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ST What's your opinion on Sheev Palpatine coming back as the main villain of the Sequel Trilogy?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Sep 8, 2020.

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Do you like the idea of them bringing him back as the main and final villain of the Sequel Trilogy?

  1. Love it, and I'm glad they brought him back

    36 vote(s)
    11.8%
  2. Hate it, and think that he should have remained dead

    172 vote(s)
    56.4%
  3. Have mixed feelings about it

    97 vote(s)
    31.8%
  1. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Here's the man Filoni on redemptions.

     
  2. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004


    It limits the overall story being told moreso than the character of Anakin.

    Consider: The prophecy is that the Chosen One will bring Balance to the Force. Presumably this means destroying the Sith. Right?

    Only this one particular character can bring balance to The Force? Only this character can end the Sith? The PT establishes a prophecy that sets confines, structures, rules and boundaries on who can do what in the saga that weren't there prior to 1999.

    That is problematic and you see it immediately whenever we get post ROTJ dark side villains. Hardcore fans question how there can be Dark Siders, and they are reminded that the Dark Side does not mean Sith. Unless it does.

    Before this prophecy it was NO problem for The Emperor (or any Dark Siders) to be the big bad in a post ROTJ galaxy. Star Wars is pulpy, serialized, and comic book-esque at it's roots. The Chosen One prophecy really strains the ability for the saga to embrace that going forward. Meaning, it tips the balance of Star Wars narrative more towards mythological themes and away from pulpy serial nature.*
    * I think this is why many fans have found The Mandalorian so reinvigorating. It's Star Wars unshackled from the mythology that, while deepening the saga, has also bogged it down a bit.

    That said, the Chosen One Prophecy also puts a bunch of baggage on Vader/Anakin that wasn't there before. It limits the character.

    With Episode 1, the focus of the Star Wars saga was shifted/re-contextualized and we are now told (by Lucas) that the saga, galaxy, and The Force itself basically centers around the villainous Darth Vader and that was always the intention. Yet, this simply wasn't the case before.

    Instead of simply being a fallen Jedi Knight, who was a great pilot/friend/student turned evil, Vader/Anakin is now Anakin Skywalker: The Space Savior/Messiah. Vader becomes a quasi religious/mythical allegory rather than just a badass character from a space fantasy.

    Now, every move this character makes (either as Anakin or as Vader) has long reaching effects that can reshape/alter the galaxy, The Force, and the saga itself. When writing for such a character, one has to consider the boundaries and limits that weren't previously there. Now, the character of Vader has to be written in a certain way so as not retcon undo all the mythological trappings that go with it.

    The plus side of this: You get some really cool stories like the Mortis arc in The Clone Wars.

    The downside: Vader isn't as narratively nimble as he once was. Compare how he was written and portrayed in comics/novels prior to 1999 to how he was written and portrayed after. Rarely is Vader this badass Dr. Doom-like villain that looms over events**. Now, he's is almost always written/portrayed as tortured/fallen angel that really is trying to find redemption and a path back to his dead wife.

    **Rogue One is so refreshing in this regard because it's one of the rare times we've seen Vader untethered from his "Chosen One/Anakin" mythology. Which makes sense because they were trying to get the look and feel of Episode 4.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  3. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    I mean, TCW and the Mortis arc are more at fault for this than the actual PT since a lot of prior Legends material concerning both the Clone Wars and the Dark Times did not approach things in this fashion. Mortis, in particular, was just an exercise in trying to "mystify" the Force more that pretty much backfired as it was attempting to solve a problem that never existed in the first place.

    It's not problematic when you consider the Chosen One prophecy in the way I described (which is far more realistic).

    "Quasi" as in, not actually one. Also, I don't get how Anakin's story being what it is restricts him from being a badass space fantasy character.

    That's giving the Mandalorian way more credit than it actually deserves considering that there were many stories like it in Star Wars before it ever was made.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  4. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    I love the way Mortis descibed the force. light and dark, one can't exist whitout the other. THey are the ying and yang. too mutch light or dark could be undoing of all as the father explains.
     
  5. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Except it went against the way the Force was generally described in the movies, which means it's a garbage arc IMO. There is no such thing as "too much light" in the usual way that SW content describes the Force. There isn't even a "light side" per se... there's the Force as a whole, and there's the dark side of the Force. The dark side is a natural part of the Force, but usage of it by darksiders like Sith makes it grow beyond its natural size, thus throwing the Force out of balance. Or harmony, to use a term that might be less confusing. And yeah, the Yin and Yang comparison is wrong but it's pushed anyway, since there's even a barely modified Yin Yang image actually in the Mortis episodes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  6. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Well it comes directly from GL soo. Too it matched well with the PT and the ST. Could work with OT too. I mean too mutch could be dangerous for all we know. And force is the light as from what mortis and the ST explains.
     
