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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Will this movie make or break the ST for you?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Libs, Apr 22, 2019.

  1. Cave of Erised

    Cave of Erised Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 3, 2018
    Considering I already love the ST, it won’t break it for me if this ends up being a dud for me in the sense that a bad dinner doesn’t ruin my breakfast and lunch. To continue the metaphor: It would be disappointing, but the overall day won’t be ruined. To be honest, the ST is so good, that it can be meh and still score well enough as total unit. Case in point: The OT is wonderful, but I don’t particularly care for ROTJ.
     
  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    If RoS contains Reylo or any narrative that indicates that Kylo deserves pity and his behavior is other people’s fault, or if it portrays Finn as the dumb sidekick who needs to be lectured, this trilogy will be broken for me.

    However...I loved the trailer, and have hope for the trilogy after seeing it.
     
  3. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    I had a favorable, heady delirium all through the last season. The show was psychotic with raw invention. That was Abram's own playground. His system of mystery boxes did not destroy anyone else's work that was already there. There was nothing there; it was tabula rasa. He did not pave over any ancient great civilizations and put up a parking lot. In 2019, credit is now due, retrospectively, (there should now probably be a Nobel Prize) to creative attempts that do not re-film, remake, reboot, restart, repeat, rendition, resurrect prior works.

    I don't know of a fundamental ingredient of Star Wars that has been meaningfully transformed in the ST. Johnson pushes Luke to a place not logically enveloped by Lucas era Star Wars. Pick up a handful of gravel and sprinkle it over Rocky Road ice cream. That's a transformation. The transformation is not meaningful to the context in which the transformation is expected, which in this extended analogy is culinary. The transformation may very well receive very polite golf applause from a context of haute art. It certainly has meaning to *someone, of an haute cast, that they've been given a dessert bowl of the delicious sprinkled with the inedible. It's so deep.

    Now that I let that sit, I have to come back to Finn. Finn is the one fundamental ingredient of Lucas era Star Wars that has been meaningfully transformed. Abrams is *not stomping on legacy of invention by stealing whole swaths of prior work, here. Here, with Finn, he is pushing forward into a new, unknown region. Finn is the only place I see Abrams deeply thinking about anything. Perhaps ROS will at least give more air time to this original thought of his.

    I can see a parallel between Lucas' PT, a splendor of raw invention with a major detraction, and Abrams' LOST, a splendor of raw invention with a major detraction. I'm not too haughty to give Abrams that. Both were unfettered experiments in one's own backyard, that injured no one but onlookers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  4. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    If TROS does not play off of the things TLJ set up for it — Rey’s non-special lineage, Kylo’s growing insanity, the effect of Luke’s final act on the galactic population — it will be disappointing on some level, but probably not enough to “break” the ST. Just to be convinced it didn’t reach it’s full potential. I have confidence it will tie the saga up as a whole and be entertaining in it’s own right, as those things have been spoken of by JJ, but I have some concern it will miss a fair bit of opportunities set up by TLJ. I have concerns it will be as similar to ROTJ as TFA was to ANH. I liked most of the similarities TFA had to ANH, because that’s the whole point of Star Wars trilogies: You begin the new protagonist off in a similar situation to the protagonists of the other trilogies (Anakin and Luke) but then progress in a new direction. JJ, however, does not strike me as rooted in a unique enough vision for his movies, to end this saga on a new note. I have a feeling he’ll play it safe and make ROTJ 2 (see the speeder chase in the teaser).
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  5. Obironsolo

    Obironsolo Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2005
    I agree with this completely, and I don't think Disney has any right to complain about RJ. I think when you say "some part" of the audience didn't like it, that minimalizes the size of the audience that was unhappy. If you make a sequel in a huge franchise and it underperforms, or gets very low audience scores, that is a very good reason not to hire him again. I simply think the powers that be made a creative mistake with RJ, which they themselves most likely recognize. Maybe not. We shall see.
     
  6. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    If TROS doesn't deliver, I can still enjoy rewatching TFA and thinking about other possible outcomes once Rey faced Luke.
     
  7. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    The problem is that Lucas isn't always reliable.
    Back in the early 80's, he talked about both the PT and the ST and he said he had short outlines for all three ST films.
    Several years later he denied ever having any plans for the ST and claimed that the ST was just an invention by the media.
    That there was no more story after RotJ as SW is and always was "The Tragedy of Darth Vader." and with Vader/Anakin dead, the story was over.

    Then when he sold SW and Lucasfilm, now there were outline for the ST.
    Were those the same as the ones he talked about in the 80's or new ones?

    I would more agree with Lost_Hope and the PT biggest issue is poor execution.
    Some of the ideas are quite good, not all of them. But the writing, acting and directing are uneven and thus those good ideas don't reach their full potential.

    Was there a finished script when Disney bought SW?
    From what I've read, a script had begun to be written before Lucas sold SW but it was still being worked on when the sale happened.
    And after the sale, that script kept being worked on.
    But eventually that script was dropped and they started over.

    This is not very unusual in Hollywood, a script can be started and worked on for a long while and then the powers that be decide that it doesn't work so start over.

