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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit The Social Safety Net Under the Empire

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Daneira, Oct 8, 2018.

  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I always wondered what the official story was the damage to the senate chamber because I doubt Palpatine flat out admitted he dueled Yoda and tore the room to shreds.
     
  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I think, in Dark Lord The Rise of Darth Vader, he did claim that Yoda had attempted to assassinate him. Maybe his claim was that Yoda did all the "tearing the room to shreds" and all he did was dodge?

    Bail and Mon Mothma reference the damage to the Senate Chamber, at least.
     
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  3. TheRedBlade

    TheRedBlade Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 17, 2007
    Seems like a great way to introduce Vader. Despite what we're so often shown, there is NO WAY that the literate, educated people of the galaxy have no idea who and what the Sith are, and would uncritically accept a self-described Dark Lord of Sith palling around with the Emperor without a good cover story to help grease the skids.
     
  4. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I suspect that most of the galaxy's educated population either acquiesced largely because they knew or simply didn't care. If I recall correctly though neither palpatine or Vader ever publically admitted to being Sith Lords.

    To be sure the moffs knew as well the imperial hands and various other dark side adepts and some other figures-but it was not widespread public knowledge at least for most people-Organa and the founders of the rebellion knew and that was it IIRC. As well of course the Jedi who survived order 66 probably knew or figured it out quickly.
     
  5. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    I think the last HoloNet News article from Insider in 2005 did address the damage to the Senate Chamber and it being repaired. Can't remember what it was, though.
     
  6. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013
    I always thought the thing with this was that the Sith were 1,000 or 2,000 years old. They're simply not part of the frame of reference for the average politician in the prequel-era galaxy, any more than the Knights Templar and Hassassin are for politicians in our world today. They're the stuff of ancient history, legend, pulp fiction, and conspiracy theory. Anyone trying to tell you that Palps was a Sith would simply be laughed out of the room, and even the few people who actually sat and listened to you would simply say, all right, so the Chancellor is part of some weird cosplay/historical appreciation society thing on his off time. What does that have to do with his work, and how can you expect us to count that against him compared to everything he's doing to keep us safe/Make Us Great Again?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
  7. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Indeed-the only beings who would have remembered the Sith would have been long lived species like the Hutts and Gen'dai. Even Yoda was born more than a century after the end of the new Sith wars.

    Even within GFFA timescales a 1000 years is quite a long time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
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  8. Yunzabit

    Yunzabit Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 5, 2015
    This is a really great thread. I would find it so ironic if the Empire had disability, universal healthcare, UBI etc. Even though it’s “evil” it treats its citizens well.

    Would love if a future guidebook could explore that.
     
  9. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The social policies of the galactic republic, the empire and the new republic and its successors. Would be very interested in that
     
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  10. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
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  11. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    May 9, 2000
    I sort of love how a thread that's meant to be on social security in the Empire ends up being about Yoda fighting Palpatine in the Senate Dome. To get back to the question....

    In one of the ANH cutscenes, Biggs indicates that the Empire is... non-capitalist in some way, having "begun nationalising commerce" in the Core, and is eventually going to do something similar on Tatooine, leaving people like Uncle Owen as "tenants" (collectivization of the homesteads?!). Whatever that actually means, the implication is that the Empire is rolling out big state solutions all the way to the Rim.

    The idea that the Empire was taking big private concerns into state ownership has never been really explored, but that scene puts an interesting spin on the idea of a social difference between the Rim and the Core, with folks on Tatooine seeing it as a good thing that the Empire won't be bothered to implement the same sort of social controls out there...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  12. FS26

    FS26 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jul 8, 2018
    I think the Ashoka novel gives us a good idea what ''nationalizing" under the Empire looks like
     
  13. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    Watching through the original Tartakovsky Clone Wars series, in one of the lat episodes when Grievous is chasing the Jedi and Palpatine, they go through the maglev station where the automated voice tells them to pay five credits for a ride.

    It started to make me think: is five credits really high for a train ride? A single fare for the MTA in New York is $2.75. Assuming 1 credit is roughly meant to be 1 USD, that seems pretty steep. Unless maybe it was a train heading from the Senate District to the other side of Coruscant or something... but even that seems a lot for a setting where interstellar travel is common.
     