  7. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    As was pointed out, I see this as just and extension from Lucas about the entire Chosen One Prophecy. In many ways, this is a more "true" vision of what it all means because, unlike the Legends material, this one came right from the source...GL.

    I must of missed this. Where/what did you post? I am interested.

    Quasi "not actual" to us in the real world. It is the closest thing to actual religion in the SW universe as far as the Jedi are concerned. No?

    Sure, but not many were presented on the grand stage of a TV series/movie series. Meaning, the causal public (and even fans) were not exposed to many of those stories.
     
  8. PymParticles

    PymParticles Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2014
    I'm in mixed feelings. I think it connects the entire saga together to have the same antagonist throughout, and it's pretty on brand for Palpatine to 1) have lied to Anakin about not knowing the secret to immortality while keeping the knowledge to himself, and 2) for him to continue manipulating events in the galaxy for thirty years after he's been presumed dead. My issue isn't with Palpatine being resurrected, it's that it was done kinda of lazily and without much explanation (although you can make broad assumptions), where his return is announced to the audience in the first sentence of the opening crawl, as opposed to being something discovered by the audience and the characters within the first 20 minutes.
     
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  9. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Can you at least understand why other people see the ST as nothing more than a weaker version of the OT with a fresh paint job though?

    Lucas never even mentioned his TRAGEDY OF DARTH VADER narrative until after AOTC. The Prophecy and the force getting balanced and all of that other jazz were clearly not invented until he sat down to write TPM. It's not hard to figure out when Lucas is telling the truth and when he is lying just based on when he states something.

    At this point, I don't give two poodoo's what Lucas's idea is of the force. And I don't listen to Filoni either since he just parrots what Lucas used to say.

    The force started off as a field of energy. Whether you used that energy for good or bad was entirely up to the person using it. Trying to make it seem like the force itself can be either good or bad just comes across as juvenile.

    And what makes it more confusing is that TPM introduced two aspects of the force; the Cosmic force and the Living force. And apparently both of those have a light and dark side so now you have four different sections of the force.

    Oh, and don't forget the medichlorians that live in your cells and tell you the will of the force. Meaning, A) you've now got a specific type of bacteria that exists in the universe that is able to live inside ALL varying types of creatures with completely different biological makeup. B) these bacteria apparently can't be corrupted because it never dawns on anyone that the medichlorians could just be lying to you. C) The force is apparently sentient now and has its own will.

    But... there is also a prophecy that says one person will kill off the last of a group of evil force users and this will somehow bring balance to all of this. Even though the Sith aren't a universal constant which means that someone else could piece together how to be a Sith just like the first Sith did, so... it's all essentially meaningless.

    Anyone else need a drink?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  10. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Without a doubt. I get it. For me, a lot of beloved sequels are essentially what you describe. Terminator 2, every Rocky movie, Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade, and even Return of the Jedi. These are all essentially rehashes of the original film with a few modifications or updates.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the Prequels and was excited by the new horizons that Lucas took us to, but I also found it lacking in other ways. With the ST, I was really happy that Star Wars got back some of the elements that made me a fan in the first place even if it sacrificed originality to deliver us back into the look/feel/experience of the OT universe. To me, the ST is much less of a departure from the Original Trilogy than the PT is.

    Yep. Like all great artists, Lucas bends the narrative to serve his current headspace with his art. He never wanted Han to be viewed as a cold blooded killer? Why didn't he make Greedo shoot in the first place? The fact is, we change and we age/grow. My guess is that Lucas looked back at his original film with the eyes of a father and felt more of a responsibility towards kids growing up in a world of gun violence and (like Spielberg did with ET) changed the shootout to be softer or more justified.

    And this is it, right? We all have our own individual takes on what Star Wars (and elements like The Force) mean. Ergo, I love all three trilogies because none of the offend my Star Wars sensibilities. I understand why some prefer some trilogies (or films) over others.
     
  11. Anakin_and_Padme

    Anakin_and_Padme Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2010
    I'm sorry for the late response. I see what you're saying. I mainly felt as if Reylo was going to happen based on the fact that Kylo was going to get a redemption arc and because of who his parents were. I thought Rey would be the one to help him through the process of leaving the First Order. I'm a big fan of the Skywalker family and I don't think Disney or George would ever make someone from that bloodline irredeemable. This was made even stronger for me when Kylo killed the man in the opening scene after he was told that he couldn't escape who he was. As soon as Kylo was introduced as having direct ties to the Skywalkers, I knew this trilogy was going to focus on him instead of just Rey, Finn, and Poe. Disney misled everyone with the trailer for TFA because I thought Finn was going to be the main star and that Rey would've had a different role.

