ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Ridley wasn't happy with her performance either.

Daisy Ridley: “Well I, like Mark [Hamill], had some reservations about the [Star Wars: The Last Jedi] script. I thought, ‘Where is John [Boyega]? He’s away from me, and I don’t want to be away from him.’ (audience laughter)” “Getting into something like this is pretty overwhelming, and John was my guy the whole way through filming and press stuff [on The Force Awakens], and it was scary. It was really scary thinking about the next chapter with us apart. And I expressed that to [writer/director] Rian [Johnson].” “Luckily we had a couple weeks to rehearse and we talked everything through. And, obviously, it’s an ongoing conversation as we went. But I found it quite difficult, I remember saying to Rian I felt much more neurotic this time.” “There were times where I thought [performing], ‘I don’t think I’ve done the right thing, but Rian, if you’re happy, I’m happy.’ Because I think it’s that thing of being pushed and going somewhere where you can’t quite figure it out, and [Rey’s] figuring it out at the same time. But you do sort of think, I don’t know if I’m doing this justice.” (January 7, 2018)

She even repeats Hamill's line, "If you're happy, Rian, I'm happy." I wonder if it was some kind of joke the cast had.

 

If it was, I like "faster. and more intense" better. It might not have yielded better performances but vastly better movies.

It would be like if the old Legends EU jumped from good Jacen (and at least there were several novels that portrayed him as a good, heroic person and what made him tick which is more than we got for Kylo) right to the novel where his twin sister has to kill him for having fallen to the darkside. Readers would have gone "what the hell?"

Why is this considered unimportant in the ST? I read so many times how the movies gave us everything we need and whoever needs more details can wait for novels and comics - but again, not needed at all.

So noone needs to know how and why the new villain destroyed everything that was accomplished at the end of ROTJ? Noone needs to know if "Ben Solo" was even remotely a good person before his fall? Noone needs to know his motivation (I mean, okay, he doesn`t seem to know it either so why would the audience)?

The crucial backstory that this entire new trilogy hinges on was relegated to some pseudo-intellectual gimmick of Rashomon style flashbacks that everyone can read into whatever they want. And that is supposed to be enough to excuse the new horror show that is TJFKALS (the Jedi formerly known as Luke Skywalker).

Just being an old broken quitter is not a backstory and this measly "the night" backstory doesn`t justify him to me. I know there is this one chapter in one book but I found this specific chapter stupid because I can`t stand philosophies like the Le`wel.

Equally, I can`t even with this thought process of "I`m not gonna do anything because I might make it worse so hopefully someone else better comes along" and even call that a sacrifice. To me that is not only selfish and cowardly thinking but it is also beyond stupid. So it doesn`t help if I`m supposed to think Luke was wrong here, he was wrong in that stupid, unacceptable manner that doesn`t make a good enough reason for me to sympathize with someone despite them being wrong.

 

Yeah - how to convey it. "That's the thing of (me) being pushed and going somewhere where (I) can’t quite figure it out (how to perform this), and [Rey’s] figuring it out at the same time."

 

Didn't Daisy say that when she first read the script for TLJ, that she went to Rian and said that they "needed to talk about it" or something?

 

Daisy Ridley: “Yeah [there were some big surprises even for me when I read the script]. I went to Rian’s office and I was like, ‘we need to have a talk about what’s happening here’.” (ABC Nightline – April 15, 2017)

 

Yep, that's the one.

 

Yes, that's a good way to sum it up.

 

Not to derail, but I just wanted to say that over the Thanksgiving weekend our local TV station had a Toy Drive for those kids that are less fortunate during the X-mas holiday. You had to donate a minimum of one unopened toy...

...I donated my entire unopened SW figures collection from TPM, AOTC, ROTS, and some old Powers of the Force ones - including Black Series collectibles from TFA. About 75 altogether. I hope they really go to the kids and not some heartless geek on the staff that sees them for what they are, but I digress.

I've never felt better about SW then as I did on Saturday dropping those off. Talk about catharsis.

I kept my Darth Vader POTF and Darth Maul (cloaked from TPM) ones though.

I think I'm ready to move on.

 

IMO, the issue is that TPTB wanted to reboot the OT after paying for Star Wars and were talked out of that somewhat and this soft reboot of the OT becomes the end result.