    It would certainly be interesting to read those early scripts and what Lucas plans for the ST were. And those outlines of the ST that he talked about in the 80's I would also like to read.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  8. Ginkasa

    Ginkasa Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2002
    I've enjoyed each of the ST movies so far. However, my main concern regarding the ST as a whole is that it hasn't really felt like the natural continuation from the story told in the PT and OT, but just more Star Wars. Another Star Wars story; not the same story. Its really up to TRoS to tie it all together and make it feel like one continuous story. The trailer certain gave me the impression that will be the case. If it doesn't do this, though, it may hamper my appreciation for the ST as a whole even if I enjoy all three movies (and the trilogy itself disconnected from the PT and OT).
     
  9. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    It can make it, break it, or just conclude it.

    Make it, if you did not like the ST so far.
    Break it, if you liked the ST and is afraid a bad conclusion would impact what you currently like.
    Conclude it, if you like the ST so far and is not afraid of an ending that might leave things open or unanswered.
     
  10. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Does it even matter if Episode IX "makes or breaks" SW for some fans? If a fan has the idea that they will only be a fan of Star Wars if <fill in the blank> happens, then what does it matter if they fall by the wayside when it does not happen?
     
  11. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    This will probaly make the ST for most peopel like with TFA only a more connective movie with the rest of the first 6.
     
  12. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    The point is that Lucas knew that his stories were going to be his stories so that in the end it would all work out (as they did). Adding interpretations is fine because it's all being interpreted by the same person over 20 plus years.

    The starting point for this trilogy by any sequel story logic should have been working either from the actual stories Lucas had given them or at the least interpreting from the already existing movies. Neither of these approaches were taken.

    They went down a different path with TFA then took what is now a detour down a completely different path (since JJ is going to favor his own over TLJ).

    The ST is broken because there is no way possible to actually wholly reconnect it to I-VI or within itself. Now it's a question of the severity of the breaks and is there any way possible to take the threads of story from the prequels that haven't been directly broken yet? As the ST is effectively now a symbolic sequel to the prequels because the story of the OT has been discarded the question is will JJ be able to effectively introduce all the threads necessary to do so?

    Which in hindsight was their ambition all along. We might have suspected that already but until the movies were made you can't know for sure. Even after TFA it was still possible to do a lot over 2 more movies.

    Which is a great point. This trilogy in itself, whatever the problems, is really it's own thing based on Star Wars but not a continuation. The least chance for it to actually seem like a continuation of some kind now has to be achieved by this one movie.

    Which means having Sidious, Anakin, delving into the balance of the Force, the prophecy of the Chosen One and all those other elements as well as pulling aspects from TCW like the Mortis arc, the Yoda arc and somehow introducing them, explaining them and integrating them all into one movie. It'd have been so much easier to use these elements and work them in over 3 movies than cram them into one final movie.

    Which is the extremely difficult part that I don't know how a mystery box guy like JJ can accomplish. He's been shown to love his mysteries over everything and loathe to explain things properly but jam them in quickly so you have to rewind them later and try to figure out how it fits.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  13. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    The thread opening post is make or break the ST, not make or break SW. A lot of people have deep reserves of good will they are extending to ROS. If I might make a sweeping generalization, those extending themselves are more polyculture diet star wars consumers, whereas those whose reserves of goodwill have possibly been exhausted are more monoculture diet star wars consumers. I'm a monoculture diet star wars consumer, which is sort of like a single issue voter. ST has completely blown the chance to meet expectations on several of my single issues, which are single issues that Lucas era Star Wars set certain standards for, and the balance of quality remaining in the ST doesn't mobilize any reserve good will. But for many fans, they are Not monoculture, Not single issue voters, and have reserve good will in the tank that will be mobilized by some optimized distribution of quality.

    Modernity is changing by the second, at the moment, and so the expectations for keeping this IP market relevant are going to change by the second. Monoculture / single issue voters will simply not have their daily recommended allowance of their particular star wars nutrient, and they'll allocate time to some other IP. I'm going to bet that there are certain star wars nutrients, nutrients found in star wars that have become identified with star wars, that cannot be obtained from any other IP.

    Does it matter to Disney if monoculture / single issue voters fall by the wayside? Only if the revenue streams are not recouped from new consumers.

    One other thing. I got the idea this was a revelation. Maybe I'm dead wrong in all the ways. "There is no way that Star Wars can be secured against intrusion by hard sci fi ideas like time travel, teleportation, and so forth." That is because all barriers between IPs have been reduced. What used to be selective osmosis of sufficiently small ideas that might strengthen another IP by alloying, is now direct injection. Marvel is now directly injected into Star Wars. I don't concern myself with how Star Wars is directly injected into Marvel, as Marvel is not any of my formation. But the inevitable, like the drowning of Numenor, is that Disney Star Wars will in the forseeable future share more critical sci-fi detail than differ by. This is because Lucas originated his vision from anthropology. Lucasfilm and Disney possess mouses that direct pixels, and all that pixel capability MUST be filled up by some content activity crap things that happen that is generated by people that are not originating their vision from anthropology. I am not certain Johnson reached for the golden ring, here, even to miss it and at least get credit for the effort. His take on Kylo is, apparently, exceedingly modern. Not sufficiently timeless for my taste. Unless someone can demonstrate it is timeless. (And, Abrams certainly did not.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  14. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    No matter what the TFA/TLJ/TROS trilogy does will take my love away from the NJO series, KOTOR comics, Legacy comics, Darth Vader comics, Aphra comics, R1 etc.
     