    I didn't think there was romance between them in TFA, but I thought that the film was setting the stage for it and his redemption in the following movies. J.J Abrams commentary on one of the scenes between them made this even more apparent to me. I believe if they had wanted Rey to have her own arc, they should've made Kylo the son of someone else. Maybe they could've even had her being the daughter of Han and Leia instead.

    I thought the main villains were Hux, Snoke, and the First Order because of how they were introduced. Hux's speech before the destruction of the planets terrified me. Plus his rivalry with Kylo convinced me that there was nothing he wouldn't do in order to achieve power. I don't think Palpatine needed to be reintroduced. They had the perfect antagonists with the First Order and dropped the ball. Then they decided to use Palpatine as a backup plan. I remember Daisy saying that even while they were filming IX, everyone still wasn't sure if they wanted her to be connected to Palpatine.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  12. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Nothing about the way the PT presents the prophecy in Mortis is actually reflected in the films though. Canonicity is not what's being argued. It's thematic and narrative consistency.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  13. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    First thing is first: box office numbers don’t matter to me when discussing these films. TFA was the first Star Wars film in decades so that’s a huge advantage. I can’t even count that and it doesn’t point towards being a better film which is really subjective. It’s a very safe film with some setups in it. The ending scene is wonderful though and I do enjoy it.

    As for Kylo? I still found him the most interesting part of the series. Sorry but Rey just didn’t do anything for me. Now, maybe that’s a writing problem so I’ll grant that. I also agree with you that Finn especially got left behind and his character ultimately ended up going nowhere. He started a solid arc in TFA but got reset and sucked into the "Rose" vortex, never to be seen again. Then they reset him again in TROS. Total waste. Poe was also wasted and never got much to work with. I think the sequels have inconsistent and bad writing which is why for most people they are the least favorite trilogy.

    I suppose TLJ did throw out a lot of what got started and that didn’t help. I actually find Last Jedi, sans canto bight the best of the three sequels but that’s just me. Oh well, we’ll have to disagree here. Maybe Daisy Ridley suffered due to bad writing but I wasn’t impressed with her performance and not at all intrigued by her character.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  14. Avnar

    Avnar Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2007
    It was a terrible idea. The result speaks for itself...
     
  15. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I agree with this.
     
  16. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004
    It actually fits the SW formula.

    HE IS THE ULTIMATE FINAL BOSS in the CT and the PT so it makes sense that he will be the Final Boss for the ST.

    In ROTJ, how can we have a Force power never been seen before in the previous 2 that will show the unstoppable power of the bad guy who the hero has to stop?? Introducing the Force lightning while having the powerful Vader be scared of him throughout the movie.

    In ROTS, from obliterating Jedi Masters in seconds to knocking out the most powerful Jedi to throwing giant Senate pods like nothing all while manipulating everyone to become the Emperor.

    So in TROS, it’s just logically the Emperor has to be in it showing the most powerful feats of the Force from coming back from the dead to freezing and absorbing the Dyad all the way to blasting the entire Rebel Fleet.

    You can’t just have a new BIG BAD on the SW movies that created the character of Palpatine. He is the original and to make a new one just like him will just be failed copy cat. Hence why Snoke ended up to be Sidious all along.

    Totally fits the SW themes. In the PT, Palpatine was SECRETLY the disguise of Sidious while in the ST, Snoke was SECRETLY the clone puppet of Sidious back from the dead.
     
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  17. Supreme Leader Kylo Ren

    Supreme Leader Kylo Ren Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 29, 2019
    Disappointing.

    I would've liked for Snoke to have been the main villain instead.

    Bringing back Palpatine only served to lessen the impact of Return of the Jedi, which was done in Star Wars Legends. But at least then Palpatine was dealt with relatively easily. In canon he brings down Luke's New Jedi Order, destroys the New Republic, and brings back a fledgling Empire.
     
  18. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Upon seeing TFA, I had no doubt that Kylo was one of protagonists and I got a lot of downvotes, mostly of "But but what about ___" [insert character or characters of choice] variety, for saying that. I never understood the line of thinking that a Skywalker should be less important or just a generic villain than non-Skywalkers, in a Skywalker family saga. It didn't matter if there was one or two (those who held onto ReySky or Rey Solo to bitter end) a new Skywalker was going to have a protagonist role because it was common sense. And considering that his parents and grandparents had an epic love stories, he was going to have one too. Also a common sense.