It’s very clearly aimed more at casual fans than many of us or indeed anyone who has ever read any legends material at all.

Consider the Disney reboots recently:

Jungle Book
Beauty and the Beast
Cinderella
Lion King
Aladdin
Pete’s Dragon
Dumbo
Mulan

They clearly laid out a roadmap long ago to reintroduce these famous story beats to new generations who refuse to watch old films for whatever reason and because of the amount of parents who take their kids and bring in 3-4 ticket sales per house that go.

All the signs are there that they wanted to do the same for Star Wars but knew they’d get killed for it so at the very peak of the YA movie craze when tween girls were falling hard for fantasy and sci-fi en masse a choice was likely made to reach out to the 2016-2019 equivalent of tween girls hoping to bring them to Star Wars and the hopes that they’d become fans for life.

The result is the ST. A mix of what TPTB see and want reinterpreted from the OT combining with their vision of a YA hero who finds herself mixed up with the wrong guy.

Along the way, and this was strongly suggested by Rian Johnson’s peers on Twitter, guys like Johnson and JJ and Kasdan all did what they could to make it feel like a new experience for old fans while still sticking to the overall mandate of an OT soft reboot.

The Story group’s role then likely became to try and flesh out the backstory of this OT soft reboot that the original had via an entire PT and decades of books but our fandom wants those answers now and they don’t have them ready for us.

It seems like they’ve gambled on new fan outreach for longevity in the hopes that the anthology films and TV shows will be enough for the hard core fans to remain happy. It looks like they underestimated hardcore fandom’s online presence and commitment to bashing their choices though. Here we are 11 months later after all.

Snoke wasn’t explained in part because Snoke was only there because an Emperor before him was there that also wasn’t explained tremendously until later and they obviously felt that they could go back and pull off that same trick again. Perhaps they have with some new fans but not many of you.

 

11 months is NOTHING compared to 20 years of prequel bashing. In this thread's last two pages alone people are still complaining about Hayden in the PT.

 

The OT was lightning in a bottle. I find it hard to believe that "new" fans have not been exposed to SW in some way, shape, or form, and this ST will in all probability not solidify them as on the way to becoming "hardcore". They will most certainly turn to the next available distraction and leave the ST in the dust.

And there are plenty of things SW to keep 'em distracted on the way.

The trouble really is: People are angry and on the defensive about almost every facet of life. They are starting to recognize snow jobs when they see them instead of just keepin' on keepin' on.

The ivory tower residents of multi-media conglomerates don't care about fandom, creativity, reaching out, et. al.

They care about money. They took a gamble, and in all likelihood it is appearing they lost. They will course correct and make up for it in long term dollars. To view it any other way is silly imo.

Is that cynical? You bet. Is it reality? Most assuredly.

 

The fact that the defense for Snoke's lack of explanation being "well they didn't explain Sheev's backstory in the OT" shows how misplaced the "logic" is. There's this thing called CONTEXT, and 1983 is NOT 2017. Different time different rules. What you could get away with back then you won't necessarily be able to now.

There were reasons why you could get away with not explaining Sheev's past that don't exist anymore, just like there are reasons for Snoke NEEDING more explanation well that didn't exist back then. Not to mention that we DID at least get more insight into Sheev's motives in the OT than we got for Snoke here.

Again on the one hand saying "you cannot rely on OT nostalgia, and you're wrong for not liking these films if you do" but then on the other going "well it's totally ok to do it now since they did it in the OT," is trying to have your cake and eat to and makes you look really disingenuous.

 

There aren't enough likes I can give for this.

 

What other options do you have if you're supporting the ST - especially after TLJ?

 

Indeed. This isn't Episode 1. It is meant to be Chapter 7 and 8 in an ongoing continuing saga/story. The entire premise of a "sequel" is to continue the story. As you say context is important. So who Snoke is, the First Order, Rey, New Republic, where the Jedi are, what the motivations and backstory/direction are is absolutely essential to storytelling. And if I'm not mistaken in the OT there is clear exposition of the galactic status quo both by Obi Wan to Luke, and also the Imperial Conference table. The titles of people make it clear that there is a Galactic Empire. The PT also has exposition of the status quo, and it clearly flows into the OT without massive question marks about where we are etc. If you take the end of ROTJ, and the context of the entire saga, and the fact that Episodes 7 and 8 are meant to continue on from Endor, there isn't any backstory or exposition to make any sense of this. I also see your point about these "sequels" leeching off the former films to promote random new characters to the point where they are trying to eat their cake, have it too and claim it is better cake than ever before. It does have the feeling of the Emperor without any clothes analogy as for the sequels and their reception.

