ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) in the ST

Luke's father was space Hitler, He redeemed him but can't save his nephew? In TLJ his writing is so inconsistent.

 

@fugacity, it’s not about my long list of requirements. I mentioned in my earlier post about things that were actually IN TLJ that I hated about the film. Your comment was , “ I didn’t see that film”.

Well, I didn’t make any of what I said up. It was all in the film that I saw. Those were facts; not my “ head canon” of what I saw. Since you claimed that you didn’t see that movie, I said that then we must have seen different versions of that film, because I was only listing things that I actually SAW (I didn’t make any of it up) that I didn’t like. After your comment about not seeing the film, I just repeated that list of things that I didn’t like( the negatives), just stating the opposite of them ( the positives, which I would have liked), which seemed to be your version of the film.

Obviously you and I just need to agree to disagree, because we don’t see the same things in the same way, at all. As you said, “ I didn’t see that movie”. Yet, I was just listing what WAS in the movie. As I said I didn’t manufacture any of it. It was all in the film.

 

@AnakinTheChosenOne
And if he had the opportunity to save the galaxy from him, he would have considered it for a moment.
More importantly, you're acting like he decided that he was going to kill Ben, an was intending to follow through with it. He reacted, even igniting the

@ChildOfWinds
You hate what they did with Luke. Okay. You don't have to like it. Throwing out hyperbolic extreme criticism that implies only morons could like it...sorry, I take exception. I think I'd hate the cliche version of Luke that a lot of people seem to need. I'd prefer you at least accept that you don't like it, but it's not idiotic for anybody else to. My points here have been along those lines - I think what they did is not irrationally contrived junk writing, and I think that can be demonstrated. Doesn't mean it was perfect or that they didn't go a little far, but the high level portrayal is very defensible.

 

@fugacity
Having the thought is the problem here.

 

Wow, I find that extreme.

 

@fugacity
Not trying to be extreme, I just don't buy that Luke would have those thoughts, and going as far as to igniting his Saber over his head, it's just weird.

 

@AnakinTheChosenOne
I hear you. I really dislike a Luke that is that unflawed.

 

Oh no me too, that's why it's hard to get behind Rey in these new films. I just wish it was a different flaw, that's all.

 

I'm challenging myself by asking if Obi Wan would do the same had he decided to read Anakin. I'm not sure. I think he may in a moment of panic.

I think the Rey thing is fair. I really, really like the character, but I do think she could use some personal failings besides believing in Ben too much and wanting to find her parents. I think TLJ kind of touched on those things holding her back, kind of. It's fair criticism, she's a little too good at things and I hope they explain that, and also challenge here with a flaw, although it's coming a little late.

edit - you rank all three PT films before Empire?!? Just saw it in your signature. That's more shocking than finding out Luke tortures puppies.

 

@fugacity

Not sure how Obi-Wan would have reacted to be honest.

Yeah, Rey is the character that just baffles me, she doesn't train but still beats Kylo and the Praetorian guards. If we get an explanation In TROS I think it's a little too late.

Edit: Yes, I do. They are the films I grew up with and every time I watch them, they get better and better. They're my Star Wars, so glad I grew up with this magnificent trilogy.

 

It’s a good conversation.

I’ll add this.

Many monks (and knights) train their minds to be a certain way, partially because words and actions follow thoughts and mindsets.

A Jedi would absolutely train their minds in certain ways. They’d train themselves not to have certain thoughts or points of view. Be mindful of your thoughts, they betray you. They’d train themselves not to have dishonest, cruel, hateful, malevolent, bigoted, vengeful, or violent, murderous thoughts.

Cruel thoughts lead to cruel words and actions. Vengeful thoughts lead one down the path of vengeance. Bigoted thoughts lead to bigoted words and actions. Violent thoughts lead to violent actions. Thoughts of murder lead to acts of murder.

Is Luke not a Jedi? We already know he’s received this training. We know he knows that fear, anger, hatred, the dark side are they.

Your weapons, you will not need them. Why did Luke think he needed his lightsaber when entering Kylo’s dark side tent? Kylo’s tent, the dark side cave, they’re the same. It’s basically the same test. He already learned that lesson.

This isn’t inhuman. We all do this. We all train ourselves to correct improper thinking. If, for example, we have bigoted thoughts, we correct ourselves and train ourselves not to think that way, because it is in fact wrong thinking. Yes, there is right thinking, and wrong thinking. Just like there is right, logical reasoning, and wrong, illogical reasoning.


We already know what Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace, and the rest would do if they read Anakin, because they DID read Anakin, and sensed the danger in him. See through him, they could. They were around him and his fear and anger, his dark side, for over a decade. They didn’t try to murder him.

