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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST How TROS Has Affected Your View Of The ST Films

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Lord Jocusta, Dec 23, 2019.

  1. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I don't think it did much new.
     
  2. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 6, 2019
    Yeah, and it absolutely sucks. Try watching the joyful ending of ROTJ knowing that every last one of those characters are absolute fools who will be utterly destroyed by the same guy they thought they had beaten. Everything they had fought, bled, and died for was meaningless.
     
  3. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    At least they didn't ruin their own lives. Unbeknownst to our heroes they had the most evil, cunning, and ruthless villain in the galaxy personally out to get them. Even in the Orignal Trilogy Palpatine wasn't personally out to ruin Han and Leia. They weren't even worth his time to worry about. Palpatine only had interest in Luke because of his power. Blow up the Death Star didn't get Palpatine after them.

    This makes much more sense to me and adds meaning to why our OT heroes where they are in the ST. Palpatine actively attacked them and took revenge for everything they fought, bled, and died for. Palpatine's petty anger and bruised ego propelled him to erase their victory. He wanted to make all the good they did meaningless. And he almost got way with it.
     
  4. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    That's not what he's talking about. It's not about midichlorian counts ( she has that covered anyway due to her lineage ). It's more like what Luke says in the film. It just means that she can still be the hero Skywalker-figure even though she's a Palpatine.
     
  5. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2015
    What is there to misunderstand or figure out about The Last Jedi exactly? For all its would-be pretension and claims of masterpiece, it is by and large a run-of-the-mill, derivative and rather conventional entry.
     
  6. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I’d say TLJ needs to be recognized for having an unconventional attitude and voice for a Star Wars film, at least in regards to its most important plots (the side plots got a lot more juvenile, though,) even if, say, the substance of the film’s plot wasn’t actually going into new territory.

    I mean, I’ll argue that Rey Random doesn’t add anything new to Star Wars at all.... but the attitude and argument of TLJ are fully committed to that, and it is an unconventional answer for the Sequel Trilogy that had major ramifications going forward.

    Similarly, Luke’s story is ultimately about reconstructing after deconstructing him, which means it’s doesn’t actually have him put the series in a new road, but it does dare to tease it will for a while, in the same way that it argues that a new Force philosophy would be cool.... even if it does nothing with it.

    And while it really ends up being more about aversion rather than true subversion (since it really just doesn’t do what’s expected instead of actually offering up something different), it was still denying speculators what they thought would happen.
     
  7. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2019
    I thought TLJ did nothing new. Not really, other than suggest the idea of a romance between an immature woman and the man who had abused her three days or less before she became attracted to him. The whole "anyone can become Force sensitive" is a bit ridiculous and irrelevant. That's all I can say.
     
  8. Ubraniff Zalkaz

    Ubraniff Zalkaz Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 26, 2014
    I was thinking about the saga as a whole. To me it’s shaped like a triangle. The PT is the base as it’s the widest in scope. Then the OT shrinks things down. The ST shrinks things down further to a point where the final act is all of the Sith with Palpatine against all of the Jedi with Rey.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  9. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    Yet aside from the Skywalker family, we see anyone can be force sensitive, and this is shown throughout the saga. Without extensive backstories on any force sensitive individual, sans the Skywalker family, we have nothing to show any other force user has lineage to validate their force sensitivity. Not to mention, there had to be a first force sensitive somewhere along the line that would have been born of non-force sensitive parentage. Were Mace Windu's parents force sensitive? Obi-Wan's? What about Palpatine's? We also see that lineage is not a guarantee of force sensitivity in Palpatine's son. It skipped a generation to Rey. So actually, the whole "anyone can become force sensitive" idea is entirely relevant.
     
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  10. Lord Exor

    Lord Exor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 1, 2019
    I don't know why this ever warranted debate. Force sensitivity is either something you're born with or you're not, but lineage isn't a reliable factor for determining that. Neither the Jedi nor the Sith have historically dynastic orders, with most members culled from random families across the galaxy. This has been the case since the prequels, and now Rey's own father wasn't Force sensitive, so there's that. Lineage never mattered, but for some reason, the creatives at LFL seem to think this merits a dialogue.
     
  11. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    Everyone is force sensitive to a degree, but not to a degree that they can be successful Jedi Knights. Not everyone at that level necessarily becomes a Jedi though. Palpatine, Yoda, Anakin, Rey, Luke, Leia and Ben are all definitely prodigies. Windu, Jinn, and Kenobi are also very talented by nature. But you have to train it up, especially those outside of the prodigy class which means almost everybody. A very ordinary person could train for a lifetime with very limited results. I would contend that some very talented people such as Han Solo are above average in the Force but don't know it.

    EDIT: Dooku is presumably also in the "very talented" class.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  12. kylokrennic

    kylokrennic Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2020
    Great, solid reading.

