort of narrative subjectivity?

    But we don't know that-neither the readers or Jacen know for certain what the force's will is. Especially given the force's will presumably continues to the end of time/into eternity. Hence any judgement of whether something is a derail is always from one subjective(and not a perfect) vantage point.

    Well yes, but you're avoiding my actual point. Humans have differing abilities, or skills in various fields of endeavor. Intelligence and strength are the most obvious-and the most measurable. I do believe you can look at people objectively and fairly and say "Person A is stronger/smarter/emotionally hardier than Person B". Or the reverse. I have to ask-does this upset or offend you?

    (I just learned this recently) Nietzche's last words were asking "have I been misunderstood, Dionysus against the Crucified"(I think)-Nietzche's entire corpus is ultimately about a self driven life-no god, no law, no shackles-holding men down from achieving what they can really be. The issue as you note-is self actualization is subjective, and one's man ascension is another's failure. Strength and weakness are eminently observable, yet they are also unfortunately bound up with cultural ideas and expectations-even a darwinian "survival of the fittest" doesn't mean much beyond survival itself-which bacteria are much more successful at than any other creature on earth." So we are left with only confusion.

    Are they? That's easy to say when you aren't in the position where that choice is directly in front of you. Consequentialist ethics is not so easily dismissed.

    I mean, its not as if Anakin married Tahiri and Jacen is having an affair with her, or something. Anakin has been dead for fourteen years. Tahiri has the most characterization out of all the women you mentioned(though we could have a lot to discuss about Alema for example).


    "It has been said that anyone who knows the ways of the Force can set her- or himself up as a King on any world where only she or he knows the ways of the Force. Any Jedi could do this. But the Jedi, fools that they are, adhere to a religion in which the Force is used only in the service of others."

    I don't recall that.

    Again I disagree here. Jacen's relationship with his brother and his relationship with Vergere are very different, and you're saying they follow the same archetypal pattern. This just seems absurd to me.

    Is it?

    Perhaps...

    And my point has been, we have little reason from either a Doylist or Watsonian perspective to doubt the details as it were.

    That was fairly obvious.

    Was killing Palpatine in his office the force's will? I don't think we can say so.

    He's just riffing off Vergere...maybe? Because it gives Jacen pause for a second?

    McEwok is McEwok and I am I.
     
  14. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2012
    I know I'm jumping back on the pages here, but I feel the need to offer a Hapan tangent to our on-going Jacen debate!

    The Ania question: so I'm pretty sure that she's been said to be one of Allana's great-grandkids (or how many 'greats' she is....honestly, I'm not in the mood to look it up); but she shouldn't be. I don't mean biologically -- Allana will be Chume and, as such, will be expected to have kids, so that is certainly possible-- I mean that is extremely unlikely that a descendant of Allana would have the name Solo.

    Why not? A couple of reasons: 1) Hapes is a matriarchical society, so the last name of record would almost always be the mother's last name. 2) More importantly, Allana is the Chume'da, and every monarchy is concerned with legitimacy. As such, the name Djo, tying her to her mother and grandmother, is certainly more important to Hapes than Solo...irregardless (yes it's a word, and yes I like using it) of what we readers might think is more important.

    Going further, I think Allana refers to herself as Allana Djo-Solo at the end of FotJ, but this really just shows a complete lack of understanding on how a female-led society would work. Most cultures here consider the father's last name to be 'more important' (see: Jaina Solo-Fel) and are usually the last name used in a hyphenated name...so it stands to reason that it would be the opposite on a matriarchical world. Allana, therefore, would have called herself Allana Solo-Djo.

    After Allana assumes the crown, she would be clear to change her last name to anything she wanted....but for the legitimacy reasons I pointed out above, I find it unlikely. Let's assume that Allana has a couple of kids, and that the both have the Solo-Djo last name. Would the younger of Allana's two kids (or three) want to change her/his name to gain some anonymity? Sure. Would she (or he) use Solo? Again, unlikely. Would you want to use the last name of someone who burned planets? Someone who killed your great-grandfather? A name also tied to a moderately successful smuggler who simply married well, and a two-bit Corellian strongman who was the real reason behind the LotF Civil War?

