ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in the ST

Rey being a novice makes her acting on the vision worse, not better. Because she is new, she shouldn’t be relying on it so heavily. She’s not a dogmatic old Jedi Master who has been letting the Force control her every action for decades, she should still be an entirely free agent, not a puppet of Force visions. She shouldn’t even be thinking that way yet. The Force shouldn’t mean jack **** to her in TLJ. It should just be a physical superpower at that point that she is learning to control.

No, she should not trust the Force, she doesn’t know it yet.

 

the point in her being a novice is that she doesn’t know not to trust the force, especially the dark side of the force.

it’s the dark side of the force that manipulates her to wrongfully thinking Kylo can be turned back to the light side.

 

Ah yes, that time honored advice for Jedi: "Don't trust The Force." Jedi (new and experienced) are susceptible to dark side manipulations all the time. Why is Rey any different?

 

She’s already not trusted the Force her entire life. She ran away from it in TFA. It’s alien to her, and worse, it’s intrusive in TLJ.

Luke told her it wasn’t going to go the way she thought. She can “trust the Force”, her own complete inexperience with it, but she can’t trust a master of it? Ah, because RJ made sure Luke was completely undeserving of respect.

wut

Wanting to redeem a fallen man is the dark side now? This is ludicrous, the knots people will twist themselves into to explain this ****.

 

I’m not twisting myself into a knot lol, I’m just offering my perspective.

For most of her life Rey is unaware of her force sensitivity, just like Luke at the start of ANH. So yes since she is new to the force, and has completed her training, she is very susceptible to the manipulation of the dark side, Snoke uses this to trick her.

Her wanting to redeem Kylo is ludicrous, I agree, and again I think by the end of the film it’s obvious she was wrong to think so. But I still think she’s basing her decision on a vision that originates from the dark side of the force. And her not being fully trained in the ways of the force allows her to more easily fall for the trap.

 

Rey became open to/accepting The Force in TFA. It's literally the title of the movie and the main narrative. In TLJ, Luke is jaded, cynical, and is hesitant to help her in the way she needs/wants.

Redeeming a fallen man is not the dark side. The manipulated Force vision that was motivating her into hasty action was a machination of Snoke...thus, the dark side.

 

It doesn't matter if the film treats it as if it's wrong if it's something she never would have done in the first place. That's kind of the issue here. Nothing in the film even remotely approaches being compelling enough of a reason for her to go back on the one good conviction she has as a protagonist.

 

Likely, the same reason young Jedi in these stories rarely put logic and reasoning in front of their emotions after seeing future visions thru The Force...

 

Who said “emotions relating to Kylo”? I never said that. That’s your read of it. You think she has a thing for Ren. Shipper?

 

Heroes acting on visions was done at least three times in I-VI and each time it was far more sympathetic and appealing than the one in TLJ.

 

Yep, TFA happened. And she very much is in THAT state when first confronting Ren. She's shoots at him, she calls him a monster. He event taunts her with it, commenting on that look she had in the woods. Yet, she's not a static character. She changes throughout TLJ.

I am sorry they didn't make sense to you. It worked for me. I felt that her motives and her journey was in line with (played by the rules of) what we've before seen in these stories. Ultimately I didn't think the movie asked us to make huge logistical leaps in this regard.

Again, this is where she is at with him at the beginning of TLJ. It wasn't disregarded.

First of all, calling "desiring fellowship" makes it seems more romantic and sexual than it's ever presented in the film. Kuddos for that phasing. It's like naughty and church all at once.

She and Ren cannot control when the Force connections occur. Again, they are being manipulated by Snoke. Neither of them choose when/how the Force connection happens. Neither is a willing participant. Rey and Ren do not choose to sync up the connection or actively "reach out" at any point. Is this incorrect? It's "Forced" upon them.

Initially, Rey doesn't want to have anything to do with Kylo Ren. She is filled with the rage that you so describe at the end of TFA. Yet, she needs to know one thing. She wants an answer: How/why could Kylo Ren murder his own father (our beloved Han Solo)? This opens the door to Kylo being manipulative as well. His whole "lost son" thing could be real, yet seems to be a ruse designed to lure Rey in to the Dark Side. We see this manifest when he plays on her insecurities (family stuff) and tries to twist her to the Dark Side. Furthermore, their Force communicating seems to be a process that evolves over time. I am not sure how long she is on the island, or if we see all of their conversations.

As an audience, we are supposed to fear the path to the Dark Side for all Jedi in training, but the film makes sure to point out that Rey goes straight to the Dark Side without hesitation. Luke has seen that only once before with Ben Solo. THAT is the temptation/threat that Kylo Ren in providing. It's not about romance, it's not about empathy, it's about Kylo Ren trying to turn her to the Dark Side, and Rey trying to use the power of the Force in order to help The Resistance survive/win.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with this. While in our real time world, it was two years between TFA and TLJ. For Rey, it was mere days. Realistically, she did not have the time* the audience did to process the events of Episode 7 before going into Episode 8. There is a bit of a disconnect there. I think this is a weakness of TLJ. A strong argument can be made that they should have not picked up events IMMEDIATELY after TFA. Flipside to that is: How could they not given the set up/cliff hanger?


