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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Books The Essential Guide to Warfare by Jason Fry and a pseudonymous Scotsman

Discussion in 'Literature' started by whateveritis12, May 17, 2010.

  1. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Don't we see a fair number of corpses riddled with arrows in JvS, though? I think they're more common than you're implying -- though I see no need for a retcon, either. Well, unless they retconned them into homages of the GoW Torque bow.

    Ulicus drools at the thought of a SW GoW clone focused on Dessel's Gloomwalker career. =P~
     
  2. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    If there is a "Spotlight" section that highlights the careers of famous fleet officers, it would be fun to see entries for the following individuals:

    Ackbar
    Bel Iblis
    Wedge
    Thrawn
    Pellaeon
    Traest Kre'fey
    Gar Stazi

    Of course, these are my favorites, so I admit a bit of a bias. :p

    --Adm. Nick
     
  3. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    I'd like to know how Admiral Giel ended up commanding the largest armada in the Empire's history.

    Sorry, but most of those officers are already so high-profiled as it is. Getting into more obscure figures that might have performed so far unknown deeds would be more interesting. Trench is another obvious choice in that regard.
     
  4. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    True, but they are bound to show up, as most reference guides as a balance between the well known and the obscure. Of course, I would argue that an in-depth profile of Traest Kre'fey or Gar Stazi is warranted, as they are newer characters and are not well known in terms of general SW fandom.

    Admiral Trench would be interesting, though. Fleet Captain (and later Admiral) Vanicus would also be a fun obscure one.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  5. Armchair_Admiral

    Armchair_Admiral Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    What about Mar Tuuk? At least he survived his debut appearence. [face_mischief]
     
  6. Trip

    Trip Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    Oh yeah, the irregulars in both armies (especially the Sith) seem to've been stuck with whatever primitive weaponry they could cobble together while the main characters (i.e. upper ranks) had nice modern stuff. I'm just saying, bows-and-arrows aren't as prominently featured as people usually seem to remember. (Kinda like how Farfalla's ship isn't made of wood. :p )
     
  7. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    KOTOR already has a sort-of retcon, though - personal shield technology can shift warfare towards melee weapons. When a large number of combatants have lightsabers, that's probably true as well.
     
  8. Sable_Hart

    Sable_Hart Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2009
    To say that I'm looking forward to this would be an understatement. I like the idea of a Spotlight section on important military leaders throughout galactic history and I'd recommend that you get at least two or three major ones from each faction (yes, that includes the Confederacy!).
     
  9. Kaxs

    Kaxs Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Then we should throw in Lok Durd, Whorm Loathsome, and so on. TCW has enrichened the Separatists with minor heroes, that's for sure. Too bad most of them only appear once or twice.
     
  10. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Lok Durd, IIRC, appears in the Gambit novels. The Season One guide indicated that Loathsom escaped imprisonment and probably rejoined the Separatists.
     
  11. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Sovv is crying, Nick. :(
     
  12. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Forgive me, Sien Sovv!! [face_praying]

    --Adm. Nick
     
  13. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    ;) I am sure he will forgive you, Nick.

    Kre'frey and Bel Iblis need some closure, at this point. Heavy closure.
     
  14. Froggy22651

    Froggy22651 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Returning to a little something I mentioned earlier, I'd like to see some details about the use of drugs, genetic engineering, and cybernetics in the history of war in the GFFA.

    Here on Earth, soldiers throughout history have used chemical means to improve their fighting prowess from increasing immunity to pain, removing fear, or simply allowing them to stay on their feet fighting longer. Alcohol, narcotics, hallucinogens...you name it, they've used it. I doubt it's any different in the galaxy, either.

    Then there are the more high-tech means of enhancement that the GFFA is certainly capable of. Genetic engineering has been mentioned in parallel with cloning, but only for minor adjustments. Surely, at some point in galactic history, in different cultures, genetics have been used more drastically to create better soldiers, from altering the genome to make better warrior...to creating something entirely different and powerful to fight wars.