    Again, I know nothing about Ania, but I do know that she would have to be tied to Hapes in some fashion because she would still be in the line of succession, even if it's ninety-odd.

    Yes, I'm painfully aware of just how nerdy this post is, but I do think that the SW universe does a miserable job of portraying matriarchical societies.

    Long live Allana Djo! Now back to our regular 'Why Jacen rules / He's an idiot' programming!
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2023
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  15. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    It should be noted TK never officially confirmed who Allana's father was-and while by the end of FOTJ, anybody who was anybody knew "Amelia" was really Allana, her actual status with regards to Hapes I don't think was ever addressed. So Allana adopting her paternal name, makes sense. She might or might not have changed it later in life(Allana is 10 by Crucible). Tenel Ka might have had another child with some Hapan noble, or Allana might have rejected the throne-we really don't know. Allana's actual fate(and Tenel Ka's to a lesser extent) is probably where the EU ending on a cliffhanger is most notable. We can make a fair guess-Tenel Ka spent the remainder of her life as queen, succeeded by Allana, but there's no confirmation of that in either Legacy or other sources.

    That said, we've brought up Ania's ancestry, while an Allana ancestry is the simplest, we have entertained less obvious possibilities, as the comic does allow for it.

    As for the Jacen debate-well its gotten a lot more complex than that-I couldn't really summarize it to anyone not in it(just me and Thrawn).
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2023
  16. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Which actually ties nicely into the lovely pic @ColeFardreamer posted on page1.

    While I do think that Allana is more sympathetic towards her father than anyone else at the end of this story and relatively at peace with her Solo-ness, I am also lead to believe that she's come to terms with her Hapan fate and is (relatively) comfortable with being the Chume'da...leading to my discussion above about names.

    I really only meant the last part in jest...I was on vacay for 2 weeks and missed the discussion in real-time; trying to filter through the arguments became more trouble than I was willing to expend on it! Todd was not wrong in that we've been having this discussion for years! Which, I think, is both encouraging and depressing in equal measure.
     
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  17. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    I was so crazy as to open a sister topic for... Jacen's sister Jaina, if anybody is interested.

    And as in there I went into name meaning and how it connects to the characters protrayal and fate, maybe one should look closer to that same for Jacen to understand his journey better?

    Jacen aka Jason... from greek mythology? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason
    There are some nice paralells to his life and maybe some insight to be gleaned from comparing both.

    Well Jacen was the son of Han Solo, the rightful king of Corellia. He was "married" to a witch queen Tenel Ka. And he was the grandson of the Chosen One through his mother's side.

    Well of course not all parts of myth fit his life. Maybe it is just superficial fitting like in the short quote above, but... maybe some more?
     
  18. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    @ColeFardreamer - at least someone gets what I'm saying. :p

    I'm still meditating exactly how to phrase my answer, though - maybe it isn't easy to phrase the sort of self-aware caution that I think Jacen lacks, but I suppose the question is where should Jacen's hero's journey take him? Or maybe even "did the NJO story team, by impelling him into a schematically Campbellian narrative, trap him in the wrong paradigm, not in terms of narrative structure, but in terms of the challenges and solutions they confronted him with?"... :eek:

    In general, though there are a few exceptions, I prefer my Star Wars to avoid too much "higher plane" stuff and think of its characters as "people with Force powers" - I thought the recent Willow TV series did this superbly...

    *hums the Philosophers' Song*

    Why not, though? [face_thinking]

    The point I'm making here isn't that there's a value-judgement equivalence (I know we each support one reading and not the other); it's that there's an equivalence of interpretative technique...

    Why not?

    I'd also add the observation that Vader isn't really reducable to a "cautionary tale", he's a complex, seemingly contradictory narrative about power and redemption, one that challenges Jedi line-drawing and invites philosophical reflection on the nature of the Force and the Sky-Solo dynasty's relationship to it...

    (Also, note that with this airbrushing of Vader, it's instead Mara, still irreducibly complex, who Cade hallucinates conversations with...)

    I might quibble with some of that, but it's tangential - the question I'm asking is this: what if one danger is trying to climb the wrong ladder...?