*Did you ever used to watch the tv show "24" with Kiefer Sutherland playing Jack Bauer? It was supposed to be in "real time." Each hour long episode was one hour of his day fighting terrorists, etc. Well, if you spaced out the episodes and watched one episode weekly, the narrative and made sense...the producers seemed to count on the spaces between episodes. Yet, if you binged watched episodes, you realized quickly that Jack Bauer was not reacting to events that happened mere hours ago in any kind of realistic/human way.

Meh. Star Wars is pretty loosey goosey with how it deals with characters and their "real" pain, sorrow, and anger. These are archetypal characters in a fantasy world. Yes, they are grounded and (mostly) relatable. However, there are a lot of instances of characters in every trilogy not really responding to the fantastic events going on around them in "realistic" ways. It's part of the style of these movies. We could get into specifics, but this is probably not the forum for it.

If I'm not mistaken, Rey isn't enthralled or satisfied or taken in with his answer about Han Solo's murder. She basically views Ren as a monster up until she hears his take on the night he turned on Luke Skywalker and destroyed the temple. No? So, his response/deflection about murdering his father isn't something that causes her to engage with him anyways...

 

Such as?

 

This isn't even a new line of argument for these films. You have people who view the film as some kind of revolutionary step forward for the series' story but when presented with all the backward attempts at storytelling that the ST has, they end up talking out of the other end of their mouth and go "Well, Star Wars has always been like this" and then proceed to use a completely inapplicable and incorrect comparison. Any discussion surrounding Kylo Ren goes down this path fairly regularly.

 

Exactly. The underlined are your personal explanations, or hypothetical/possible explanations that people may come up with? Either way, it's whatever works for the viewer. People see what they want to see and fill in perceived narrative gaps with their own explanations. This is essentially head canon, no? Obviously, there is a TON of this going on in all facets of Star Wars. It's not necessarily that these films are weak narratively, it's just built into the genre/style.

Fantasy/fairy tales heroes do certain things because that's what they do within these types of stories. The characters follow patterns and formula (or in come cases do the inverse of the pattern/formula). George Lucas has said as much. I maintain that a certain amount suspension of disbelief is always beneficial (if not required) for Star Wars because these characters rarely react how "real people" would. They act like archetypes do when the script/story dictates. That's nothing new.

1. I'm not sure where your narrative of TFA supposed to be a "new improved version of ANH" comes from. It's a cynical take for sure. Certainly TFA is very similar to ANH, but I have never heard anyone (creators/critics/fans) tout it as the "new and improved" ANH. If anything, similarities to ANH have been a source of criticism for TFA.

2. I think that it is only fair to hold elements of any new Star Wars film to the standards set by the previous. Obviously, there is a balancing act. I mean, Jedi now display more abilities/powers than a Jedi did in 1977-1983. It's a tenuous thing to do "new" in Star Wars, yet hold true to what's come before. See: midichlorians. Furthermore, fans scrutinize any new Star Wars movies A LOT more than upon first viewing the original. It's been that way since 1999, at least. There are things that the prequels and sequels get hammered for that are accepted in the OT.

3. I don't care is a character is a supporting character, or main character...their emotions/reactions need to be consistent with the rules of the movie/galaxy that they are in. It should not matter if they are supporting, or main. Rey is not breaking any established norm that we've seen in any Star Wars movie. These are archetypal characters with a layer of "relatable" human painted over them. That may seem dismissive, or negative, but it's one of the reasons these movies have endured.

Sure. Unless you hate AOTC, I suppose.

We'll see after Episode IX. Side question: Is Anakin the main protagonist of TPM?

Can you rephrase this, or say it in a different way for me?

 

It's pretty simple. His point is that there is very little that Kylo could say that would dissuade her from how she feels regarding his actions toward her and those she cared about. The film hardly gives anything compelling that seems like it would make her feel otherwise.

 

This is where you lose me. I absolutely love TFA. Yet, I don't think it set a higher standard than the PT and OT. I think it was par for the course. It checked all of the boxes, successfully pushed the narrative ahead 30 years, and was a rollicking space adventure that I'd been waiting for. That said, it didn't necessarily break any new ground as far as Star Wars goes. It played things relatively safe...especially compared to the prequels. From production design, to new concepts, TFA it was like a perfectly orchestrated greatest hits tour. It was exactly what was needed. Again, I disagree that it upped the ante for Star Wars films.

Agreed, but the characters still have a primary/archetypal function. As cool as Rey is, she's not new as an archetype. She's cut from the same cloth as Wonder Woman or Athena. She's a crusader (with a little bit of the lost soul mixed in). You can dress up these archetypes in a variety of ways...they still have to fulfill their function in the monomyth. Sure, it should not be at the expense of the character...but often that's simply in the eye of the beholder. Example: Why was Anakin Skywalker reviled by some who thought he was petulant and whiny compared to Luke Skywalker? My thought is because this characterization was not what some people had in mind for a young Darth Vader....even though he is fulfilling the archetypal narrative perfectly.