    Of course, genetic engineering is something done before the birth of a being, but cybernetics allow for augmentations after birth. We've seen plenty of organic soldiers and combat droids, but very little of the in-between: cyborg soldiers given mechanical means to far exceed what they would otherwise be capable of.
     
  15. Darth_Culator

    Darth_Culator Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2005
    I want exactly two things from the Essential Guide to Warfare.

    One, a complete history of the TIE series, which clears up the TIE Advanced/TIE Interceptor lineage confusion AND includes the TIE podracer.
    [image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/b/b2/TIEPodracer-RR.png]

    Two, an explanation for the Millennium Falcon's participation in the Battle of Sector 001.
    [image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/6/66/AkiraFalcon-STFC.jpg]

    That's all I want. :D
     
  16. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2003
    Did we need 13 new Ords, even if some of them have lost their prefixes? I think we did. A baker's dozen of new Ords probably wasn't Essential, but it was fun....
     
  17. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Speaking of Ords, we need more info on Ord Pardron. A major New Republic naval base during the Thrawn campaign. Info, Jason, info! :p

    --Adm. Nick
     
  18. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    And it was an Old Republic naval base according to the TTSB, meaning it was functioning during the Clone Wars... [face_thinking]
    But that whole thing with "Ord Cestus" bugs me - if it wasn't founded until c300 BBY, and as a prison colony no less, how did it get the "Ord" prefix? (I'm guessing the old "founded/abandoned/rediscovered" explanation is the best for that one)
     
  19. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2003
    There are a couple of nouveau Ords that don't make a huge amount of sense. Big galaxy. Weird things happen.
     
  20. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    It was named after Canderous Ordo:p Just dropping the "o".
     
  21. KansasNavy

    KansasNavy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2001
    It would kind of be cool to talk about the constant occupations of worlds and fighting rebellions affected the soldiers of the Empire. Not saying that U.S./NATO forces = Imperial stormtroopers, but it'd be interesting to see how Sgt Antilles on his third deployment to Kashyyyk -long deployment strains his relations with his family, affects him mentally/physically, and the trouble adjusting with the greater galaxy when he returns back to 'civilization' that barely knows its at war. I don't think Star Wars has ever really addressed this. And maybe throw in a little 'Imperialisms' that would give it a grimmer twist (censorship, COMPNOR meddling, clone and conscript soldiers, etc).

     
  22. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    With The Unknown Regions, we have the mention of at least five super-long-range military colonies that were put up after the end of the Great Hyperspace War. Might there be a mention of these in relation to the Ords, apart from O'reen which TUR went through?
     
  23. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2003
    OK gang. After a lot of reading and a lot of sifting through impassioned posts and discussions here, at StarDestroyer.net and other places, I want to throw a big one at you. Keep in mind that all of this is very much a work in progress.

    Let's suppose we had a new in-universe system for capital-ship classification. The lower end seems pretty straightforward in all sources:

    Corvette -- 100m-200m
    Frigate -- 200m-400m

    (Note that size is a rough metric, as classifications depend on more than it -- ships can jump up a class based on crew, armament, role, etc.)

    Above that things get a bit dicey. WEG seems to have called everything from 400m to SSD size a Cruiser, supporting that with talk of capital-ship size in the Old Republic. I think that's historically interesting and intend to play some notes on it, but it gets really strained as a classification system and has been supplanted by later sources. So while Cruiser is the next class after Frigate, clearly there should be some classes above it. (And we'll return to Cruisers in a bit.)

    The new version of Starships of the Galaxy (which I believe is the most recent book to tackle ship classifications) makes Cruiser a class, but things get a bit goofy with Battlecruiser and Dreadnaught. The discussion of SSDs indicates there's a Dreadnaught class, but SSDs get classified as Stations. The table refers to a Battlecruiser class, but as far as I can tell there's no ship in the book assigned to that class. SOTG is also pretty emphatic that Star Destroyer is a descriptor, not a class.

    Complete Locations doesn't formally lay out a classification system, but gives us a KDY-derived one in bits and pieces. It has Star Cruiser, Star Destroyer and Star Dreadnought as classes, and slips in a stray reference to a Star Battlecruiser.