Thunderous applause is due for this indeed. I also don't quite understand the apparent reason for not explaining anything being that Episode IV didn't. Firstly it did, on at least two occasions. And being the first film ever of this franchise, it's very different context. Secondly, every film since has fit into that story saga arc with each flowing into each other and making total sense. And thirdly if these are meant to be "sequels" then by definition they are meant to continue that same storyline within a saga. This is Chapter 7 and Chapter 8, yet it feels rather jarringly random and not part of the same book. Each Episode is meant to flow into the next and from the former.

 

Maybe they should have like, upon acquiring Lucasfilm, hired a distinguished novel author to write the entire story of the ST in a novel and then never published it. Then hired scriptwriters to adapt that unpublished novel into the movies. That's what everybody seems to do nowadays. But it seems like the egos of everyone involved from the IP stakeholders and management to the scriptwriters and directors couldn't put up with that even if it would have or could have made for a more coherent set of movies.

 

Or they should have, you know, HAD AN ACTUAL PLAN!! Instead of letting the directors just, wing it and do what they want with each film, at least have a general outline of where the story is going to go and what the explanations and arcs will be. You don't need to plan out every single little detail beforehand of course, but they didn't have ANY set story it would seem.

 

Call me crazy, but couldn't they have gone with George Lucas' story treatments? I'd consider his story pretty distinguished. I mean did someone need to remind the storyboard that he wrote that story set in space. You know that franchise called Star Wars.

I mean I can't understand the logic. The creator of the franchise tells you what happens next. Everything mapped out. One story. Continuity, deep meaning. That's option 1. That is the option I would choose personally.
Option 2 is to use that as a basis for what happens next, hire someone like Jonathan Nolan (Dark Knight Trilogy) to base a story on George Lucas' scripts (Adapt it). Certainly another option, using GL as a creative consultant and executive over the storyline.
Option 3, failing to do either of these pretty decent options, is to hire an experienced series writer who understands the entirety of Episodes 1 to 6 and Maps out 3 episodes. Then adhere to this plan.
And then there's option 4. You throw out Lucas' ideas. Instead of doing any of the 3 options above, you totally ditch the idea of mapping out a story. And forget about continuity and instead do a relay race of films, that don't continue the story. Use the OT characters to promote new random characters. Create confusion about context, the continuing storyline and base things on coincidences, pure action, and contradict or make irrelevant the former 6 films. So you can not continue the story, but you'll still call them sequels. And then you expect people to just love your new characters and worship them.

Option 4 is what they did. I personally would have gone with Option 1 or 2.

I felt like the actual sequels would have been something special. And a mapped out story that respects continuity would have made more sense. And I also feel like that would have made much much much more money than the outcome that has resulted. And I will say that those films would have been very much more diverse in their galactic feel and range of cast (to play Jedi, various factions etc) than what we got. Ultimately there would have been the very essence of what is Star Wars. And that is Story. That is the missing ingredient.

Exactly. The sad thing is they had a plan given to them by Lucas.

They threw it out. As if this wasn't bad enough, they then didn't plan anything at all? I mean is this how they treat a franchise and saga that they supposedly care about?

I can just imagine Palpatine saying, "It's ironic really. They would have made far more money by doing the actual sequels," or "You will pay for your lack of vision!"

I mean that's the crux of the problem. There wasn't a plan. It is like the Emperor without Clothes story where it's all an illusion. I mean if you have time, money, teams of people involved, it is unbelievable that somewhere along the line, someone didn't kinda say, "Wait, are we seriously doing this?"

 

Hidalgo bragged about Lucasfilm not doing test screenings so that the directors/writers would be able to make 'personal' films instead of worrying about the audience's response.