    I might put Mace in the former category, however. Although, in all the other cases of the characters you mentioned in the prodigy category, they are all shown sensing something happening to a close one, or some wider galactic unfolding, and Mace seems to lack that facet in the films. That said, he does say that "the Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor" in ROTS, and he looks very pensive in Palpatine's office at the start of AOTC, but I'm struggling to come up with an example of him detecting something happening to someone somewhere, as the other characters do. Tough as old boots, but maybe not very sensitive.
     
  13. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    My own tiered list:
    Prodigies
    Anakin
    Luke, Ben Solo, Rey
    Leia*
    Very Talented
    Yoda, Palpatine*
    Mace Windu, Qui-Gon
    Obi-Wan, Dooku, Darth Maul, Snoke*
    Jedi Level
    All other named Jedi characters, at different levels of natural ability.
    Jedi Masters are selected from the higher-performing members of this class.
    Above Average
    Knights of Ren
    Han Solo, Padme
    Lando, Wedge, Jar Jar*
    Chirrut Imwe, Sith Alchemists
    Boba Fett, Jango Fett, Chewbacca*
    Average
    Shmi Skywalker, Admiral Akbar, Watto, Jabba the Hutt, Vice-Admiral Holdo*
    Uncle Owen, Biggs, General Riekan, General Dodona
    Greedo, General Madine, Sith Eternal
    Imperial Stormtroopers
    Below Average
    I don't know if this category exists. If it does, it would include many ordinary people but not as many as the average category. Perhaps there are species somewhere in the lore who are notably deficient in sensitivity to the Force, but all living beings have some sensitivity.

    *Asterisks indicate characters I suspect might rank higher than my initial guess.
     
  14. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    So I may have posted in this thread earlier, but I have a feeling that my view has changed since then. In short, I had a bit of a realization a couple of months ago about my own feelings regarding the ST in general. I basically realized that I had probably been unintentionally overlooking things I didn't like, making excuses for them, and just focusing on the positive. From there I realized more and more how much I don't actually like the ST. I never really got behind the notion of "head canon" before, but I have since sold my TFA, TLJ, and TROS Blu-rays once realizing that my son doesn't really like them anymore either (we do still have the option of watching them digitally or on Disney+, but I didn't really want them sitting on the shelf alongside the PT, Rogue One, and the OT anymore).

    To tie this into this thread more specifically, I don't really blame TROS for this. It was a pretty bad movie, IMO, but it also had an impossible task in trying to reconcile TFA and TLJ, while also wrapping up the Skywalker Saga as a whole. I think Abrams and Johnson did a pretty good job of making things difficult for each other, even if that wasn't actually their intention; they sabotaged each other even if they didn't mean to. At any rate, before it came out I was kind of in a "wait and see" mode regarding TROS as it related to the ST as a whole, since I tend to view the trilogies (and the Saga, ideally) as wholes. At the time I mostly liked TFA and some parts of TLJ, and I thought TROS could redeem them both and make the trilogy as a whole good; when it came out I think I gave it a lot of leeway so that I could view it as a success in that regard. But since then, with these realizations, I think I saw what I consider now to be general weakness in all three films, and therefore the ST itself.
     
  15. Darth Megatronus

    Darth Megatronus Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 17, 2020
    I thought TROS was so bad, it invalidated the whole trilogy.
     
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  16. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I find it hard to admit... but as bad as TROS is, I'm not sure anyone could have made a 3rd sequel that fixed the (IMHO) fundamental issues with TFA and TLJ. With each sequel to TFA seemingly being a reaction to the last film, it was always going to end badly. I'm just glad it's done.
     
  17. Awushi Awere

    Awushi Awere Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 11, 2020
    For me, TROS saved the ST and gave it a purpose. I knew it would decide about the trilogy's fate and it did not disappoint. It not only continued arcs like the desperate galaxy population but also stopped TLJ's trolling about Rey's lineage and the First Order as the true menace. It was challenging to fix the antagonists while also coming circle with the previous trilogies and to include Leia but with TROS Abrams and Terrio reached the almost impossible. I pay respect to them. Now I can even accept TLJ how it is - so Episode IX even upgraded at least one previous movie. How amazing? Also I like how independent it felt - even though it had to work with TFA's and TLJ's stuff. I mean......it was a rushed ride with some lazy writing but for me SW can be rushed and lazy sometimes - aslong it has epicness and heart! And this film has a lot of heart. Sometimes a bit messy, but beautiful and with a true message plus great visuals. I love it and for me it saved the ST and for now even SW as a franchise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  18. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Does the film establish that Palpatine's son wasn't force sensitive??? I can't remember that?
     