  15. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2018
    I was reading an old magazine the other day that had GL talking about the saga as a 6 part, with RotJ being the culmination of the story. He was also planning on starting the PT shortly after RotJ at that point.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  16. topgoalscorer_no11

    topgoalscorer_no11 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2001
    From memory, Lucas's early 80s plans for Episodes VII, VIII and IX were discussed in the Annotated Screenplays (the best book to read to understand the Star Wars creative process). This comes I think from Gary Kurtz, and it appears it was only ever a sketchy outline, but the idea was essentially that Leia was not Luke's sister (this was the plan before RotJ), and the Emperor would not come into Episode VI in any significant way. The plan was for Luke to defeat/redeem Vader in Episode VI, he would then spend the following trilogy searching for the long lost 'another Skywalker' mentioned by Yoda, who would eventually turn out to be his twin sister, hidden on the other side of the Galaxy. The Emperor would be the baddy defeated at the end of Episode IX. It's amusing to speculate that should Rey turn out to be Kylo's sister and they team up to defeat Palpatine at the end of IX, this would be in a way Lucas's original plan in action in a bastardised form.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  17. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2018
    Agreed.

    I take your point regarding Lost. I was terribly disappointed, but I can see the merit in the experimental exercise and creative freedom you descibe. This is not the perspective from which I approached Lost, but - on this level - I can now see the value and agree JJ deserves credit.

    Yeah, this is true. I suppose I tend to overlook this because I go through similar creative phases myself. Some days I feel like a work is complete, the next I see a glaring issue I can't believe I missed. Or, I will be inspired by something see new opportunities which hadn't been evident before. While I don't enjoy Max Rebo Band, I do understand the impulse to refine, add to or otherwise "finish".

    We can agree to disagree on the degree to which this is true. To me, the positives of the PT far outweigh the negatives, but I acknowledge the prequels are not perfect.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  18. Master_Lok

    Master_Lok Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2012
    Skeptically speaking, it doesn’t matter what it does as my opinion of the ST films is at zero.

    I would like the young, good-leaning characters to actually get something of a character arc in this last ST film, but I am not expecting anything from it. Largely due to my indifference to Abrams and my erasing both TFA and TLJ from my memory.

    So, whatever.

    I just want another movie like Rogue One.

    Will always enjoy this universe no matter what is done with characters and concepts I still dig.
     
  19. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2012
    I loved TFA.
    I did not love TLJ.
    TLJ damaged TFA (for me)

    My only hope is that TROS does something to make the ST fit better as an actual part of the Saga (for me).

    Not make or break, but make less broken. Hopefully.
     
  20. Ginkasa

    Ginkasa Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 13, 2002
    That's not the question. Fans of Star Wars don't necessarily like everything Star Wars. I've really enjoyed the ST so far, but I think its a little disingenuous to imply that someone who doesn't like the ST isn't a fan of Star Wars.
     
  21. Jabberwock2137

    Jabberwock2137 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2013
    If the <fill in the blank> part is being offered a well acted, well scripted, well directed film....then i reckon it does matter and it matters enough to make, break or completey expunge a trilogy.
     
  22. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Yes. They've pushed so many things into the third movie that, without sticking the landing, the sequel trilogy will be a disjointed mess.

    Personally, I still feel that Ep 9 has to justify why there's even a story after ROTJ (a CINEMA-worthy one - yes I know there's always been books) , because TFA and TLJ both feel like (as a poster above said) "just more Star Wars." Pretty much.

    If they can pay off a lot of the creative decisions that were made during the ST, great. I'm rooting for them to do it. There's things like Rey beating Kylo straight up in TFA that make me wonder where this could all be going. You don't have Luke beat Darth Vader in ESB without a reason for doing that which helps the characters grow.

    If Rey just beats Kylo again and light beats dark (as it did in ROTJ), then yeah, eh. I don't mean that I want a bad guy ending. Just an ending that teaches (or even redefines, or even resolves) the light vs dark conflict of all 9.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
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  23. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Of course, this from a certain point of view. What matters is that a significant majority of fans enjoy the film. There's no way to please everyone.
     
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  24. TheForceMakesCoffee

    TheForceMakesCoffee Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2015
    I overall like the ST quite a bit, and don't think TROS can "break" it for me.

    Unless JJ tries too hard to "fix" TLJ with retconning and fan service.
     
  25. Jabberwock2137

    Jabberwock2137 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2013
    No matter which ''certain point
    No matter which 'certain point of view' you look at it an AMC Pacer is a pile of crap.....you can still like it if that's what pushes your buttons but.... end of the day it's still a pile of crap.....