ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

I think it's great if DR is happy with the story and Rey. I think it would be terrible if she wasn't happy with the direction her character takes. I also think that when actors are able to provide feedback and suggestions about their characters it's generally a good thing because the actor is the keeper of the character (through embodying it) in a way that no one else is.

I disagree with all of the following stories being pitched forth (as in I do not believe these stories are true):

1. The story that RJ is the big villain of the ST who ruined and destroyed everything through his complete off-the-wall sick Reylo fest or whatever, that he went way off course, and now JJA will fix it. For one, LF went with RJ's story; they didn't fire him like they fired CT over creative differences. JJA was executive producer of TLJ and said he wished he'd wrote it. And I think there has probably always been some kind of concept (bare bones) underlying the connection between Rey and Kylo, which has been part of the story from the beginning (started in part by JJA). Not to mention how it is RJ who brought them together AND pulled them apart.

2. The story that JJA (now the treacherous villain in the tale) was going to do romantic Reylo and DR was able to dissuade him, so now the script is Reylo-free.

3. The idea that DR's career will be in jeopardy if the story doesn't appeal to X or Y fan camp.

 

JJ didn't say he wish he wrote TLJ. That is what someone else said he said and when JJ was asked about it he denied it. I personally think it says a lot that he felt the need to correct it at all.

 

Abrams rebutted Grunberg's interpretation of what he said.* He also said recently Rian Johnson took the story in a different direction because he wrote TLJ before they ever met.** He said he differences of opinion with Kathleen Kennedy all the time while Rian Johnson said Kennedy let him live in an isolated bubble to write his story to the Wall Street Journal.

*J. J. Abrams: “Here’s the thing about Greg [Grunberg]. You put a microphone in front of him, you never know what you’re going to get. I love my friend Greg. He’s my best friend since Kindergarten. I think that my enthusiasm for [Episode] VIII is enormous. I think he also might have invented a couple of the quotes that he gave (‘[J. J. Abrams] read [the script for Episode VIII] and said something he never, ever says, [which was that it was] so good [that he wished he had written it]. He may have said something one time on Lost, with Damon [Lindelof], but I never hear him express regret like that.’) but I am very much excited for, and very jealous of anyone, especially Rian [Johnson], who gets to work so closely with this extraordinary cast and crew. Truly an amazing group. In that regard, for sure, but honestly, I’m also relieved to have gotten the chance to do a Star Wars movie.” (January 13, 2016)
**J. J. Abrams: "I had some gut instincts about where the story would have gone. But without getting in the weeds on episode eight, that was a story that Rian [Johnson] wrote and was telling based on VII before we met. So he was taking the thing in another direction. So we also had to respond to Episode VIII. So our movie was not just following what we had started, it was following what we had started and then had been advanced by someone else. So there was that, and, finally, it was resolving nine movies. While there are some threads of larger ideas and some big picture things that had been conceived decades ago and a lot of ideas that Lawrence Kasdan and I had when we were doing Episode VII, the lack of absolute inevitability, the lack of a complete structure for this thing, given the way it was being run was an enormous challenge." (April 9, 2019)

Kasdan also said that VIII and IX would be taking the story in another direction than what he worked on.***

***Lawrence Kasdan: "Each director defines the movie and Rian Johnson who will do the next episode will change it enormously.” (December 21, 2015)
Lawrence Kasdan: “[J .J. Abrams and I have] not really [sketched out the next episodes]. [The Force Awakens] sets up a lot of stuff. There’s a lot of people to deal with. And Rian took on that job and he’s going to change it, because he’s Rian. And I’m sure Colin [Trevorrow] will change what Rian does…. These movies will all be so different. Rian Johnson is a friend of mine — he’s going to make some weird thing. If you’ve seen Rian’s work, you know it’s not going be like anything that’s ever been in Star Wars.” “We talked about [the ending of the new trilogy] — and there’s a certain thing that people who are involved with it feel should happen. There’s a kind of movement that happens. But it’s not in your control. It’s going to veer off with Rian, and it’s going to veer off another way with Colin.” (December 22, 2015)

Daisy Ridley also said that plans changed.****

****Daisy Ridley: “Yeah [I was going with my first impulses when auditioning for Star Wars]. I mean, of course things were said in the moment, but it wasn’t like a deep [conversation] about the character’s journey, or what was going to happen [in the film], or who the relationships were with. When I was auditioning, the sides weren’t even real—the characters on each side weren’t real—so I had no idea. And then obviously, with Rian [Johnson] doing the [Star Wars: The Last Jedi], it becomes a changing story, because different people have different opinions as to what the story is and what the trajectory is.” (October 31, 2017)
Daisy Ridley: “[Was Rey’s backstory completed before the release of Star Wars: The Force Awakens?] Here’s what I think I know. J. J. wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote TLJ entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and J. J. Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.” (March 1, 2018)

And then Abrams finally met with Johnson when Johnson was doing a rewrite and Abrams then had to tweak VII to take out Luke lifting the rocks with his Force powers among other tweaks. Carrie Fisher said she found out late in the process that she was going to be a General for instance and her Princess hair braids were CGI'ed out of TFA.