 

I could understand Mace, Yoda and Obi want to murder Anakin though, Anakin did kill younglings and helped purge the Jedi, and pledged his allegiance to the Sith lord they were looking for since TPM, there mindset would have been justified. Luke literally just saw Ben's dream and wanted to kill him. It's ridiculous.

 

I do think that there is a difference between what the Jedi could sense in Anakin (general fear and anger) and what Luke sensed in Ben (plotting mass murder), for what it's worth.

 

Well, we do know how he reacted when he learned that Anakin had slaughtered the younglings. He told Yoda he couldn't kill Anakin. His first instinct was not a fleeting moment of insanity. He handled it like a normal, mature person would handle it. His first emotion was compassion.

 

If not acting like Luke acts in TLJ means being totally unflawed, then geez, I must be a freakin' saint. Where's my Jedi Master robe?

 

Luke has flirted with the dark side against Vader above Endor, because his father sensed that Leia is his daughter, and directly threatens to turn her on his side. This sudden onset of rage from Luke is the result of a primal, instinctive and organic sense of desperation. Then he sees his father broken, with his arm missing, and is reminded of himself above Bespin, when he was the victim of dark side rage and lost a limb. It is not very common to be able to read exactly what is happening in someone's mind in a movie, but when the scene is flawless, it is easier than reading hieroglyphics. Luke refuses to become Vader.

He tosses away his lightsaber, because if he kills his father, he will become his father. And he knows it. But he is the white knight. Since when being the white knight in a story is a problem? He is the unbroken one, the one who resisted, the one who composed himself, the one who is better than his father was. I don't understand why this was even a debate. Luke will most definitely use a lightsaber again to protect his family and his friends and the Galaxy. But he won't use one if it means turning to the dark side and becoming a monster. I don't see how this is open to interpretation, aka, I completely agree with you.

I am sorry, I don't see anything nuanced. I see a failure and a coward throughout the whole movie. And there is nothing balanced about letting evil win. The only cheap shot at the story we see in TLJ was done by the story teller of that movie.

Precisely. Anakin was presented as having succumbed to the dark side mostly because of love. If love is not the driving force that can make a good person do bad things, I don't know what is. It certainly did not appear like it was the Jedi who were responsible for Anakin's fall. It was a series of events, feelings and circumstances, that led to his fall, many of which were manipulated by Palpatine. Aka actually the bad guy. People are responsible for their actions, or their lack of actions when necessary.

Yeap, that's precisely how I see it as well. I think the film tries to say that Luke was totally justified in ALL of his actions. It tries to show us that he needed a wake up call to go back and help his friends, but it really does not imply anywhere that he was wrong. Even in the scene where Yoda schools him again (I wonder, when has this happened before? Oh right, it has happened in a movie where Luke actually appears to grow and do the right thing, against Yoda's advice, and then proceeds to prove Yoda wrong and do everything the right way), Luke does not appear to be "wrong", just a little misguided. And for what? Some books in an old temple that actually don't matter, and guess what, a Force Ghost can summon lightning and burn them. Yodeus Ex Machina anyone?

No need to underestimate the ability of critical thinking and judgement by other people. You just happen to disagree, and that is ok. I completely and utterly hate what they did to Luke, after having thought about it and analyzed it in my head more than I would like to admit. I walked out of the theater very confused, thinking that something had bothered me but not knowing what it is. Well, it was a lot of things, the most important of which was Luke's portrayal. For me, it made zero sense. And I will have to disagree with you about the story. I honestly think that the story could not be any worse.

Anakin was not an answer to anything, and I don't think there is a single spot in the official lore that mandates a numerical balance between force users. If that was the case, then the Jedi would not have preserved a complete domination of the light side of The Force for 1000 generations, there would not be hundreds and hundreds of Force sensitive kids being born during the Empire years, there would not be the notion that the dark side of the Force is corrupt (it literally corrupts the body), and there would not be the notion that after Episode VI balance was restored in the Force. The galaxy in Star Wars is not supposed to have zero presence of force sensitives, and it's also not supposed to be one bad guy for every good guy. That's first of all kinda absurd, and second, it is literally not mentioned anywhere. The fact that Snoke says that Rey's emergence is because Kylo has grown strong does not mean a 1:1 balance of the Force.

I don't know about that. My Luke is the Luke in 1-6, and my saga is also 1-6, so my Luke, is the saga's Luke.

1. Yoda never said they allowed the Sith to take over. He says they failed in trying to preventing them. There is a huge difference.
2. I beg to differ. I think everything was stupid about Luke in TLJ. Also, Star Wars is not the real world. People might believe in the craziest stuff, but Luke is not "people"
3. Everything Luke does in the movie is shown as his own decision, because people generally take their own decisions.

