ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Han: That's not how marketing works.

Yes, marketing IS a tool of course but Hollywood studios determine WHO and WHAT to market. You don't send out only a couple of actors for films like these to sitdown interviews with the NY Times, Good Morning America, etc unless these are the new stars of the new trilogy that you want the media to focus on and the public to learn about. You're not wasting media capital on Boyega when you can instead have Ridley do everything primarily on her own or try your darnest to get Driver to do interviews with her if he is supposed to be the true co-lead. That did not happen during TFA. That DID happen to some extent for the marketing of The Last Jedi after Finn had been sidelined in the script. If Ridley was not doing interviews with Driver, which she mostly wasn't, she was doing them alongside Mark Hamill.

Boyega was no longer doing interviews alongside her and that’s an edict typically determined by studios. Which helps explain not only why he was less seen in trailers this time around but why he was absent from promotion photos at Star Wars Celebration and why he wasn’t on the first official teaser/trailer poster. It was a complete 180 from how he was used in the promotion of TFA and many of us noticed it. And let’s be clear it is not as determined by how the story separated their characters because if you are still considered 1B to someone’s 1A you will continue ending up doing a healthy amount of interviews together regardless of the storyline. Boyega wasn’t getting any of that. It was a reduction of the importance of him and his character.


As for Jar Jar there is enough material out there for you to read or watch to make it clear that backlash against Jar Jar (including charges of racism) caused Lucas to greatly reduce his role in the prequels following Phantom Menace. If you want to deny it or decide not to look into any of this that is on you. I won’t waste my time trying to convince you that the sky is blue.

 

Well, on top of the incredibly contrived navigation and shield weaknesses you just mentioned, it was confirmed in the recent TROS Visual Dictionary that not a single officer or stormtrooper in the Sith Fleet had ever seen an actual battle before, thanks to having spent their entire lives cooped up in the Unknown Regions. Which, among other factors, really makes you wonder if the bad guys had any shot at winning this battle.

Like, this supposed "final battle to decide the fate of the galaxy" becomes incredibly stakeless and one-sided when you realize how laughably-inept the enemy is. This is beyond the whole "Ewoks beating stormtroopers on Endor". We literally have inexperienced soldiers manning clumsy star destroyers that will run into each other if one radio tower is destroyed, and can't activate their shields whilst in a planet's atmosphere.

What even is this.

What, you're telling me you didn't love: "I AM ALL THE SITH!" "I AM ALL OF THE JEDI"?

 

So you are agreeing. I'm confused. Like I mentioned in this thread or another, Disney went out of their way to market a diverse cast. I don't understand your point. And marketing isn't so black and white(not inferring race here, people) all the time. For example I guarantee you that Harrisons publicity for himself in this picture was largely on his terms. It's why you don't see Harrison Ford overload being paraded like a clown over at Disney Land Edge.

 

Rather than racism, perhaps it can be best described as subconscious biases on the part of the directors/writers caused Finn to be sidelined. He wound up being depicted in a racist and stereotypical manner but the directors/writers did not do so intentionally.

That's why it's important to have diversity both in front of and behind the camera.

 

It's the real life equivalent of Sterling Cooper's Advertising Agency entrusted with running a campaign promoting sexual/racial equality in the 50s/60s. To say there aren't glaring deficiencies at LFL in this regard would be planting your head in the sand ostrich-style. You don't have to be racist or sexist to cause damage because your are unintentionally ignorant.

 

Had audiences really enjoyed their banter and eaten up this new relationship, it would have made them appreciate the Canto Bight adventure more and drawn them into events following (fight with Phasma) much more. But audiences didn't enjoy their relationship much, I contend, because they didn't have much of that chemistry. I mean sometimes it worked and the two of them drew me in, but only at a couple of points. I'm just emploring here though. Maybe it isn't that important. Or maybe my own perceptions are outliers.

 

JB's chemistry was with Rey as the countless screen tests and ultimately TFA proved. Unfortunately RJ decided he could do his own thing in regards to character interaction record time and it would be awesome. And unfortunately he was wrong.

 

There's a clear argument for bias (whether conscious or unconscious) behind the camera, and that's not limited to the director role. I'm easier on JJ because despite some tropes I could do without, I liked how he set Finn up in TFA, and I saw enough in tRoS to give me the impression that he intended a better outcome for him. But someone, or perhaps multiple people involved with production at LFL did not agree with Finn being positioned as co-lead or failed to see the value in it.