 

But did he feel the need to "correct" it? I don't see evidence of that. TLJ, as the middle chapter, can explore the possible directions the story could take. And it did. Now some folks think they see a definite, defined path emerging from TLJ. I certainly do. But they (and I) may be wrong. I suspect that a lot of folks who think JJ is "correcting" TLJ are the same folks that think RJ ignored TFA. I don't happen to think that. I think RJ was exploring possibilities. Likewise, I think JJ will decide the outcome of those possibilities. That does not mean he is "correcting" anything.

 

Yeah, it's weird to see people blaming RJ as the guy who went off the rails as if he didn't work WITH Lucasfilm, the people who are actually planning the story of the ST. We know it was Kasdan who created the connection and JJ didn't say anything then and he knows VIII already happened so he can't ignore what happened in it (Rey no longer sees Kylo as a monster). We don't know if romantic Reylo is the "love story" that he mentioned in the 2013 interview. I believe they will team up again against Sidious, I believe their connection is spiritual (dark and the light). I believe Kylo will redeem himself by acknowledging both the light and darkside inside him: he won't pretend Kylo Ren is no more (think about Yoda's hubris in TCW). I would like to see an underwater battle or Kylo vs Rey above the sea on Endor/Yavin. I believe Sidious and not Snoke was the one influencing Kylo through Vader's helmet (Momin-style). We might get a glimpse of the WBW, or another version of it. I believe we'll see a flashback/vision truly exploring Kylo Ren's motivations. My personal preference is for Rey to remain single by choice but I could see her ending up with Finn, Poe or Kylo (no sign of her being bisexual so far).

 

Someone mentioned something about his scar being moved back. Nah, it's still in the same place as in TLJ, maybe even less visible?

 

There were other indicators JJA liked TLJ too though (I didn't know he had denied saying he thought it was so great he wished he was directing it or wrote it).

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-rian-johnson-jj-abrams-differences/

Anyway, this article is relevant to the debate. When I read it I see that RJ and JJA didn't have the same ideas about everything for TLJ, but the interpretation that JJA thinks RJ went the wrong way and now is "fixing it" is something people have to supply themselves. It implies JJA thought there was something to fix or that TLJ is a problem. It is something to fix and a problem for many fans, but that doesn't mean JJA views it the same way.

Oh and regarding the scar - I do not believe JJA Is like "it is our goal to make Kylo Ren less attractive so we're moving his scar over - it will show those dreadful fangirls that he is ugly now. They need to learn about bad men, and it wasn't enough when Anakin became ugly--clearly the lesson hasn't been learned!" I think that JJA could certainly make him ugly. Like he could lose the lower half of his jaw like Malak in KOTOR and that could be why the helmet is back. It could be he actually needs it. The scar, however, is inconsequential in this regard.

 

If we go from the assumption that Rian did something different from what JJ would have done had he directed VIII (and I personally think this assumption IS correct), it doesn't necessarily mean that:

a) he is mad about it (maybe he's just not that invested in a particular vision and was open to - or even welcomed - other ideas)
b) he's gonna course correct (even if he IS mad, perhaps he's professional enough to put that aside and follow what was established in TLJ)

An example: if he set up Rey and Finn to become romantically involved and the rumours are true about Finn and Rose being a couple.

That goes for any plot point, not just Reylo (or lack thereof)

 

I think that it needs to be fixed is self evident from the fact that RJ openly mocked his source material in multiple respects and outright dropped character beats that were touched on In it. Maybe it didn't bother JJ, but I think it's unprofessional and reflects poorly on LF as a whole.

 

I think JJ said re TLJ, "It's so good, I wish I were making it."

 

No. He denied saything that after his friend said he did. See above. This is what JJ explicitly corrected the record on.

 

I look at this subject this way. How do we really know JJ is fixing anything in TROS until we see the movie and can analyze whet was done? Say having Luke a bigger role in TROS is seen as fixing him from TLJ but not if he is doing something totally unrelated that was planned all along? There are many things his character can do that wont fix anything from the past at all yet public perception can dictate that when desired.

 

There's also just so many ways to fix something. I think storywise Luke's role in TLJ worked very well. It's not something to fix. But on the fan end, many are unhappy with the Luke story. So what is the "fix"? Luke took a big moment at the end of TLJ so I don't think it would be a fix to give him another big moment that overrides Rey as the protagonist (I can understand the TLJ moment - and alone I think it will work, but if it happens again I think that is too much Luke in main hero role). I was very happy when the teaser started out with "this is your fight." It's not Luke's fight, thank goodness!

 

I liked very mutch all of TLJ. Luke, Rey and Kylo's arc the most. I think jj will not have Luke more then this force ghost who helps her along the way in same way as Obi wan did for Luke. I think Rey will prove to the galaxy it's time for a new generation of the jedi to be born and not go the old like the jedi of the old republic. Rey will do what Luke could do not, do not act on fear and fear the dark, but rather emrace it and learn like the prime jedi to be balanced in light and dark ying and yang.
I think Kylo lives but in exile or imprisoment, facing his crimes or hiding from them. Maybe he's locked inside a jedi temple and can't leave unless he completes the jedi trials embraces the path of redemtion and light to serve the force and not rule it.