    So you concede what I was saying? ;)

    If they're people, they're people - the question, as you call it, is merely an illustration of how attitudes, even if sincerely held, can lead people astray, and I'd argue only "matters" in that context...

    I'm not sure I follow this reply - are you actually talking about existential will-to-power? Or just saying that the underlying purpose is unknowable?

    Regardless, the key question is - what if you make the wrong choice, and make a mistake? [face_thinking]

    I'm confident of the validity of the caution. Language is irrelevant to knowledge - it's merely a code, and can be an inaccurate one...

    I disagree. ;) But - amusingly - all you've got to offer here is phrasing, words that don't mean much; we agree in broad terms on what she's doing, there's no real debate on that; all you're really expressing is a dislike of the idea she's more sophisticated and rational than Jacen realises - and you're still missing the idea I'm suggesting, that she's aiming for a wider continuity reset...

    More fundamentally, I think you assign too much accuracy to Jacen's POV...

    No, it reflects the same basic mistake - coding Jane in terms of a binary of resistance vs. "openness" (by which he means compliance with his will - pesky words meaning something completely different from their literal meaning!!)... and icompletely overlooking the fact that she has agency, choices and agendas of her own... :D

    "Look, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend very much on our point of view..."

    The idea is absolutely innate in the six-movie canon? ;)

    True, but so is the idea that you're climing the right ladder...

    No, it seems awkwardly simplistic to me... so much of what we regard as "innate" in people is shaped by societisation/education bringing out particular qualities or failing to properly develop them, and so many of our perceived strengths are also essentially social values, and there's so much of a compound tension between our different individual qualities, whether visible or not (as I said, I'm a Scotist, I place a lot of emphasis on the non-linear individuality of things - these comedy asides aren't just for the gallery, you know?)...

    I'm sure I've suggested to someone - presumably not you, if it's new to you - that it's a German translation of vicisti, Galilaee?

    But, I don't feel confused. :p

    *waves hand* Yes they are. :p

    (Also, in this case, it's a trap - Jacen's fooling himself with his ethical argument, probably because he wants to be)...

    None of that really answers my question. :p

    You've missed the end of the quote: How shortsighted of them. Is that not why they lost the galaxy to the dark side?

    Is that not exactly the problem? Just because the question's being posed by Sidious, doesn't mean that he's not correctly identified the flaw of the Temple Jedi, their adherence not - as he phrases it - to morality, but to rigidity, predictability, and false logic...?

    Let me see if I can find it... that at least would be objective? [face_thinking]

    Yes, I do. But please, explain your thinking? You're making clear your dislike, but I'm not following the rational argument you presumably think is allied to it...

    Yep. So...?

    As I said, I'm a Baker Street Irregular by temperament. I trust all the details to be authentic (if not strictly accurate), and thereby emphasis how much connecting them is a matter of interpretation...

    ("Sherlock Holmes is actually Mystique from the X-Men" has to be the best answer to the inconsistencies over Mary Watson, but notwithstanding its subtextual place in modern pop-culture - not least in Thalias being such a playful combination of Jen Lawrence roles - it's obviously a bit outré)...

    More on-point, would I be right to suspect that you recognize the implications this emphasis on subjective on-page POV holds for your argument, and your resistance is based on that?

    Oh, of course not - arresting him was. ;)

    More seriously, the question seems entirely separate from whether Jedi should trust Force-visions, the answer being "no, they can lead in the wrong direction"...

    Or maybe he's telling the truth? What happened to your confidence in the easy, objective meaning of the words on the page? ;)

    No, you're absolutely right - it's a great post, and explains some things really clearly and powerfully... :D

    "I am invincible!!"

    "You're a loony!!"

    :p

    Oh, this'll be fun. :D

    I always thought the Greek myth actually provided a nice illustration of where Jacen Solo went wrong - after making a complete mess of everything by deluding himself into pursuing political gain and outward reputation, creating only a pointless spiral of conflict and destruction, he comes across the old Argo sitting parked up out of the water, realised he'd never been happier than when he was off looking for adventures with the old gang, so he sits down under the ship to reminisce, and the ship then collapses on top of him...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
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  19. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2012
    This is true in theory, and is an incredibly profound line in a movie that is hardly subtle, but isn't what is portrayed in actuality. All of the movies have 'heroes' and 'villains' and it is very clear who is who. We never get a competing POV.