That’s not a unique problem. Even Marvel had issues with diversity, with some major black, brown and female characters seemingly frozen in place as sidekicks. But the people running the MCU, namely Kevin Feige actively fought for better, and got Black Panther and Captain Marvel done, both with billion dollar box offices. And now they're doing Shang-Chi, and Ms. Marvel, Blade, sequels to BP and CM...the door is wide open.

LFL should have fought Finn (and Poe and Rey) to have been properly centered in this story, Skywalker Saga or not, and they need to do a lot better going forward.

 

The positioning of Rose as a love interest to distance Finn from Rey is the worst kind of writing. It assumes the audience is either not intelligent enough to figure out that that's what you're doing or that they won't care. And after how well Rey and Finn clicked, there was no way people weren't going to notice the difference.

I feel bad for KMT, because there was a story there for her character having lost her sister, and honestly I would have sacrificed Holdo in a heartbeat to see Rose fight to ensure her sister's death wasn't in vain rather than saddle her with the dual role of groupie/moral conscience to Finn. He didn't need either of those things.

 

I don't buy this nonsense that JJ's hands were somehow tied in regards to what he could or couldn't do with Finn. This WAS JJ's vision for Finn. He had two cracks at it with the Finn character and he failed to deliver. What we got is what he intended.

They can't all be center. There is no Skywalker saga "or not". It IS the Skywalker saga. So no matter what the Skywalkers will play a large role. Finn didn't need or have to be center. They just needed to give him a respectable story. Barely there force powers that aren't even acknowledged isn't respectable. Watching Rey, fight on her own, from the sidelines isn't respectable. Going by that leaked script from CT, Finn could have had a whole chunk of episode 9 to himself. Where he would have been a leader and a warrior. That's intending a great outcome for Finn. What JJ gave us is laughable in comparison.

 

I think what really makes it terrible writing is that there is no believable development towards the payoff. Rian dooms the Rose character without ever giving her a chance. For one, Rose has exactly two scenes in the entire movie where she shows anything resembling admiration / respect for Finn. At the very beginning when she think she's meeting some hero, and at the end where again she discerns that he is committed to the Resistance (i.e. Finn's Cave Speech). She is only written as having affinity towards Finn when he is associated with the Resistance. Every other time through out the movie (including after the Cave Speech) she's either lecturing him, correcting him, or reprimanding him. There is no basis to believe that Rose even has an emerging love for Finn because the bulk of their interaction suggests that she doesn't respect him.

I think also, Canto Bight isn't Finn's story, arguably most of the B-Plot isn't Finn's story. Until the Phasma fight, it is definitively Rose's story. She provides the beats, she provides the insights, she provides the history the context, she provides the lessons. Finn is her supporting character, not the other way around. They also sandbag Rey similarly (the story isn't really about her either until she boards the Supremacy, but obviously she doesn't suffer a demotion to the degree that Finn does).

 

The chemistry between Boyega and KMT was fine, it just failed to match the chemistry he had with Ridley in a similar but far better handled adventure in TFA. And that made the Canto Bight story all the more redundant. The failure for the story lays at the feet of Rian Johnson who didn't invest enough thinking into it and kept changing aspects of it probably because his heart wasn't into these characters. If he had done a much better job he would have likely created a character in Rose that would have intrigued audiences more and a that a following director would have been more interested in using. Like Lando in Empire Strikes Back.

Yes and no. Feige was convinced of the fruition of certain things before the Disney brass but at least he had the advantage of characters that had been introduced long before they reached the silver screen.

As for Finn, I just always got the impression that Boyega would have never been KK's first, second or third choice; that it was JJ alone who got him in that door. I may be wrong on that but that is what my instincts have told me ever since the immediate following of the Star Wars celebration event in 2015 (where the first official trailer was released) in which Kennedy flew to Japan with Ridley alone to plug the upcoming film, leaving Boyega behind. Granted the event in question had a slant towards women in the media in general, but I saw that as a convenient way for Kennedy to get away with that stunt. It was the only time during the promotion of TFA that Boyega was not by Ridley's side.

Finn's role in CT's script isn't much better. What would we have gotten? The uninspired Storm Trooper rebellion plot that most of us here never cared for? The certainty that Finn DIDN'T have force abilities? If the previous films don't set up the troopers to be real identifiable people outside of Finn in the first place, why would we care? And even if it looked good on paper you know that during the editing much of Finn's stuff would have been taken out for Rey, Kylo and even Poe's stuff. Speaking of Poe allowing Rey to fall for him but not having her fall for the guy whom she bonded with in TFA feels more like a slap in the face. Not to mention apparently continuing the Finn-Rose dynamic without making improvements to make their pairing interesting. No thanks.