  14. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    May 9, 2000
    This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently - the fact that spaceships are relatively cheap, while partially game mechanics for the role-playing tie-ins, may also reflect the fact that the technology for them is comparatively readily obtainable, while from another POV, basic things such as mass-transit and speeders can seem reasonably expensive, because they're proportionally relatively expensive...

    The headline figures are that Luke's old X-34 makes at least a meaningful contribution to the 2,000 up-front that Han charges for them to get to Alderaan, and has lost value significantly since the XP-38 was introduced, and that passage to Alderaan with a smuggler can be hiked to 10,000, which is "practically enough" to buy a ship; following this, the pre-reboot canon allowed people to pick up an old freighter for around 20,000 give or take, and probably get a very basic one for rather less (I've always liked the idea that the Hutts recruit smuggling pilots by offering them hire-purchase on the freighters), while a new TIE costs 60,000, a freighter around 100,000 and a snubfighter 150,000... the curve is far less sharp than in real life...

    Of course, we also have to factor in the fact that the value of the credit can also fluctuate quite wildly - the Imperial has collapsed to a third of the value of the NR equivalent by 9 ABY, for example, if I'm remembering the Thrawn trilogy rightly (though whether this reflects inflationary trends that the NR and the POV characters are undervaluing is another question)...

    But there's so much we can do with this - the economics of spice smuggling (seventeen thousand covers Jabba for at least the purchase if not the profit on a dropped cargo), and interesting subtext here on what I was saying recently on Han lacking respect for the Rebels (he charges an outrageous fee because he - correctly - knows that the Alliance can and will cough; but that outrageous fee is still the price of a handfull of second-hand speeders)...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
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  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    5 Empire credits = 3 Republic Credits:


    "I need to know the unofficial exchange rate between Imperial and New Republic currencies," Luke said. "I thought perhaps you could tell me what it is."
    Ferrier studied him with ill-concealed scorn. "This is your problem, Jedi. Leave me out of it."
    There was a low rumble of displeasure from the crowd. Luke didn't reply, but held Ferrier in a level gaze; and after a moment, the other's lip twisted.
    "The last time I did business on the other side, we settled on a five to four Empire/Republic conversion," he growled.
    "Thank you," Luke said. "That seems straightforward enough, then," he continued, turning to the Rodian. "Pay your associate with New Republic currency at a five/four exchange rate and take the Empire scrip back for the next time you work in their territory."
    The Rodian spat something. "That is lie!" the Barabel snarled back.
    "He says he doesn't have enough in New Republic currency," Lando translated. "Knowing Rodians, I'd tend to agree with the Barabel."
    "Perhaps." Luke stared hard into the Rodian's faceted eyes.
    "Perhaps not. But there might be another way." He looked back at Ferrier, raised his eyebrows questioningly.
    The other was sharp, all right. "Don't even think it, Jedi," he warned.
    "Why not?" Luke asked. "You work both sides of the border. You're more likely to be able to spend Imperial scrip than the Barabel could."
    "Suppose I don't want to?" Ferrier countered. "Suppose I don't plan to go back any time soon. Or maybe I don't want to get caught with that much Imperial scrip on me. Fix it yourself, Jedi—I don't owe you any favors."
    The Barabel whirled on him. "You talk respect," he snarled. "He is Jedi. You talk respect."
    A low rumble of agreement rippled through the crowd. "Better listen to him," Lando advised. "I don't think you'd want to get in a fight here, especially not with a Barabel. They've always had a soft spot for Jedi."
    "Yeah—right behind their snouts," Ferrier retorted. But his eyes were flicking around the crowd now, and Luke caught the subtle shift in his sense as he began to realize just how much in the minority his opinion of Luke was.
    Or perhaps he was realizing that winding up in the middle of an official flap might buy him more attention than he really wanted to have. Luke waited, watching the other's sense flicker with uncertainty, waiting for him to change his mind.
    When it happened, it happened quickly. "
    All right, but it'll have to be a five/three exchange," Ferrier insisted. "The five/four was a fluke—no telling if I'll ever get that again."
    "It is cheat," the Barabel declared. "I deserve more from Rodian."
    "Yes, you do," Luke agreed. "But under the circumstances, this is probably the best you're going to get."
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
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  16. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    May 9, 2000
    Thanks for that. :D Interesting, too. Ferrier actually pulls a scam here, if you pay attention closely...