Pablo Hidalgo: "There’s reasons these movies, unlike most big ones, are never tested. More weight is put on what the filmmakers are trying to say than what an audience may want to hear. That’s a George lesson.” (January 6, 2018)

And that is the wrong lesson.

And it hasn't stopped them from getting rid of filmmakers either in the past.

 

This would have been the most ridiculous buisness model proposition I could think of. At this point, people in the entertainment industry should know how YA works, for whom and why. Yes, you can package it in new settings but you have to keep a specific formula. A formula that only has a specific outreach and shelf life. The idea of keeping a blockbuster franchise going on that formula is a non-starter. Ergo, making "fans for life" out of that would also be a silly non-starter.

I`m not saying that wasn`t the idea but if so, you could have had a better outcome by having someone throw darts, blindfolded, at a board with idea notes. At least in that case, you have a statistical chance of hitting a winner.

I think there is this belief that SW as a brand is invincible. That they can do whatever they want and every movie will magically make money. I mean, the PT got scorned left and right but the movies made good money, not great money but good money.

Now I think Solo deflated that balloon. Whatever the reason was for how it did - I personally don`t think TLJ`s response was the end all/be all of Solo `s doom but a factor nonetheless - but it shows that a movie that flies under the SW banner can be a box office flop.

 

In the OT, the audience doesn't need to know more about The Emperor. All they need to know is he's Darth Vader's master and the ruler of the Empire. In ANH & TESB the audience has learned the Empire and Darth Vader are evil by their actions. The Emperor being Vader's master and the ruler of the Empire tells the audience all they need to know; he is a bad guy and a threat to our heroes.

TFA telling the audience Snoke is this big bad because it says so doesn't work. TFA is a sequel to a movie where our heroes had a happy ending because they killed all of the bad guys. So, who is this Snoke character that has come out of nowhere? What is his goal? These are essential questions when writing a sequel.

Imagine if Hunger Games 5 came out and there was suddenly this new evil President of the 12 districts. The audience would be going, "Hey, wait a minute. I thought Katniss killed all of the bad guys. The ending of the last movie showed peace in the districts." The new movie would have to tell the audience how and why this new villain is in charge of the districts. It's the same thing with Snoke.

 

They were working with George then there was some shift - the original announcement was “movie in 2015” then Ardnt said he couldn’t crack the script without another 18 months’ work and then here comes JJ and Larry to write a script in six weeks so the movie comes out “on time” instead of delayed.

Of course they then got delayed because they tried to kill Ford with a hydraulic door...

But seriously- this huge, highly anticipated relaunch of Star Wars and they just decide eh, soft reboot and let JJ write a script with the amount of lead time you’d give your average sitcom script. Just cobble something together out of old ideas and yell about practical effects, and the masses will eat it up. Iger and Kennedy signed off on Han’s death and Luke’s, on paying for that cast and never reuniting them and sold it hard. I hope it’s finally maybe dawning on them that the way they’ve gone was a bad idea.

 

Also making Snoke seem like he's more powerful than Vader and Sheev, making him seem so ancient, and him knowing things that he really shouldn't know, just raises even more questions.

 

What they underestimated, was the high expectations that any viewer has from an established franchise such as Star Wars. Sugarcoating a movie that is the result of less than perfect devotion and planning, will result in mixed reception from the fans.

It is quite a stretch to say that only the hardcore fandom is responsible for the backlash against TLJ. I know about 20-30 people that are into Star Wars, with the degree of investment ranging of course. Out of those 20-30 people I have not heard anyone praising the movie. A few (maybe 3?) told me they liked it, most thought it was just ok but had problems, and many also said that it was really bad. Everyone said that they liked the first 6 movies better. There is a reason for that.

The Snoke situation is perhaps objectively (as much as that is possible) the worst problem of the film. While I can understand how ονε would like Rey's evolution, or what this movie is trying to communicate, or even Luke's story arc (though I definitely don't agree), the situation with Snoke is that he is an entity that could be completely omitted. He has no purpose really in the ST, and that's all because of how his presence and existence and back story were treated. His presence is Sidious 2.0, his existence is just assumed in TFA because he just happens to be there, and his back story is non-existent. How did this even pass ANY test prior to final editing and release?