ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

I would hardly call them mistakes. I think that up to a certain point, she knows that her video will attract likes and a conversation, and that's what she is aiming for, while at the same time expressing her honest opinion. I really don't think we should live in a day and age where expressing your opinion should be considered a mistake, no matter how loud and obnoxious it is. I would never personally upload a video even remotely close to that, and I disagree with many of the things she is saying, but I would hate for people to tell that person that her actions were a mistake.

Apologies for the off topic, we should indeed focus on the conversation that is happening here, instead of the rant of a random star wars girl (Rey?) on youtube.

 

I always saw Leia as higher ranking than Han, Luke, Lando, etc.. If a King were to go into battle with his generals, the King is in command. From her first scene in the very first movie of the franchise Leia is fighting and rebelling. And this is long before we see Luke or Han. I also assumed when she took on the rank General, she was shedding a higher office in order to get closer to her troops. Which imo was completely unnecessary because she's definitely BTDT from day one.

 

While Disney, like all studios, had clunkers and flops, in their resume, those movies aren`t usually followed by months and months and months of clickbait articles that strawman criticism and explaining why you absolutely HAVE to love it for basically "breaking with conventions". Even if someone`s criticism literally IS that they don`t like movies that break with convention.

TLJ really was the only one who got that over the top defense. The Alice sequel and a Wrinkle in Time flopping got treated more or less, like every studio treats their failures, shrug and move on.

The only other case I can really think of was Sonny and Ghostbusters 2016. And there I`m unsure of how aware for example the actors are. Melissa McCarthy just recently said she was still baffled what the big problem with female ghostbusters was. Now is she a) not aware that a big criticim for the movie - after people had seen it - is that they found the improv comedy overdone and unfunny? or b) does she want to ignore this because it is a criticism specifically calling out her work as a comedian and actress. Because that kind of criticism is not so easy to be strawmanned away.

Same with TLJ. "People just hate Rey for not being a Ray" is carte blanche for ignoring any and all kind of valid criticims. Meanwhile "you should love movies that break conventions and are destructionist because we all need that in our life" is just entitled and selfidh. A) don`t tell me what "we" need and b) don`t tell me what I should or shouldn`t love. Just because those attitudes are packed into endless strings of faux-intellectual meta doesn`t mean you can`t see that the author really wants to force their opinion on you in a super-entitled way.

While I can`t understand at all why someone likes TLJ in the same way like I can`t understand liking the taste of buttermilk - both are ghastly - I can of course accept that people simply do. I enjoy some food (and movies) that I know not everyone likes either.

 

Yes. I honestly cannot remember a string of articles and critiques and Twitter threads defending TLJ for any other movie. Is it Batman v Superman that everyone hates? (I am not up on DC). Is there anything like this for that movie? Even Ghostbusters 2016, I don't recall this level of defense - and really, I gave up halfway in, wow was that a snooze. (Although to be fair, the original is not a great movie, it's a fast, funny movie that relies on Bill Murray and a few set pieces everyone remembers).

There's my absolute favorite string of thinkpieces - "Star Wars needed to be burned to the ground." Really. Why? Did it shoot your dog? Did it elect a president you didn't like? Why does Star Wars, out of every other franchise, need to be burned to the ground and why is it a "good thing"? That one is particularly maddening. Why is it so great that a franchise people loved for 40 years be destroyed? (I will remember Mark Hamill at the Oscars "Kill Luke, that's what everyone wanted to see")

I also love "it's been X months, why are you still complaining about the film?" I don't know, it's been X months, why are you writing yet another clickbait article about how it's the best film ever and I'm an uncultured, misogynist, racist barbarian for not bowing down to its greatness, answer me that.

Another high point was an article on HuffPo that went on about how it was great that Poe vs. Holdo was about "toxic white male masculinity" to which several people pointed out that Oscar Isaac is Latino.

Or could I bring up the week of articles including one notorious one in Vanity Fair about how wonderful Reylo was?

Then the subset of articles about the movie in general, written by male middle aged writers, every one written to a pattern - I could write them myself. Film Critic Hulk's magnum opus was just the culmination of the whole trend but I saw endless Twitter streams and clickbait articles that were the same argument over and over - Rose is this, Poe vs Holdo is toxic masculinity, if you don't like the characters' arcs you're against representation and not progressive, and, of course, Luke's arc is perfect and right and if you don't get it, you wanted Super Luke from the EU and shut up, this is better. I literally had some joker on Twitter when I said that Leia and Padme are great characters and only talking about Rey devalues that tell me that now is better. Well, no, it's not rando Twitter dude (and I'm sure you are one), but thanks for that knowledge.

 

Sorry you lost me at "Ghostbusters is not a great movie".

 

@DarthFixxxer - the mistakes I was referring to weren’t her opinions. I don’t opinion shame. It was her using hate against a real person over fiction for clicks, and I don’t know, she looks about 18 or 19 to me. It’s a train wreck, one I hope someday she’ll look back on and feel shame over. But, a young person like that getting OTT on YouTube over SW just isn’t something we need to pile on her over. The hate is nasty and yes it’s a mistake, which I pointed out from get go without getting personal toward her back, and she’ll either figure it out or she won’t.

And I agree we can move on and discuss what’s happening here, such as by not making comments about a real person and how awful she is and then trying to end the conversation on that note.