    The problem, of course, is that nuance doesn't sell particularly well, so the movies might not have had the audience it did, nor been as long-lasting. Indeed, perhaps there wouldn't have been movies after Star Wars if we'd been presented a more nuanced Empire where the villains weren't quite as clear cut...perhaps with a more benevolent Emperor. We can argue that the PT tries to be a bit more nuanced, but Anakin's line "From my point-of-view, the Jedi are evil." really falls flat. Did the Order have all kinds of problems? Sure. But I don't think it possible that anyone, other than Anakin or Palpatine, would have said they were 'evil'.

    Let's delve further: in Star Wars, we are presented with the fact that the Force has a 'light' and a 'dark'. Clearly, this is a '...truth from a certain point-of-view', but when we are presented with a competing philosophy, many people lost their minds -- both in-universe and out. In universe, the GrandMaster of the Jedi basically denounced this view in Swarm War. In our world: How many arguments about that topic are here on the boards? It seems to me that Obi-Wan's nuanced view is at deep odds with most everything else we see.

    But that's often all we get, so I'm not sure what else we're supposed to do. If this were ASOIF, I'd completely agree...Martin gives us lots of information from many different views and he lets us decide which is true. The EU, generally, doesn't give us that...and let's not pretend that anything after NJO is unbiased. LotF reads like propaganda written by the winning side shortly after a war.

    What could have been an incredibly rich, ASOIF-like story, instead became a cartoon -- with Jacen twisting his mustache, "It would have worked if weren't for those meddling kids."
     
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  20. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Is there? I'm making interpretative judgements about character's psyches. Judgements I believe are based on fair inferences of the text. You are making elaborately subjective interpretations that require reading against, around or simply ignoring the text all together.

    I don't disagree here. Which is why I think Anakin's attitude towards his name and legacy is irrational, and indeed a disservice to the man his grandfather was, good and bad.

    Well Jacen is "in damnation" though what that means in SW is somewhat different than western theology. If...however that sacrifice was part of the "plan" then maybe its evidence he was on the right ladder all along?

    No? I said Caedus would have worked out the details of "how do I get my empire to transition to Allana's glorious monarchy?" later.

    I'll bring up theology again. If you accept the doctrine of predestination, especially double predestination-one inevitably asks "what does a Christian owe the damned?" The Vong's relationship with the force isn't precisely like this, but it's the same idea. So no, just being "people" is insufficient here.

    I'm saying "the force is where your heart tells you to be, follow it true and you are following the force".

    Without language we have no way to conceptualize the world around us. It is simply a blur of empty images. Meaningless white noise, only separated by primal instinct(i.e. animals-food, predators, water-drink, cave-shelter)-ur impulses for survival we can't even articulate. It is language that allows mankind to escape this animal state of being. To claim "knowledge" at all.

    Is she? Or is that your wish fulfillment that Anakin had not died in SBS. It seems to me you are projecting your own wants onto Tahiri.

    The latter of which is irrelevant to the observation. Animals have agency, however basic-and yet we still make evaluations of their behavior, their mating and feeding habits-and accurate ones as well. John has his own motives yes-that hardly implies his observations are wrong. (I get the impression you are not an empiricist).

    I would disagree but that's a different discussion.

    Uncertainty is always part of the equation, that's one thing Jacen accepts by the end of Traitor.

    That is all well and good. At the same time-we have measurements and can make cold observations, and set metrics to base our observations on. Can James outrun Bill? Well yes he can, he can run much faster, being more in shape, and having better endurance. In the time Bill makes one lap, James makes three. There is nothing "subjective" about this-the metrics are arbitrary insofar as they don't fall out of the sky on our heads-they are consistent, unbiased, and simply true. All human activity is social(or socialized), but you seem to be abstracting said activity away from the real world in which yes-disparities exist and we can clearly see them. Your argument strikes me as built on avoiding empirical observation and the often unpleasant implications that result.