 

I personally thought Boyegas best moments were with KMT, in terms of performance. He looked more comfortable in his role in TLJ in compared to TFA.

Boyega and KMT were genuinely funny in TLJ. Imo, in The Force Awakens, his speech cadence tries to mimic Luke in a new hope, a bit too much. When he's escaping the death star finn literally hits the same beast as Hamill's and even takes the helmet off in the same way. Some of that is surely JJ and Kasdan, maybe what it's what they were going for, but it wasnt until the Last Jedi that the role felt unique to the series.

Lastly, Driver and Ridleys chemistry was exponentially better. The highlight of the series, along with Luke and Han, but the former two actors are what gave this trilogy an identity.

 

I disagree. This is a trilogy. Every film in it is critical to the whole. That means that in order to make something resembling a complete story with this film you have to use what came before it.

TLJ killed off Luke. Unfortunately Leia passed, so they had limited options with her. Rey was insultingly told she was a nobody with no place in this story and left with the audience still not knowing what makes her who she is. An opening for Kylo's redemption was put on the table. And instead of investigating Finn's actual feelings and thoughts about what he did in TFA (his Force connection), TLJ had him running in place.

There is no time to train Finn in this film. There's little time to actually have him figure out his Force sensitivity and actually explore it with someone who would get, and the one person who would has to finish training, figure out who she is and save Kylo Ren. If JJ intended for Finn to join Rey in this film as a Jedi partner, TLJ made that nearly impossible to accomplish while tying the trilogy together. Some decisions have a cost.

At least JJ found a way for Finn to use his newly understood abilities to take down a Star Destroyer. That and the bits we get of Finn figuring out what he's been feeling gives a strong indication that in better circumstances JJ would have done more. It's not perfect by any means, but to me it's earned some credit.

 

Honestly, his exchange with Hux in this film does more for me than all of that time with Rose. Finn is actually allowed to be Finn in that scene and not be lectured to about what he should care about or told what to do or not do.

And it's a joy to watch him embrace that. This trilogy would have been alot better with more of that from Finn. Kylo's melodrama only served to weigh every around him down. Especially Rey. She could have used more joy (which she got with Finn). Looking at TLJ and then tRoS, it's not really clear why she doesn't fall to the dark side. After TFA, it's not clear that she's actually feeling anything for any of the sources of light around her, particularly Finn.

 

@griffon2k

Driver and Ridley are the heart of this trilogy. Theres real drama between the two. Its gripping and well characterized to the point where fans are hating on kylo ten--almost taking it personal. That is when it is a success, when the audience is saying to themselves "don't do it don't do it" or vice/versa. People were really picking sides, but that is just proof in successfully written characters.

Finn, Poe? Most of the times it's just things happening. Theres a few moments there, of course, but I'd say Boyega had the best chemistry with Isaac.

 

My experience with this forum is that a lot of people do like the stormtrooper rebellion plotline idea. I can't understand the viewpoint that a stormtrooper rebellion would have been anything but a huge improvement over the Nothing Finn does in TROS. I'll take that any day for sure, even if it means we don't get the extraordinarily underdeveloped, barely consequential FS plot TROS gave us.

I disagree that the previous films needed some grand setup for a ST rebellion. Frankly Finn's entire journey in TFA IS the setup for such a plotline. And it's a good one too.

Also who's to say the CT script doesn't have Finn as FS and the leakers just didn't mention it? It's hardly more than a throwaway line in TROS and wasn't mentioned in the leaks for that movie either.

 

We're just going to disagree on this I'm afraid. For me, turning Kylo into some kind of anti-hero/sympathetic villain felt inauthentic and smothered the story for me. It disadvantaged every single character in his orbit to justify it and to be honest, for me Driver was just better at playing the straight villain, someone who actually desired the darkness. TFA nailed that, and made you love to hate him. I just found myself hating him from TLJ forward.

And Rey, who spends a majority of her time in this trilogy tortured in some way at his hands does not feel in any sense strengthened by her interaction with him. In fact, it's just the opposite. Instead of learning what she is internally feeling herself, we spend far too much time exploring how she can save him, either by joining him in darkness or somehow getting him to take her hand, and it's not clear why we should care because she's still pretty much a cipher at the end of this latest film.

I would have preferred to chucked all of that in favor of more time with her and Finn where she's genuinely happy. TFA gave us joy in this trilogy that sadly it feels like it never returned.

 

You were around here to know that most people in the Finn thread weren't interested in a Storm Trooper rebellion because it felt like a consolation prize for Finn not being a Jedi. At the very least opinion was split.