  19. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    This is according to the Wook, so take it for what it's worth:
    "The family bloodline continued after Sidious' death as a result of his obsession with immortality and the genetic experimentation that ensued through the works of his secret followers, the Sith Eternal cult. Using the knowledge he gained from his Sith Master. Darth Plagueis, Sidious preserved his consciousness within a new vessel—a clone of his original body. However, it was an inadequate host barely capable of containing his power with the dark side of the Force. More experiments were conducted in the hope of creating a stable vessel, but they were fruitless endeavors. Only one strandcast survived; a modified clone of the Emperor that lacked a strong connection to the Force. This strandcast ultimately produced a daughter, Rey, who inherited the Emperor's power. In order to protect his family from Sidious, Rey's father disappeared into a life of obscurity along with his daughter and her mother, becoming ordinary junk traders on the planet Jakku. They eventually sold their daughter to keep her hidden, but were captured and executed by the assassin Ochi before they could return for her."

    But I believe this to be established as canon, but I cannot guarantee it was established in the movie. But if his son was force sensitive, Palps would have used him instead of looking for his granddaughter. So it would make sense that force sensitivity can skip generations.

    Even if I am wrong about Rey's father, the context of this statement within my original comment remains true. We see force sensitivity being random. And actually, lineage being a deciding factor is the rarity and outlier.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  20. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    I wouldn't really say that it affected my view of this trilogy more than it reaffirmed what I had already thought of it based on TLJ and TFA. I don't get how you introduce cohesion to a trilogy that was already ridden with attempts at character arcs that crashed and burned before they even started, bland characterization, a lack of established stakes, no real long-term internal struggle on part of the protagonist, etc. TROS was largely the conclusion this trilogy deserved. I don't think there was any real attempt at making a good story after Arndt's departure and a lot of what TFA was fundamentally showed that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  21. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I’ll say this: for me personally, both Abrams and Johnson are guys I have some faith in, even though I dislike both of the last two ST films. And I still think that if you put either of them in charge of overseeing all three films as overall storytellers from the beginning, they would have been fine: I think RJ’s usually a better storyteller in terms of putting forethought into his writing (TLJ being an exception), and as much as Abrams is considered a starter and not a finisher, he has actually guided some TV series to a conclusion, while Johnson isn’t really a franchise guy but *can* work in them (see: Breaking Bad).

    ...But I do not think they’d ever be likely to work as complementary or helpful co-creators. Their styles of creation is too different, and their creative instincts do not align. Abrams prefers improvisation, film-construction-through-post-shoot-editing, will almost always sacrifice the original game plan for the chemistry his cast produces naturally, and while his Action Girl archetype may seem predictable to some, it is a firm standby he’s clearly comfortable with. Johnson belongs to the “do your editing in the writing phase” school of thought, doesn’t do much free-styling at all, and has a greater inclination towards plotting surprises regardless of whatever may seem more “natural,” and I’d say he’s clearly more at home with more “traditionally feminine” heroines who are a bit less naturally assertive.

    Neither is a bad style... but neither is suited to adapt to the other’s style as part of a continuing story. Abrams does better with someone who can adjust in a manner similar to him and shares a similar view of how to right a female heroine. Johnson does better with someone who can plan out a specifically set-up story and has a similar tale on gender dynamics to him.

    And neither is naturally inclined to think ahead to the end of a long term story by themselves - Abrams infamously likes set-ups and mysteries without clear answers, while Johnson has always been a one-shot guy with his own projects.
     
  22. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I don't have any issue with the notion that force sensitivity is not necessarily passed on, however, I'd be dubious of using wookipedia as a source of canon. To that ends, I don't believe the films establish either way if Palpatine Jnr. was force sensitive or not. It may even be an interesting story to tell re. how Palpatine's son rejected the teachings and trappings of his father, and planned his escape from the imperial/Sith dynasty.

    I personally have very little faith in Abrams as a filmmaker. I don't think he actually has the filmmaking ability to make 'original' films that can evolve/move concepts forward, let alone create a compelling story that can be crafted over 3 films. Johnson, on the other hand, is head and shoulders above Abrams in terms of technical skill and artistic eye (IMHO), so I would have had more faith in Johnson taking the reigns for all 3. However, we are where we are... and we'll never know if the ST would have been better if Johnson had taken sole charge. I suspect it would have been 'better'... or at least more consistant with itself. Ultimately, I will always think the key issue was in the strategy of rushing the films to market without a creative in charge of the end to end process. That and not having a story worthy of putting on the big screen.
     
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  23. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Good post. I find it fascinating about your relatively recent change of opinion on the ST, when so many dug in on one side or the other immediately after each film (and especially by the time 2nd film was viewed). Would you mind sharing anything specific that made you realize that you were "making excuses for them", etc?
     
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  24. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    TROS cemented my view of the ST as completely redundant. There's nothing new, just more of the same.
    That's not to say I haven't gotten enjoyment out of all three films, or that I regret watching them. I just feel that they might as well never have been made, because they serve no purpose in the grand scheme of things.
     
  25. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    This is pretty much how I feel.
     
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