Well, I have never been disappointed by certain people that I hold dear in my heart, and I hold them there for that specific reason. Because I know they follow through. And even the ones that are in very dark places, like a friend of mine who is in depression for years now, I know she will always be there for me. She might take 2-3 days to respond to a text message sometimes, but she will always be kind, gentle and affectionate. So that's what I expected from Luke after 4-6. I expected him to always follow through, like he was shown to do in the past. You would think that a character would actually solidify his best traits after having achieved so much. How is THAT restrictive, but having Luke broken, depressed, ambiguously scared and afraid, a coward and a passive person is giving the story room to breathe? I don't accept that story, I am sorry. It is way too far fetched for me to believe, way too disappointing for the end to make it up to me, way too depressing to forgive and way too final to have hope. Luke is dead. He cannot fix it, and TROS cannot fix that part of the story.

I would take a completely unflawed Luke Skywalker over TLJ Luke in a heartbeat. In fact, I would take an unflawed Luke over most versions of broken Luke. Luke is not Batman. He is Luke. Whose most important trait was that he never gave up and always tried, and actually more often than not, delivered. So yeah, I would even take Luke "destroying Imperial Star Destroyers with a wave of his hand" over TLJ Luke.

And you would think someone with a lightsaber comes from a more civilized age, right?

 

I can understand having a problem with the portrayal of Luke. I have some problems with the portrayal myself in some respects. But I don't really agree with the perspective that Luke has a quasi-villainous role. I can understand, for personal philosophical reasons, for viewing him as a "loser" or "pathetic", but I think the idea that his actions are villainous to be excessive.

 

I personally don`t see him as villainous. Ironically, I could have possibly at least respected a villainous role so for me the portrayal he did have is way worse than that of a good villain. I mean, I`m not comparing him to pathetic scum like Kylo, that`s a too low bar to beat. But compared to Vader? Luke is infinitely worse to me the way he was in TLJ.

 

This is really what it boils down to. I think all the loser/pathetic/coward stuff is still way too far too. We should try to accept the nuance of what is being shown and not jump to a black and white characterization where if we see a flaw, we're done and it's time to hate a movie.

I see why we disagree. I would walk out of a theater if I saw this.

Sorry if it seems over the top. I am not saying that everybody that dislikes TLJ wants unflawed cliche Luke. In fact, I'd much rather talk about differences in opinion than defend the portrayal against mischaracterization.

@CT-867-5309
I don't think comparison of the Jedi "reading" Anakin to Luke seeing into Ben's mind is fair. I don't think there's a comparable circumstance...and I'd say 100% that Mace would have gone farther with Ben than Luke did.


In general, I think Luke reading Ben and reacting is defensible story telling. I don't want to defend the Luke for doing it, but it is believable. Luke by his own admission wasn't in a great place leading up to the hut event. He was too prideful and was not where a mature monk should be. I'd like to get that story some day too, but I am willing to be told and go with it.

There is a difference between not liking that a character could do something or could believe some thign, and bad writing. I think there could be a story line that is terrible for Luke and still not contrived junk writing. We have to allow for that or we should stop the collective "just tell us a good story" trope. Personally, I think TLJ enhanced Luke as a character. I don't see cowardice, passivity etc. I think if you allow yourself to believe the character arc being told, instead of ignoring it because you don't like what you see, there is a lot there and it's makes sense for the character to be the way he is. Too much? maybe - that's execution, but it's reasonable story telling.

 

To be fair, it is *most* challenging to save one's nephew when you're plotting to murder him in his sleep.

"Space Hitler."

 

Unrelated, but Leia’s father was Space Hitler, and she did such a bad job raising her son he wanted to be just like her father.

These movies are so depressing.

 

Remember how the original moves were about Leia teaching Han that there's more to life than money, and Han teaching Leia that there's more to life than duty, each complementing the other in a relationship which mutually strengthened them and made them both better, more well-rounded people?

Well it turns out none of that mattered at all and after they got married, Han reverted back to being a deadbeat smuggler and Leia continued to devote every waking moment of her life to her career, leading them both to emotionally neglect their only child and abandon him to the predations of an evil sorcerer.



Enjoy!

 

I don't think the conclusion we can draw is necessarily that it was Han and Leia's fault that Ben fell to dark side, and especially not that they were neglectful.

 

The main characters turned out to not be happily ever after cliches, and I'm glad. It made room for a ST at all.

This isn't criticism for all who dislike TLJ or the St as a whole - I get it, but others want a happily ever from VI after and still have a meaningful epilogue...
Hero's are still human after their hero's journey and character arc.