    Now you are avoiding my argument.

    How is my answer insufficient? I don't particularly "like" Tahiri more than Alema or Tenel Ka in some preferential sense. I think Jacen has an elastic enough personality that he's compatible with all three of them. Do I like Jacen/Tahiri as a pairing? Well its not my OTP or anything-but yes? It has its appeal.

    Anakin was never Jacen's mentor the way Vergere was. Vergere was a teacher, a guide, and light in the underworld. Anakin was a brother. They aren't remotely similar in how they relate to Jacen, or how Jacen relates to them.

    I was musing in response. I don't think anything ever got in the way of Jacen's spiritual journey.

    I recognize that your particular way of reading the text is not useful and is a step less bad than "lol it means whatever you want it to mean"-in which case why bother discussing literature(or really anything) at all. I apologize if that comes across as rude, or strawmanning-but I'm not sure how else to phrase it. Rigor and some degree of "objective" consideration is necessary if anyone wants to have an informed discussion at all.

    Mace fulfilled the force's will by dying. And force visions are absolutely necessary-after all they come from the force. Misinterpretation is no condemnation of force visions, just the Jedi who did so.

    I don't take every claim or statement a character makes to have some incredible relevancy no?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
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  21. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    I actually think it's much more sophisticated than you do - it's not that it tries to subvert its narrative or be too clever, quite the reverse (there are heroes, there are villains, and as you say, Skyguy just sounds stupid when he's venting his inner frustration about the Jedi); but what it does do is introduce complicated subtexts, whether that's the little flashes of ordinariness the Imperials show, or the earnest incompetence of the Rebels, the Frazerian tendancy of Luke to become Vader which provides the dramatic motor for the OT, or the mean streak Yoda shows when he decapitates the clones, symbols of the conflict that he hates (or, more meta, the way that Ahsoka's existence retcons the Prequel Trilogy, her omission becoming an implicit act of both narrative streamling and blatant suppression); and it ultimately builds its incredibly effective redemptive/transformative climax out of that - I don't think they "knew" rationally what they were doing with Vader in Jedi, but it was done, and the result was - is - brilliant...

    I'm going to have to give two answers here. Firstly, my obligatory mini-rant whenever anyone mentions those novels - they are brilliant in terms of narrative construction, character voicing, action, drama, mastery of a huge complicated storyline (and so on) but I find them hard to get into because I can see where the ideas and incidents are being taken from in the source-material (I have the same reaction to a lot of Tolkien, especially when I'm reading on the page), and, deliberately or otherwise, I can also see how that source-material is being modified (consciously or otherwise), to present a "fictional past" that's amped-up in terms of violence and villainy, designed to at once make the audience feel superior and progressive in ways they're not entirely entitled to, and simultaneously provide them with a paradoxically gratifying display of violence and villainy... :p

    (Or, the three-eyed-bird and Lord Varys are the problem, not any part of the solution... which is perhaps going way off-topic?)

    Secondly, I absolutely think that the pre-reboot Star Wars novel continuity is doing unreliable narration, simply as a factor of its focus on the third-person-limited POV - I'm fairly confident I can make an argument-from-the-text with regard to Denning's technique, but it's identifiable elsewhere, too (perhaps the most blatant example is the way that Cunningham uses "The Apprentice" to subvert Dark Journey, undermining both narrative and subtext)...

    Thirdly, I really like the idea of Jacen as a Scooby Doo villain (and I'm reminded of Nom Anor lampshading himself with reference to the "Solo brats")... :p

    I disagree with your coding of "interpretative" vs. "subjective" readings, and I see no reason why I should accept it... :p

    But to respond with a rational argument: firstly, I'm arguing that in the absence of sufficient character-POV narration, all intentions are objectively unknowable or unreliably observed (they are, in short, "known unknowns"), and nothing you've said has even begun to persaude me otherwise; secondly, while I carefully differentiate that underlying theory-of-knowledge, that definition of the framework, from the process of interpretation, I believe my own readings are every bit as much fair inferences from the text as yours (if not moreso, as I think my underlying theory-of-knowledge is more objective)...