    This sounds as though Ferrier has been actually trading the currencies, with all that that implies about cross-border commerce - an Imperial contact will give him 1.25 in the new Imperial scrip for each NR credit, and he then uses the Imperials to make purchases on the Imperial side of the frontier, while the Imperial contact presumably uses his newly-obtained NR currency to make purchases in the NR via another contact (the alternative is that Ferrier is buying-to-order for the Imperial, or ship-stealing-to-order for Thrawn, but the effect is the same; this is above the going rate) - presumably, there's a premium to this sort of purchase, where the Imperial is needing to purchase things in the NR that aren't as easily obtainable on the Imperial side, while Ferrier is probably just loading up with ordinary goods and the profit is provided in the high exchange rate...

    Anyway, this implies that the practical rate of exchange is lower than 1.25, though for basic goods this may be affected by Imperial price-fixing; when he's forced to make the payment himself, he buys the Imperial scrip at 1.67 for each NR credit, which increases his purchasing power in the Empire, well above the level of the "good" deal he gets from his premium-paying contact, and will then use that to turn a tidy profit on his next purchase of Imperial commodities for resale in the NR...

    As the Barabel says, "It is cheat."

    :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
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  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I never got the impression the empire actually was in the business of nationalizing or "socialist" policies. I suspect many corporations profited quite handsomely under the empire.
     
  18. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    I think it varied. Some profited, others didn't. Core companies and those affiliated with the Imperial ideology like KDY, Sienar, etc definitely profited, but the ex-CIS companies (save for IGBC, which TCW does offer a nice explanation, in that Palpatine had already taken control of it) were nationalized and treated as enemies of the state. Overall the Empire practiced corporatist (not to be confused with pro-corporate as in pro business company) economics, in which it introduced a mixed economy that protected certain workers and certain businesses. If you were outside of the support group though (ie, if you aren't human) then you might get enslaved as cheap labor. The Wookiees are an example of that.
     
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  19. FS26

    FS26 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jul 8, 2018
    I think that Imperial nationalization efforts can be understood as a form of Fascist Corporatism (e.g. Mussolini's Italy), with various corporations operating as part of the Empire, which then uses it's power to promote their interests and force others out of business. For the Lars family, this probably would have meant the Empire forcing moisture farmers on Tatooine to "sell" their homesteads to an Empire-aligned corporation which then "employed" (aka enslaved) the original inhabitants.
    As to what corporations those were, we already know a few Empire-aligned ones, like the Mining Guild, Sienar, Kuat, or TaggeCo, while several Separatist-aligned corporations were directly absorbed by the Empire, such as the Techno Union or the Trade Federation. The Banking Clan already had been placed under Palpatine's control before the Clone Wars ended
     
  20. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013
    This.

    I like the idea of the Clone Wars being, among other things, a war between corporations with different worldviews. The old-school megacorporations, like the Trade Federation and the Commerce Guild, want a galaxy with a weak central government that can't stop them from ruling it like feudal lords, and so they support the Separatists. The more modern ones, like Sienar and KDY, want a more unified galaxy in which they get most of their profits from or in cooperation with a strong central government, and so they support the late-era Republic and the Empire that it transforms into. (Presumably the IBC played both sides and transitioned from former to latter).

    Kind of like Dixie landed gentry vs. Yankee urban industrialists in the nineteenth century United States.
     
  21. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Indeed-and that can tie into the discussion about palpatine wanting to loosen or remove regulations-companies don't necessarily want no regulations-they'd rather be the ones writing them:

    I'd also suspect it was a matter of differing corporate personnel and cultures-the pro imperial corporations had connections and ties to the state and benefited from the state's increasing centralization and militarization.

    While the CIS based corporations profited most from a weak republic with no standing army and a free hand to operate wherever they saw fit.
     
  22. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2016
    In the original Marvel comics, the Lars farm gets bought up at one point by TaggeCo, certainly Empire-aligned.
     
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  23. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    Since this seems to be the general economics thread....

    Does anyone know of a good article online that gives a general overview of in-game transactions and markets in Galaxies and TOR? Especially the sort of player-made products and customization market that existed in the former?
     
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  24. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
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  25. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I don't think anyone could get a pro capitalist or at least pro corporation sentiment from the PT alone.

    It's important to remember all the CIS conglomerates are well corporations and their droid armies exist to protect their investments.