    Whew. So given all this, here's my thinking of how the proposed new IU classification system should continue above Frigate:

    Cruiser -- every source seems to agree this comes next, with the real question where to draw the upper limit of the classification

    Battlecruiser -- a class in SOTG, however confusingly defined; there's a reference to one in CL; and the size range as you go from Cruiser and Dreadnaught is so vast that it cries out for another class

    Dreadnaught/Dreadnought -- class in SOTG, though confusingly defined; class in CL

    Some quick notes in hopes of making my assumptions clear and defusing at least some fights: Star Destroyer is a descriptor, not a class as per SOTG. (Though it might be a KDY classification.) Carrier is a role, not a class. Manufacturers call ships whatever they like, so we get giant frigates and relatively small dreadnaughts. Manufacturers' classifications such as KDY's are perfectly valid and will probably get some ink in the book, as will the observation that different governments, species etc. have different systems, and systems have changed over time.

    One final wrinkle: I'm also mulling a more generic, rough-and-ready classification system that might be used by commanders in the heat of battle. The idea is to cover vague terms bandied about in the movies and books and to make the writing of Warfare less clunky. For this generic system, in ascending order of size/capability I'm thinking Gunship, Cruiser, Battleship. Battleships are the big ships of the line that change the nature of a battle by their mere presence, cruisers are the medium-sized workhorses of most military engagements, and gunships include the small capital ships and anything else zooming around out there that isn't a fighter.

    So. Some questions for you all:

    1) First off, general critiques of these ideas?

    2) Assuming the above system (Corvette/Frigate/Cruiser/Battlecruiser/Dreadnaught) is workable, what is the upper limit of the Cruiser class in terms of size? And where are the lines dividing the Cruiser class into Light, Medium and Heavy subclasses?

    3) How do we define the Battlecruiser class? Where is the line between a Heavy Cruiser and a Battlecruiser? Between a Battlecruiser and a Dreadnaught?

    4) What class does the classic Imp/Imp II Star Dest
     
  24. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    :D

    They do seem to have the support/escort roles down to ships around this size.

    That is very true, but I've noticed that many SW sources do use a dimension as a measure that implicitly includes everything else mentioned here. Basically that everything gets scaled up from shipboard equipment to crew size and batteries whenever there's a significant skip in a length. But using that alone is a very simplified way of measuring something and assumes that most designs will have similar set-ups in internal schematics.

    As much as I dislike the WEG take on classes, based on the ships seen in the movies and tv shows, it is still a long-standing trope of SW. Although I would have liked a further diversification with smaller cruisers being equivilant to large destroyers in terms of their roles etc.

    That is part of the problem, the book has scales for game-playing purposes and scales for in-universe history and scales for model names. I personally like the "station" class for warships that go beyond two or more kilometers in length or diameter. We know from the millennia-long history that SW space stations are large structures that most civilians would associate with these ships, so that makes sense from a historical and cultural POV.

    Notably this is based on Curtis Saxton's earlier fanworks, where he used analogs to real-life warships and historical designations for the articles.

    His main point was that the Empire, the main focus of the naval articles along with the Calamari, had a plethora of designs seen around the galaxy that went from corvettes to battleships/command ships like the Executor (it being the high-point of such a design-scale) and used their weight (simplified with length of corresponding ship-parts) and the definition of historical warships and their roles, to define them in the Imperial naval hierarchy.

    He even added "Star Monitor" to the list due to Strom's light cruiser's big guns, even though that designation hasn't been used for nearly a century in real-life.

     
  25. Taral-DLOS

    Taral-DLOS Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2009
    On the subject of no ships in SOTG (2007) being classified as Battlecruisers:

    I think they probably created the class, but left it empty, with the purpose of filling it later. I say this because according to Wookieepedia (I don't have my guides with me), the Centurion-class is a Battlecruiser (source=Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide). So it looks like some Battlecruisers were created (at least one, again I'm not at home so I can't look at my other CGs), only none appeared in SOTG.