 

The other thing is that Luke's story doesn't end in a romantic coupling because becoming a Jedi isn't about finding that special someone. I mean before all of this started, way back when, I naturally assumed Rey wouldn't end up with anyone.

 

It depends. Sometimes something can be so inoffensive that it becomes boring (and offensive to boot, funny enough). It's a matter of how you play it.

That said, I would rather they go the *ahem* "predictable" route with Rey and Finn ending up as lovers. I just want good character resolutions and a legacy that these characters will have, an impact.

Finn's character arc in the trilogy ending with him becoming closer to Rey and becoming her first Jedi apprentice to boot, would be a good way to resolve his arc.

On a more off-topic note, I feel that this is like the problem that I have with Disney, in that they don't give their characters a resolution and a legacy.

I mean, Ahsoka should be dead, but maybe they can give her an apprentice or something that lives on to carry her legacy. Give her closure.

Maul's Crimson Dawn could still be a thing by the time The Mandalorian takes place (and maybe he had a student as well besides the pseudo one that was Ezra)

Rex had a fitting end with his participation in the Battle of Endor, but I felt that they could've done more with his resolution, maybe meet some of his old Clone friends and come to some sort of accord again (besides the ones on Abafar).

And don't even get me started with Luke, who I feel had his legacy tarnished and his resolution had him die shortly after he even did anything in TLJ.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Rey/Finn would fit into both their resolutions for their current character arcs whereas Kylo/Rey just doesn't cut it. It's not "clean." It's contingent on Rey not giving a damn about all that has transpired since TFA first begins. In this case, predictable can be better, so long as its executed well. No need to "subvert" anymore tropes. Reylo basically seems to derail Rey's character development.

And yes, some people may say "Well, maybe later, after Kylo redeems himself, he could get with Rey."

Frankly, I'd rather they be companions at best. But lovers? Again, it's a bad resolution. And I feel that Disney is not that good in resolving character arcs or has plans for their resolution.

 

For some reason, every time I see this photo, all I can think of is Kylo meditating? I mean I know his hands aren't up in the air but dang it the lighting for them to be so is just there....and it makes me wonder if he's going "ummmmm" with his eyes open...probably not but still makes me giggle.

 

he looks dead inside to me in that image, like a zombie

 

This is why "predictable" in this context is the wrong critique. "Predictable" has a negative connotation, but characters concluding their natural arcs is still better than characters doing random inexplicable crap in the name of unpredictability. We have spent two movies watching Kylo murder and maim and torture all of our heroes. I've never seen a film resolve that kind of build up with giving that villain the love story with the heroine. That would meet my definition of an unsatisfying conclusion, regardless of the fact that it would be unpredictable.

When Vader became dad in ESB, he stopped torturing the heroes. He only killed bad guy subordinates in that movie. He froze Han, he didn't kill him. He saved Artoo. And still in the end of the following film, he was only redeemed to the hero he saved by killing the big bad guy. Kylo is the big bad guy at the end of TLJ. Normal payoff is the villain loses. The people that were good the whole time are rewarded and have resolution to what they've experienced. Reylo denies Rey any justice for Kylo's crimes against her.

For reylo to be a natural character arc imo, you'd need a whole new trilogy set after the ST that begins with Kylo seeking redemption. Deathbed, last-minute conversion after all that evil being instantly rewarded with romantic love from the hero isn't narratively satisfying, which is why no one can come up with any mainstream parallel for such a premise.

 

Perhaps "safe" is the word I'm looking for (I think?) but, really, even if that is indeed the correct word for it... What exactly is wrong with "safe?" Sometimes, "safe" can pay dividends in terms of story. Sometimes "safe" just means that the character or story is fulfilling its potential. Nothing really wrong with "safe."

 

JJ Abrams will probably not opt for Reylo, since romance isn’t necessary for this trilogy. Leia ought to say to Rey, “The Force and Romance are not good companions, as you have seen the fruit of it in my son.”

 

errrhhhh you seem to forgot that he also tortured Han in ESB before frozing Han. And he knew perfectly that Han could die in the carbonite, and put him in there anyways. And he chopped Luke's hand while he knew he was his son. Not to mention that he tells the Emperor that no matter what, his son will join them or die.

Vader is an awful character straight to the end, period. Proof is that even if he has been redeemed (only in his son's eyes, not even his daughter), the GA still considers him as one of the two scariest villains of SW. But it's ok, because.... nobody ever asked Luke to fall in love with him. He would have been his father even if he had refused to recognize him as such.

 

If you take Rebels into consideration he pretty much would have tried to kill Ahsoka without much thought.

Whats interesting about Vader though is that When he is going down a hallway taring people apart every one cheers, and there isn't many who wanted to see any sign of humanity in Vader with Asoka, because Vader is meant to be scary.