How can you care about a rebellion of a bunch of soldiers if you only got to know one? If Rian had sent Finn back into the lion's den undercover for most of TLJ and he had met other troopers (make one of them Rose) then that does a better job of fleshing them out as people. Otherwise there is the possibility that audiences view Finn as the lone exception, the one trooper worthy of the Resistance.

There have been some on reddit who have apparently read the entirety of CT's script who claim that the Finn-Rose story is about as pointless and horribly executed as the one in TLJ. And no one has indicated that Finn displayed any force using ability in that script. And while you may not care much for how minute the references to these abilities may be in ROTS, I can tell you that revelation has already made Finn look far more interesting both in retrospect and going forward to a number of fans across the net. Hell, without that detail would any of us, even Finn fans,consider the possibility of reading stories about years-down-the-road Finn in future novels?

Might as well refer to him as Retcon Ren.

 

@griffon2k

That's what driver was playing, until jj flipped the script in episode 9. Kylo chose the dark side.

The angle that's being played is more so about Reys insight, in that she sees more than the other characters. She discovers the evil in The Force Awakens. Han tells her about the Force, about good and evil. She later learns that her experience with this evil was in fact Han Solos son. In the Last Jedi she then experiences these temptations of the dark side on her own. This is when she questions Luke about what really happened. It is at this point where, while she doesn't agree with it, she has an understanding of why he fell and the power behind that.

There was never any degree of tension with any other aspect really.

Ace stuff. It's the shining moment of the trilogy(or duology?) and really what the story is about.

 

This sounds a bit like racism to me. At least in regard to Boyega.

Why couldn't Finn continue to be part of the trilogy's center, along with Rey? He certainly was in "The Force Awakens". Even more so than Leia and Han were in "A New Hope". In fact, I don't see why this trilogy is part of the Skywalker saga in the first place. I don't regard it as such.

It was just bad writing to me, because I found this whole scenario badly executed.

 

This trilogy was a horrible, depressing mess, a monumental failure of epic proportions that has nearly killed the fandom. How do you make three whole films that only manage to evoke disappointment and sadness while adding little to the story that came before?

I'm just gonna say that I don't fully blame Colin or JJ for their versions of Episode IX and how they treated Finn; It seems abundantly clear that once Rian and Kennedy decided to put him on the back burner, it was a wrap for that dude. He wasn't coming back as a lead regardless, and it was an intentional move from the heads at LFL to position him that way.

CT/JJ both seem like they were stuck with what Rian gave them while also trying to go for a grander scale conflict that RJ failed to set up. As much as I hate that Finn wouldve still been sidelined, (I was resigned to that possibility a long time ago and stopped giving a damn after TLJ) I just like CT's ideas more than JJ's in general.

Like, if it's inevitable that with KK in charge, we were always going to get garbage-tier Finn no matter what, then at least give me a cool-ass Star Wars film. As much as I feel like JJ tried with TROS, he just ended up continuing to undermine Finn while also completely ruining the whole story and universe of Star Wars. In that way, the CT script feels like the lesser of two evils IMO.

That said, this whole trilogy was trash and pretty much never had any hope of being good under the current leadership at LFL.

 

I'm shaking my head, trying to find something to say. But I can't, because I'm just too flabbergasted to do so. Rey and Kylo Ren as the "heart and soul" of this trilogy? I just . . . never mind.

 

I re-read Before The Awakening (Rucka), and it's amazing how big of a disconnect there is between the the author and the film(s) with regard to his fighting abilities. The book explicitly tries to illustrate Finn's skill as a fighter, framing him as calculating and cunning. The films always made him seem inelegant or lucky to win a fight. (They didn't put enough emphasis on his marksmanship either.)

I feel like the films did everything in their power to undermine the inherent benefits that came with an origin story like the one Finn was given. A battle with the Knights of Ren would've been something to see. It would've, at the least, given them some kind of purpose beyond aesthetics to be discarded. I [kinda] wish they hadn't re-introduced them in TROS. The window of opportunity was gone.

Lucasfilm and their Story Group are responsible for Finn's lack of relevance post-TFA. Rose feels like she was an obstacle intentionally designed to forestall any opportunity Finn might've had to actually maintain his relevance. Finn's lack of chemistry with Rose is a consequence of how mismatched Boyega and Tran were as a dynamic (and the writing did them no favors).

 

You keep him in the center, then the balance is off. Characters would have to be added or subtracted. And I'd argue by the end of TFA he definitely was not center anymore. Rey moved to that position. Quite clearly.