    So anyway, Rey Palaptine made sense as a contrast to "bad Skywalker" from the start. It's just that outside of her jabbing fight style and snarling there wasn't much to take as a proof of that particular lineage. Kenobi made sense if they wanted a union of 2 powerful bloodlines but given that nobody knew what they wanted beyond "we need to recoup 4B investment in buying LFL ASAP" it's hard to debate one or the other.

    I will stick with that Rey Palaptine would have been great if she'd been revealed in TFA and the movies focused on what Terrio calls "the House of Skywalker and the House of Palaptine" including Sheev's early return (translation: not in the last movie) and moved away from OT formula (including FO/Resistance that barely anyone liked).
     
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  19. Anakin_and_Padme

    Anakin_and_Padme Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2010
    I didn't have a problem with Reylo. However, I think it should've been set up better.

    I agree. I think Rey Palpatine would've been fine if they had it planned like that since TFA. I would've been very interesting to see the House of Skywalker and the House of Palpatine concept.
     
  20. dogprivilege

    dogprivilege Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    I think Palpatine coming back in person would always be cheap and weird. It's the most shallow way of tying the saga together. I get the idea that you need to tie the 9 episodes together even further than just having some next-gen skywalkers, because then you also need a broader 9 episode story arc that makes Episode IX feel like a culmination to what happened in Episode I.

    I think the ST should have accomplished this by going deeper into force lore and the idea of "balance" and connecting the skywalkers/the new Jedi to some broader cycle of light/dark. It's easy to see how you could connect Palpatine to all this without full on resurrecting him.

    The ST should have seen itself as a follow up to the PT in a way, building on and exploring the concepts introduced there- balance, the idea of cheating death, the limits of force powers...etc
     
  21. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    The idea that TROS was wrapping up 9 movies instead of just ST is a baffling one. I don't think that anyone really believes this is the end because that's not how franchises work. One day they will milk Skywalker nostalgia again. So wrapping up just 3 movies would have been sufficient and certainly wouldn't feel forced and rushed. IMO, return of Palaptine had a lot to do with the decision to make TROS the end of the whole Saga and not just the end of ST.
     
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  22. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Good stuff here. I like the ideas you present. The balance between the dark and light sides of the force is especially intriguing. Just another "could of, would of, should of" for the ST. I wouldn’t have minded Palps Being connected, as you said. Even a force ghost appearance or audio scene probably would have been OK too. Anything but what we got which was based on pure panic and laziness.

    Interesting point about TROS being the end of it and that was the intention. I’m glad it is. Just nowhere to go from here except for pure rehashed plot lines and situations. No thanks. :)
     
  23. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    I agree with No Thanks now that the whole thing is a rehash. But if they went in a different direction, which TLJ cleaned the slate for, than they wouldn't have to end 9 movies but only 3. And by 3 I don't mean open ended ending. Each trilogy had a very self-contained ending so you can end 3 movies like it's finale whether you plan more or not.
     
  24. wobbits

    wobbits Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2017
    It's an opinion. An opinion is relative to each individual's personal views on the subject. You don't have to agree with my opinion but it does not require you to be the deciding judge if my opinion is right or wrong. I would have been wrong IF I outright said that Palps was the NOT the mastermind or not a consistent part of the story through 6 films. etc. However I did not say that. @godisawesome stated more eloquently what I was feeling regarding the emotional priority that the Skywalkers hold as a family in the saga and what I understood Lucas intended for the story. I read an interview where he mentioned that Star Wars is about the Skywalker family and what happens in the galaxy during their story. George has also said that Star Wars is a story about family and hope, something uplifting, which is what I get when I watch the first 6 movies. It's uplifting to see Vader save Luke and shake off the mantle of slave at the end of ROTJ. Just as it's uplifting to see Leia adopted by the Organa's at the end of ROTS.

    Palpatine back as the villain isn't uplifting to me. It absolutely affects the situation surrounding Anakin's sacrifice at the ending of ROTJ for me in a negative way. The dumb line they gave Hayden isn't enough for me to buy into what they were trying to sell as justification for this decision.

    You may not care what Lucas says, however as the creator of Star Wars, I am interested in his feelings on anything regarding it.

    Nothing I have seen over 40 years translates into "this is Palpatine's story" and he absolutely had to come back as the only thing that ties the 9 films together. Just like there were other ways to write the story for Rey, Kylo and Finn, there were so many other potential ways a villain could have been either a better written Kylo or someone completely new. I don't buy into the idea that it absolutely had to be Palpatine and no one else.

    You don't have to like or agree with my opinion but you know what? I see opinions all the time here I don't agree with and I manage to scroll right on by without telling the poster they are wrong for having said opinion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  25. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017