Rey has a backbone. She has strength. In TLJ, she has a lot of fiery moments like in TFA. That said, being strong isn't always raging and responding with venom and violence at every moment. In any event, this is not even how Rey is during most of TFA. Think of Rey's characterization in TFA, she was very vulnerable and introspective in some moments. She used her rage/fire/aggression to cover up her sadness about the whole being abandoned thing. Yeah, she's tough and street smart, but she's got a huge insecurities and naivety in other situations. Be honest: She seems angry and on the verge of tears in a lot of TFA and TLJ.

As far as Kylo Ren's archetype: To me, he is clearly the forgotten son. This is the same archetype as Mordred, Loki, etc. Classic dark prince type of stuff. This is what hit me as soon as he took off his helmet in TFA. He's obviously posing as a monster/tyrant...ala Darth Vader, but like most who are this same archetype...he's creating an illusion to project fear. He's dressing up in (grand) daddy's clothes.

The suggestion of REN being a Byronic Anti-hero in TLJ seems apt upon first glance, but the problem is this...he's not a hero, nor even morally grey anti-hero. He's the villain through and through.

TLJ plays with the idea of Ren's redemption as a hero, but that's just it....it's a tease to Rey and us. He never does anything heroic, his saving Rey was a result of his big power grab. He didn't do this for her, nor for good. He did it because he was pissed at Snoke and was doing the Sith thing. This is why it perplexes me when some fans suggest we were, ultimately, supposed to feel empathy for Ren. Ultimately, we weren't supposed to. Luke and Leia confirm this near the end with their lines. Again, Ren's redemption in TLJ was a tease, and a fake out... for the audience and for Rey.

Why does she care about Ren's perspective of the waking up to a lightsaber incident? Insight into Luke Skywalker and what happened to him. The story doesn't involve her, her interest is in the Luke Skywalker aspect. She wants to know why her legendary hero is dejected and broken.

Think back to Ren's version of the story. Luke is evil with a murderous/dark side face. Rey's reaction is never, "Oh Ben you poor baby." She doesn't actually show him sympathy after his version is told. What Rey does immediately (with her piss and vinegar that you loved from TFA still intact) is confront Luke and demand the truth. She wants to know why he lied and if his actions (and subsequent inactions) put the entire galaxy in jeopardy. Now, of course I thought she should trust Luke Skywalker....because he's Luke Skywalker. He wasn't the legend she'd expected though. This is where her street smarts and all that cloud her judgment. She rushes him just like she did Finn in the market, just like she did Ren in the woods. We are supposed to be a bit worried by this as it seems she is being tempted by/acting on The Dark Side, or is, at least, recklessly in danger.

It doesn't. Rey is not persuaded by Ren's story. She is persuaded with the "clear as day" Force Vision, the idea/legend that Luke turned Vader good, and by the fact that Luke lied to her about Ren's turn.

It's not a double standard. Ultimately, TLJ doesn't treat Ren as a hero/victim with any honesty or sincerity whatsoever.

TLJ toys around with Ren's redemption as a narrative ruse while, at the same time, teasing the audience with the idea that Rey may turn to The Dark Side. Neither of these actually come to fruition, yet the film had to keep the audience guessing until the lightsaber was split. Some fans are still upset that these lines were blurred or teased which is odd considering that Rey and Ren fulfill the classic protagonist/antagonist functions of being mirrors of each other. Would you prefer the movie not mess around with this dynamic?

 

So...which is it? It can't be both.

There was nothing to actually tease in the first place though. When he took the throne for himself, it was the least surprising thing that could have possibly happened. We already knew that he was a murderous megalomaniac. That's why it is such an issue for a lot of people that Rey is strung along this awful plotline since not only does she not know this character well enough at all, he's also hurt the only people that have treated her as something other than a means to an end. Something a lot of of people who want to think TLJ's a good film seem to constantly ignore at all times. That is significant and makes much of what occurs completely and utterly unbelievable.

Well...in this case, yes. In order to mess around with this dynamic, they'd have to provide context for traits in which they are comparable. However, this is not the case. They are so diametrically opposite of one another in every way which results in their TLJ interaction not having the slightest trace of believability.

See, this is it. This is the kind of pathetic apologia people are referring to. He isn't the forgotten son. He is no way comparable to any incarnation of Mordred. He was never forgotten. People always talk about "bringing him home" and "coming back to the Light" and how he's so "split apart". He's fully intent on his ways, was wanting for nothing and was generally a complete brat. That is pretty much fully apparent and little is seen that changes thatt. The Thor films at least addressed the history of the characters that led them to how they were in their respective films, Loki included. Did either TLJ or TFA do that? No. They didn't. So, they fundamentally failed to accomplish even that because everyone writing these films agreed that exposition are apparently useless narrative devices.

Yeah, but Anakin's storyline was actually well-constructed and consistently built on its themes as well as the convictions of the characters within it. With Rey, no such thing occurs. She is whatever the plot needs her to be at any moment and that is not a good look for a protagonist, especially one as bland as this.