    But we disagree on what that attitude is - you juggle around words like "fear" and "irrational", and you don't justify them from the text...

    Also, I suspect we do disagree on Vader. We certainly disagree on the implications...

    An "if" isn't evidence; it's merely a subjective reading... ;)

    Then you concede that, regardless of details, the brutal, destructive "empire" is perceived by Jacen as merely a setup phase, designed to "transition to" the endgame of "glorious monarchy" in which his dynasty are beloved leaders...?

    To answer this within the same Calvanist framework you choose: how do you know who the elect are?

    And is it clearer what I mean if I suggest that much of Jacen's uncertainty/inner conflict comes from the fact that he does not have a confident experience of grace and justification...?

    And I'm saying that Jacen's emphasis on Jedi narratives gets in the way of that... ;)

    o_O

    [face_thinking]

    [face_thinking]

    [face_talk_hand]

    [face_laugh]

    :p

    [face_peace]

    (See what I did there? ;) [face_mischief] )

    (... and yes, it's a semiotic code, constructed entirely from images... [face_whistling])

    :tie::storm::storm::storm::vader::storm::storm::storm::tie:

    (also, [face_chicken])

    No, I don't think there's any doubt, based on Jacen's remark and Tahiri's reaction, that she wanted to change the past and thus change the present - they both know that; where you and I disagree in our interpretation is purely with regard to the rationality of her actions and the scale of what she has in mind...

    And quite separately from that, there are questions about what the text tells us; you are asserting that Jacen's POV of Tahiri is essentially accurate, for reasons I don't entirely follow... whereas I'm arguing that (a.) Tahiris POV is objectively unknowable and (b.) Jacen's POV is objectively unreliable... maybe if we can focus on that difference, we might get somewhere?

    You're abstracting this too much. We're talking about a specific reading here, which, to use my paraphrase of your comments, involves coding Jane in terms of a binary of resistance vs. "openness" (by which he means compliance with his will - pesky words meaning something completely different from their literal meaning!!)...

    Is that an accurate reading, or is that more to do with his own wants, needs and biases?

    I'd say it's an extension of the same discussion, as it relates to overall STAR WARS tonality (but see the discussion with SiouxFan, above)...

    Well, the question becomes - should he be ignoring that uncertainty...?

    No, I don't think the implications, when properly interpreted, are unpleasant at all; without getting sidetracked by explaining that at length, I just want to point out that these simplistic quantifiable results are a highly subjective product of factors like training and motive (why is one of them "more in shape"?)... and yes, all human activity is essentially societised, but poorly-engineered societies, or programs that are poorly-adapted for specific individuals, can result in underperforming results that are misread as innate or problematric (and then there's the case of people simply reading the wrong metrics)...

    Or, as I asked, how does Jacen know it's the right ladder...?

    *Waves hand* No, I'm not. :p I'm referring back to my argument that the whole debate is a trap, and choosing to answer in an existential, deliberately nondialectical way. :p

    So explain that "appeal", if it's not a particular "bias" in favour of the girl of the same sort you admit you have towards Jacen?

    And Tenel Ka was a romantic interest, and Luke was both an uncle and a mentor, Anja was a spice-addicted con-game, and Ganner was an annoying jerk whose Kyp-line attitude annoyed Jacen but whose confidence he initially admired... and Jacen's interaction to all of them, regardless of the differences, falls into the same pattern; he shows an enthusiastic engagement with people who display qualities and skills in the Force that he perceives he lacks, and some frustration when they don't provide him with instruction in the way he expects...

    I'd argue that is the distilled essence of Jacen's Jedi-tuned social interaction, his pattern of encounter, and it's repeated regardless of context (one might tie this to his intense emphasis on lightsaber duelling, which he is superb at - you spar, you learn the interlocutor's pattern, you spar some more - and indeed to the fact he's so very good at it that he's running short of capable dance partners)...

    I don't understand why you regard this as a problematic take - it's not criticism of the character...

    Why don't you think that? Do you at least consider it?

    No, it's okay, your honesty about your position is appreciated... so the question comes; why do you think your own positions are so "objective"?