 

I think reason behind the prevalence of constant articles either defending or criticizing TLJ compared to other movies should be readily apparent: Star Wars is a massive franchise that has permeated our culture. Nobody gives two juicy toots about the Alice sequel or The Wrinkle in Time compared to Star Wars, so those movies are going to get a much smaller response either positive or negative. You add in the effect the internet has where everything has to be an extreme dichotomy and every two-bit writer now has a topic for easy clicks. Add in that Star Wars is still ongoing which means the topic continually relevant and can be replayed from a new perspective. We saw it with Solo where TLJ had to be brought in with every article on its box office and it'll happen with the new shows and IX, etc.

 

One thing is for damn sure...

TLJ was not good enough. Money-wise it did very well. But no matter how much someone wants to defend the film (and there are reasonable defenses), no one can argue that it was a rousing success. In fact, I think it's blatantly clear at this point that TLJ was neither successful in terms of acquiring new, younger SW fans into the fold, nor was it successful in delighting the majority of older fans of the OT. Yes, of course, some OT fans, as evidenced here, did like it, and in some ways I envy those people. But overall, based on my own experiences and observations, this movie has done nothing but hurt the franchise. I work with students elementary through high school, and I'm sorry, but most of them just don't care about the ST. Ask them about Infinity Wars and they'll light up. There is no comparison.

 

Good movies don't need media defense forces and articles or writer/director explain-a-thons. Let alone this still going on a year later.

 

I love this new trend of movie studios, actors, writers, directors defending and explaining their work on social media. I love how the director of Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom continues to shift blame onto the fans for making a bad movie. Oh wait, he doesn't do that. It's only the people involved with making TLJ.

 

I love the show Lost but will be the first to admit it went off the rails the last few seasons. But for me to call someone out for not liking/getting it would be ridiculously condescending.

 

You guys just haven't been shamed enough into grudgingly loving it and accepting it for the masterpiece it was intended to be.

 

It wasn't just any newspaper. It was the Los Angeles Times.

 

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@Jedha I just saw that ST episode a few weeks ago. The one with all the kids running around that town.

 

What's the box of shame from, @Jedha ? Because I'm probably the only one who remembers the show Profit with Adrian Pasdar as a villain you root for and that's exactly what I'm thinking of.

 

I really despise Luke's line "I will not be the last Jedi" in the context it was given. Did Yoda even tell him eventually that she stole the sacred Jedi texts?

That line towards Kylo would have worked quite well if Luke knew that he would survive this encounter and train Rey in becoming a Jedi.

 

Despicable Me.

 

Very well said!

Brilliantly put! That's the trouble. Nothing is explained on screen unlike the other 6 episodes in the saga!

Sequels (in name only) after watching Star Wars Episodes 1 to 6: I...I don't believe it
Yoda: That...is why you fail.

Agreed. The trouble is there is no backstory, no story in the present and no planned out story for future events. They threw out Lucas' scripts for a ruse instead. Nothing makes sense. No backstory, no plot, no Skywalker saga, no tying this together with an overarching story about the Force (Whills), overarching villain (Plageuis), galactic status quo (Republic > Empire > chaos > New Republic). Instead they gave us TFA and TLJ. To quote Obi Wan from AOTC - "Good job."

" We're going to ditch George Lucas' ideas and his original sequels. Instead, get this, you're going to love this...we're going to tell you the story of random Rey with no backstory, no plot. Nothing will make sense...:


After seeing the sequels:


Watching the so called sequels is like:

 

I thought Kasdan had said the "they're back together again right" thing - so it was Arndt who split them up. Or whoever "we" is - so great, I'll blame him for breaking up Han and Leia then. I'll add him to the list.

But really....WHY? Why do you not want everyone to start up all together? What the hell kind of idea is that? Can anyone explain to me why this is a great idea? Because if I was in charge, I'd've thrown it right back in his face.

 

I don't mind them starting off apart...it's the estrangement that's baffling. I mean - I have family all over the country that I haven't seen in over 10 - 15 years, but we're not estranged.

I think the bigger question is what kind of demographic were they aiming for with these kinds of story choices? And did it hit the mark?

Seems kind of a depressing cynical viewpoint to send to the "12 year old & under" crowd I'm constantly told these films are for.

 

It didn’t make a lot of sense to me either:

The film is called TLJ and right the end, the dude who you think IS the last Jedi says that he isn’t!!!

Granted I have only seen TLJ 1 3/4 times (I got bored), so I may have missed some intricate fact, that makes this line work. But the film is so empty of substance I doubt it!


I love my XP-38.

 

This is where I’m at. I was fine with TFA at first because they kept saying Han and Leia were still married, just sort of needing space because of the trauma of Kylo (and potentially additional mystery box trauma). Meanwhile, Luke was only in hiding since the massacre. From TFA, I assumed that the three remained very close until that event, and the events of the ST would reunite them, therefore it would all be temporary... okay, at least with Luke and Leia. Han and Leia at least got to reaffirm their undying love before Han died.

But with almost every bit of new canon, they made it worse. Han and Leia were basically separated before Kylo turned evil. Han wasn’t that devoted of a family man, he was always off racing. Leia was too focused on her career. Luke wandered off shortly after RotJ and barely saw Leia and Han. Basically, LF figures that making our beloved OT3 apathetic to each other was necessary for the story? It’s so bad that it is kind of baffling as to how they came up with that as a good idea.

 

Not to mention...WHO'S GONNA TRAIN HER!?

Man oh man does IX have it's work cut out for it!

 

And TLJ made this even worse by keeping the new heroes who all had budding friendships totally separated, because apparently they were too alike and didn’t have enough conflict to interest the writer. Its basically assuming the only reason we’re watching this is to see friends and family argue at the Thanksgiving dinner table, and theres no reason to watch them if they’re not fighting each other.