    And yet... Luke's visions in ESB are caused by Vader torturing H/L to send him a signal; visions in the Dagobah cave are "only what you take with you"...

    So how do you select which ones are relevant? Or, if a character warns that perceptions of them are "a lie", why do you insist on uncritical acceptance of the Force-infodumped perceptions of that character that immediately follow?

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
  22. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Them pulling the Ogglith masquer off him whenever they caught him another time under cover sure would be fun weekly!

    This reminds me of Heisenberg (the scientist, not the drug lord): Heisenberg's uncertainty principle can not only be applied to particles and physics. It is rather a fundamental principle in the universe working for everything.

    The more Jacen puts his focus on the big picture, the Force, universal concepts, the more he looses the small folk, every day problems and the consequences of the big decisions out of his focus and gets out of touch with who and why one did all this and tried to solve problems in the first place. And on the contrary, the more one ignores the big picture etc. helping in the here and now every day everyone with every small problem, the more one looses the larger connections and concepts out of focus and misses what causes all these problems or their roots.

    The uncertainty is not a 1 or 0 dual thing where one should or shouldn't mind it, but rather a continuum teaching to trust the Force rather than take matters into ones own hands and work with either side of the balance scale here based on ego and a limited perspective on the whole.

    Thing is, Jacen wants to know, to understand. He can blindly fall into the Force and give himself to it as in TUF. But now after his experience he wants to know and see more than just being a tool for the Force. He says, I am a willing tool, IF you tell me how it all connects and why you do with me whatever you do. In that regard Jacen, after having accepted the uncertainty in Traitor, now after TUF rejects it. He does not reject giving himself to the Force, but rather wishes to be in on its secrets and that is beyond wishing to recreate the one-ness he had with the Force in TUF. His initial drive to experience that again, or remain its tool in such a state more often for lots of other problems to be fixed made him sojourn to learn more. But lacking to reach it again, he asked himself: Why? Why not? Am I not worthy to continue in that role and work? And that starts a whole perfectionist angle of learning more, becoming more worthy and ultimately demanding from the Force, which sadly is not how the Force works. He was altruistic, yet impatient. He was selfsacrificing, yet demanding.

    I see a very clear Cain & Abel paralell here biblically speaking.





    And something completely unrelated that just fired up in my weird brain: Was Ganner Jaina Solo's Nelani? And did she manipulate him, secretly crushing on her, to do her bidding and find Jacen? If so, Jacen and Jaina both kinda sacrificed someone crushing on them... paralells. Well Jacen sacrificed both but it counts. I also wonder if there ever was a version that sent Kyp instead of Ganner. And another idea then popped up, looking at Ganner's story through the NJO, wishing desperately to be a hero, getting his epic sacrifice in the end, he stands out amongst all the original NJO character creations. He is a younger Jedi Knight, his personality and state of mind quite close to that of the Solokids, and given how he was handled I always wondered if his role had originally been that of someone else. Maybe even that of a Solokid actually!
    So when analysing the NJO inception, the Jacen/Anakin role-reversal, etc. and as in other posts already other characters that have been switched or altered by that (Danni, Tenel Ka, Tahiri, Jorallen, etc.) maybe Ganner also fits that bill in some way.
     
  23. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2012
    I don't know that I can agree on the brilliant. I do agree that the premise is solid and wonderfully complicated...the execution falls flat. We start with a brilliant baseline of whether secession is legal or justified, and what someone who grew up on Corellia might think of such a move, but that is mostly buried by book 2, and completely done away with by book 4. What initially starts as complicated storyline, is quickly narrowed down to a wanna-be Sith.
     
  24. If some Fans dont like Legacy of the Force why not pretend that the EU/Legends Universe ends with the New Jedi Order? the problem is that you wont enjoy Legacy Comics if you do that since it has references to the rest of the EU for me i believe that everything was Canon even things that i do not like for example SWTOR but that is just me
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2023
  25. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    One of my favourite aspects of LotF is the sheer factionalism involved, even if its not represented well.

    We end up with a five way civil war with overlapping aggression and neutrality pacts.

    At the Battle of Roche ten fleets turn up split across four groups.
     
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